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    Your Elvenar Team

Questions About Net Zero KP Swap Method

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper, Buddy Fan Club Member
I am curious how the Net Zero KP swap method works. I think I have e.g. seen @SoggyShorts mention it?

As I understand it then you mostly put KP in your own wonders and then you ask your fellows to donate KP corresponding to the values of the chests. So if there are 3 chests worth 15, 10 and 5 KP then you ask 3 fellows to donate 15, 10 and 5 KP. So the owner of the wonder gets all the KP in the chests, and the fellows get the runes (and thereby mainly donate to help the owner as most will just get the same amount of KP back that they donate).

I think I can see that this would work great in the ideal case, but I have a lot of questions. I think I know the answers to some of them, but would like to check if I have understood it correctly!

1. When do you ask fellows to donate KP? I assume it should be shortly before you complete it yourself: as the only reward for the fellows are the runes, so they should get their KP back fast.

2. Do you post a new thread for each wonder or do you post all wonders in the same thread?

3. How much info do you list in the message? Do you list all the rewards such that everyone can see which chests there are?

4. I assume fellows should reply to the message that they will donate before they donate to avoid double donations where 2 members donate at the same time?

5. What do you do when 2 members donate at the same time and 1 member thereby donates more than they get back? Does the owner then donate to that members wonder? But then the owner needs to donate the difference plus the value of the chest that the owner gets back?

6. If a stranger jumps in and bumps members then I guess the owner needs to compensate the bumped members as described in 5?

7. If strangers have already donated to the wonder do you then just bump them down until they don't earn KP (but maybe runes)? Or do you try to bump them further down? I guess that would be cumbersome if the owner then needs to compensate those members?

8. If a member has donated less than a chest is worth (e.g. 3 KP), what do you then do? Do you ask that member to donate more (e.g. 2 KP), or do you just bump that member, or does the owner loose 2 KP if that member doesn't donate more?

9. What do you do if there are less KP left in the wonder than the chests are worth?

10. Is it cumbersome to move from KP Swap Threads/Shout Outs to Net Zero?

11. Any other problems I have not thought of?
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
3. How much info do you list in the message? Do you list all the rewards such that everyone can see which chests there are?
None of my FSs participate in the net zero system. My biggest issue is with the above, until very recently I had no idea that the wonders only return kp in AWKP instants of 20 or 5. On mobile all you see is 2 purples and a blue, no AWKP total. So if swapping over I think it would be important to make sure everyone knows they key. Blue = 5AWKP purple = 20 AWKP. Just imo.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
1. When do you ask fellows to donate KP? I assume it should be shortly before you complete it yourself: as the only reward for the fellows are the runes, so they should get their KP back fast.
Yes. We ask that folks post it when it's at least half full, and finish it off within 24 hrs. If it's TOO full, you could run into sniping and the owner missing out on a few kp when an outsider puts in only 3 of the last 5 kp, for example.
2. Do you post a new thread for each wonder or do you post all wonders in the same thread?
We have two threads: A "swap" thread where all AWs are posted, and an "admin" thread to communicate about any issues, shard requests, etc.
3. How much info do you list in the message? Do you list all the rewards such that everyone can see which chests there are?
We list only the name of the person and the AW they want filled. We do copy/paste existing AWs to keep them all in one message, and then update the list when any are filled or added, like this imaginary string of messages:

