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    Your Elvenar Team

Quicker Expiration for 0 Star Trades

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
The rub here is you needs those goods asap, and noone in your FS is on for another
3-4 hrs
, but you have a local that always has offers and you can grab them instantly,
but they trade 1star ... .. [emphasis added]
This is exactly the scenario that makes believing the assigned value of the goods should be taken as the "correct" value. The devs don't, and can't include in their valuation of goods the intangible and situational pressures on those values. Thus, the goods being traded -- the ones offered -- in that situation and to the buyer, are worth 8% more than the system says they are worth. And to the seller they are worth 8% more because he/she understands that in the current state of those goods (supply and demand) it's highly likely (or at least more likely) that some player will pay 8% more for those goods. This is the true nature of any human trading system, real or imagined. The value of the trade is determined by the traders, not the system. And if the system encourages moral judgements about the players because they recognize this and use it, it is not being fair to them at all.

So I continue to agree with your analysis. It would be better, in my opinion, if everybody quit using the star system as a moral measure of other players. Just because the star system calls a trade "unfair" or "fair," it doesn't mean that in the circumstances of those trading, it is such.

AJ
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
My point would be that it's:
  • Pointless, those people just repost those trades again. 5 days become 2-3 days? it most likely would not even be that long on the market.
  • Not every 0-1 star trade is a 0-1 star trade, how do you reference to other players the difference, they see it as a 0-1 star trade, while the poster added a 2-3 star trade.
No not pointless, if their trades go away and they have to repost a few times a day that would be fine with me.
As for the perception of 2-3 vrs 0-1 would logically apply to Regular goods it does not apply to sentient goods, as there is no fee.
So when a player posts a trade, picking one off the screenshots, of wanting 15,000 in platinum and offering 1900 in moonstone this is as AJ would say fair in the eye of the trade poster but still a ZERO star trade, or how about wanting 13,000 obsidian for 5,000 velvet clearly a ZERO star trade.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
No not pointless, if their trades go away and they have to repost a few times a day that would be fine with me.
As for the perception of 2-3 vrs 0-1 would logically apply to Regular goods it does not apply to sentient goods, as there is no fee.
So when a player posts a trade, picking one off the screenshots, of wanting 15,000 in platinum and offering 1900 in moonstone this is as AJ would say fair in the eye of the trade poster but still a ZERO star trade, or how about wanting 13,000 obsidian for 5,000 velvet clearly a ZERO star trade.
It's fair to the one taking the trade and that is what makes it fair, not the posting. The posting is neither fair or unfair, it's just an offer. It's the acceptance of the trade that makes it fair.

Right now 100k scrolls for 100k silk is an unfair trade even if it's listed 2 star or, as many think, "fair." It's not because market conditions have dictated otherwise.

The mentioned trades of your reply are only fair if somebody -- the buyer -- accepts them. And nobody but the buyer can or should decide that.

AJ
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
The mentioned trades of your reply are only fair if somebody -- the buyer -- accepts them. And nobody but the buyer can or should decide that.
Fair enough, no pun intended, So how should we describe trades that as I and Sami did? We can agree the outcome is what determines the "fairness" so the offers are??
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
No not pointless, if their trades go away and they have to repost a few times a day that would be fine with me.
As for the perception of 2-3 vrs 0-1 would logically apply to Regular goods it does not apply to sentient goods, as there is no fee.
So when a player posts a trade, picking one off the screenshots, of wanting 15,000 in platinum and offering 1900 in moonstone this is as AJ would say fair in the eye of the trade poster but still a ZERO star trade, or how about wanting 13,000 obsidian for 5,000 velvet clearly a ZERO star trade.
The point is that there trades are not there for days, they are picked up, they are posting them several times a day.
More then enough players are not willing to wait a single second, and want stuff now.

I have seen some of those traders do more than a thousand of those trades in a single day. you can only post 60 of them so count how many times they are sold out on a day. you won't see it because they keep reposting those trades over and over and over again.

This is just another rant about trading, the suggestion itself does not make any sense as it simply will not do anything in practise.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
The new Ascended goods that start in chapter 18 are done at a strict 1:1 ratio because of the new Merchant mechanic. And since the 2nd tier of the Ascended goods will not be added until chapter 19, we don't even know yet if they can even be done as cross-tier trades, and if so, what that ratio might be. And while this type of system would not work at all with normal goods, because the trades are regional, and not server-wide, it would be nice if something similar could be introduced for Sentient goods. It would be amazing how much less stressful chapters 12+ would be with a strict 1:1 ratio for same-tier trades.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
The new Ascended goods that start in chapter 18 are done at a strict 1:1 ratio because of the new Merchant mechanic. And since the 2nd tier of the Ascended goods will not be added until chapter 19, we don't even know yet if they can even be done as cross-tier trades, and if so, what that ratio might be. And while this type of system would not work at all with normal goods, because the trades are regional, and not server-wide, it would be nice if something similar could be introduced for Sentient goods. It would be amazing how much less stressful chapters 12+ would