1. Me:
Kekune - Needles​

2. Soggy:
Soggy - Pyramid [NEW]​
Kekune - Needles​

3. Fairy:
Soggy - Pyramid​
Kekune - Needles [DONE]​

4. Me:
No active AWs.​

4. I assume fellows should reply to the message that they will donate before they donate to avoid double donations where 2 members donate at the same time?
We don't bother with this. We have a pretty rapid/active swap and doubling up rarely occurs. I think for most groups it won't be a huge issue, but I could see others preferring to do it.
5. What do you do when 2 members donate at the same time and 1 member thereby donates more than they get back? Does the owner then donate to that members wonder? But then the owner needs to donate the difference plus the value of the chest that the owner gets back?
Yes. If anybody gets shorted, the owner (who profited at their expense) repays it. If it's more than 5, that often means coordinating which AW the person shorted will post next so the person repaying can buy the top chest + whatever they owe.
6. If a stranger jumps in and bumps members then I guess the owner needs to compensate the bumped members as described in 5?
Yup.
7. If strangers have already donated to the wonder do you then just bump them down until they don't earn KP (but maybe runes)? Or do you try to bump them further down? I guess that would be cumbersome if the owner then needs to compensate those members?
It depends. We usually keep buying chests at face value, regardless of outsiders. Our goal is for nobody in our group to lose kp, but we're neutral on others. So if someone outside bought a chest for 9kp, they'll keep getting bumped until they fall below 10kp. If they spent 10 to begin with, they'll get their 10 back.
8. If a member has donated less than a chest is worth (e.g. 3 KP), what do you then do? Do you ask that member to donate more (e.g. 2 KP), or do you just bump that member, or does the owner loose 2 KP if that member doesn't donate more?
If anybody participating in the swap didn't follow the rules, we point it out in the admin thread so they can correct it. Our goal is fair treatment, and no swap participant should lose out at someone else's expense. We have some fellows who don't join in the swap, and they all know that if they "speculate" in anybody's AWs they'll be treated just like an outside speculator would. So they don't. :)
9. What do you do if there are less KP left in the wonder than the chests are worth
If folks post at the right time, there shouldn't be. But if that happens, then it's no longer possible to do a true net zero. We've adjusted by basically knocking 5 off of the cost of the bigger donations, etc. to try to get it close. Best approach is to avoid this.
10. Is it cumbersome to move from KP Swap Threads/Shout Outs to Net Zero?
Nope. It's basically the same thing, except in net zero you all agree on how much chests will cost, whereas shout-outs are (usually) sort of a free-for-all. The biggest issue/change for us was requiring folks to keep enough kp on hand to make donations and level up AWs within that 24-hr period; a lot of folks didn't always have, say, 60kp on hand to buy a big chest.
11. Any other problems I have not thought of?
Make sure you expect everyone to check their AW for errors at the end, right before they level. They need to verify that nobody who bought a chest in good faith got bumped. We also require that folks buy chests from the top down to avoid confusion and reduce errors.
 
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Guurt The Destroyer

Well-Known Member
I won't answer any of your questions as I think they were answered well already.

I will say that my FS uses this system. I think it is great. It is much better than the last system we used.

What I like about it:

I am fully in charge. I can donate or not. When I do donate I don't have to come back to see if I need to add more KP to get a Runes reward.

I can put my AW up whenever I want.

This system is fantastic for getting Runes. It does favor people that are on-line more often, but that is good for everyone as when people post their AW they want it filled up so they can move on. With the other system we used the runes were all eaten up by the most advanced players. It was hard to get runes, but now I can just check an AW. Do I want that spot? Yes. Contribute. Done. I don't have to worry about someone coming along later and out bidding me.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
The only down-side to net zero, it seems to me, is the amount of administration. Somebody has to keep track of it all, or am I missing something? If you can find a good administrator it seems it might work well.

AJ
 

Guurt The Destroyer

Well-Known Member
The only down-side to net zero, it seems to me, is the amount of administration. Somebody has to keep track of it all, or am I missing something? If you can find a good administrator it seems it might work well.

AJ

The administration is handled by the players. There is one thread for a player to post their AW and the other AW open for KW. There is one thread for players to resolve problems. No need for administrator.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz yes, you must be missing something. It's incredibly low maintenance. Easy to administer, and easy for members to use. Far, far easier and fairer than the endless threads system, no spreadsheets required. We literally have two message threads for the whole system; we have to reset them every so often but otherwise it's self-managing.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
how does the Net-Zero approach stop poach'n/snipe'n ??

Lets say a AW offers 7 chests, of those 3 have shards, and are 40,30,20,15,10,5,5 ...
1st person who donates 40 is guarenteed thier 40 back ??? Noone can donate more ??
So once the 40, 30, and 20 are filled, noone else can go for shards ??? Thus even if this
AW needs 1000 to complete, best the owner gets is 135 awkp help ?

Basically only 7 of the 24 possible FS members can help here, hmmmmm ?????
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I reread Soggy's post and see that it's really quite simple as long as you have 7 other players wanting to do it and who have the KP stored that they need. We use Fast Shout Outs in much the same way, except the only person who has to have a lot of KP in storage is the owner of the AW, and you don't ever put in more than 7kp. And it's most profitable since you don't have to keep track of the blue, purple, green, lime, magenta and all that KP icons.

Here's how it works:

A player wants to upgrade their AW. They save up their Instant KP to do so AND, they don't put any on the AW. Which almost always means all the chests get taken by the fellowship because few to no players put KP on AW's that haven't been started yet, right?. So now that they have all the KP they need, they post FSO [Name of AW] in either chat or in a message. That's all there is to it until the chest have been taken.

The next person -- the first to respond, goes to the AW and counts the number of UNCLAIMED chests and puts that amount of KP in. That gives them the highest chest at the lowest cost possible. So 7 is the max. The next goes, counts the unclaimed chests and put in that amount. This continues until the last chest and that player puts into chat or the message thread, "done." The owner then finishes it off ASAP. The whole thing takes only a few hours at most, and the profits are about as high as they can go.

Of course, occasionally somebody might jump in but if they do, well, how much is everybody losing? None! Even if they take the top spot with a 8KP contribution, everybody else is still making KP. So we ignore it and carry on.

Of course, to maximize profit you could just all put in 1KP since they chests are assigned in order and it might be that people both put KP in at the same time, but then one of them is just bumped down one chest...not a great loss even if you don't get the last chest you only lose 1KP!

No administration necessary and maximum profit for all who participate.

AJ
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
AJ , so everyone donates 7KP or like the 1KP example ??
So then 1 player sees this system , and goes to all 24 members
and adds 7 kp to every AW they own... like you said, early bird & all....
Then the resentment starts, the FS is piss'd cause even following
rules, 1 player just prolly managed to get most of the top shard rewards
on every AW that FS has ......

Im trying to understand why this method is less mess'd up than ohh say
a 5,10,20 kp thread, cause if 20 ppl donate 20 each, only the 1st 3-4 get
shards, even if everyone donated just as much as everyone else.
 

Guurt The Destroyer

Well-Known Member
I reread Soggy's post and see that it's really quite simple as long as you have 7 other players wanting to do it and who have the KP stored that they need. We use Fast Shout Outs in much the same way, except the only person who has to have a lot of KP in storage is the owner of the AW, and you don't ever put in more than 7kp. And it's most profitable since you don't have to keep track of the blue, purple, green, lime, magenta and all that KP icons.

Here's how it works:

A player wants to upgrade their AW. They save up their Instant KP to do so AND, they don't put any on the AW. Which almost always means all the chests get taken by the fellowship because few to no players put KP on AW's that haven't been started yet, right?. So now that they have all the KP they need, they post FSO [Name of AW] in either chat or in a message. That's all there is to it until the chest have been taken.

The next person -- the first to respond, goes to the AW and counts the number of UNCLAIMED chests and puts that amount of KP in. That gives them the highest chest at the lowest cost possible. So 7 is the max. The next goes, counts the unclaimed chests and put in that amount. This continues until the last chest and that player puts into chat or the message thread, "done." The owner then finishes it off ASAP. The whole thing takes only a few hours at most, and the profits are about as high as they can go.

Of course, occasionally somebody might jump in but if they do, well, how much is everybody losing? None! Even if they take the top spot with a 8KP contribution, everybody else is still making KP. So we ignore it and carry on.

Of course, to maximize profit you could just all put in 1KP since they chests are assigned in order and it might be that people both put KP in at the same time, but then one of them is just bumped down one chest...not a great loss even if you don't get the last chest you only lose 1KP!

No administration necessary and maximum profit for all who participate.

AJ

This system isn't very fair. Players get back more than they put in, which means the most active players get the most back. You could easily have a system where one or two players manage to monopolize the chest rewards and thus they get an unequal amount of rewards compared to the rest of the FS.

With NetZero everyone gets back exactly what they put in. There is no imbalance caused by players being more or less inactive with regards to KP. With NetZero I could take the top spot for every AW and I wouldn't gain any advantage over the other players in my FS.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
how does the Net-Zero approach stop poach'n/snipe'n ??
Snippers are out for KP profit, and that is basically impossible in a net0 swap.
In 5 years of playing and using a WS system to upgrade over 10,000 wonders, I haven't seen players jump into a wonder to grab runes at a KP loss more than perhaps a dozen times.
In fact, if an outsider wanted a rune they could get one for free any time by simply asking. Since the goal of a Net0 is for the owner of a wonder to get the full value of chests as a discount no one cares who takes the chests.

If a member does happen to need runes they simply use the Admin Thread to post
"I'm looking for TimeWarp Runes"
and other players will either message them directly or reply in that thread
"After my current wonder, I will be upgrading my TW next"
and then the player in need of runes can pre-reserve that top rune spot.
In practice, this is surprisingly rare since mostly only newer cities need runes*, but when it does happen it's awesome because 4-6 players will respond and then the requester can snag a dozen runes in just a couple of days which is almost enough to do a full upgrade from zero.

*and players unlocking new wonders.
AW needs 1000 to complete, best the owner gets is 135 awkp help ?
A 1,000 Kp wonder should have about 190 KP in rewards, not 135 and AFAIK almost all wonders have the same ~20% rewards.*

Basically, in Net0 instead of trying (through luck/strategy/activity) to get a big return on your donated KP, you get a guaranteed 20% discount on upgrading wonders.
E.G.
Paying 800 for your 1,000 KP wonder (Net0)
vs
Getting 1,000 KP in rewards for your 800 KP donations (WS)

*There are some small exceptions iirc like the smallest/earliest wonders may have a slightly lower ROI than 20%.
 
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CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
The only down-side to net zero, it seems to me, is the amount of administration. Somebody has to keep track of it all, or am I missing something? If you can find a good administrator it seems it might work well.

AJ
The great part there is no administration, the owner just shout out's it's wonder, players fill it up an when the owner sees it's filled he can upgrade it.

It's wonder society that has a lot of administration and KP threads are known to have some easy mistakes made all the time and require a bucketload of swap messages. on our hayday we did about a 1000 messages every 2-3 days.

This is just check if your own wonder has all the chests taken by the owner, thats it, you check and control your own wonder.

We use shout outs in the chat instead of a thread

My piramid 15-10-10-5-5 (nz)

then those online jump onto them and shout out and pick the chests and fill them up. if it's a small wonder like this example it usually takes 5 minutes, if it are bigger wonders it might take an hour or 2 before all 8-10? chests are taken depending how many are online, sometimes those are also 5 minutes.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Soggy,
I'll take ur word its closer to 20%, and yea 20% is 20% either way.
We all know ppl that are "paused" for many reasons, what do they
do with all thier KP ??? Because donating it and getting in return
is a way to "bank" KP into non volitile AWKP instants + Shards.

edit: and having that clock working ( KP ) actually makes the
game run better, so can't have it pinn'd @ max.
 

TomatoeHu

Sheets of Color
i feel like i have a life back now that i no longer have to use any wonder society spreadsheet....I had three on the go, several wonder sheet managers dedicating time too! With net0, I have leveled 12 wonders since July 1, where the society style would hold me back based on over contributions of others, i am no longer having to wait for my turn! Net0 is the superior system over all others
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
We all know ppl that are "paused" for many reasons, what do they
do with all thier KP ?
They
1. Put it into their wonders :oops: I dump some ~500 Kp per week into mine.
2. Grab top chests to convert KP into KP instants

Much more #1 than #2 since it is a pretty rare case where instead of upgrading a wonder a player would rather stockpile KP instants for a future wonder while paused (since they obviously aren't unlocking any wonders while paused)

Personally, every time I log in I
1. buy Kp with coins until I can't
2. sweep city collecting everything
3. Dump all ~50 KP into my current wonder
3a. if my wonder is >50% full add it to the thread
3b. if my wonder is already in the thread check to see if all chests were taken (correctly) and finish it off
4. Check the thread for chests with open wonders
5. reset armories, workshops, MA, troops, and factories
6. Log out

Once a week I do my 1600+gold spire which is under 20 minutes total, or if I do 25x6 for my share of 19 chests it's ~38 minutes.

It takes more time for my city to load than it does to manage it.:p
 
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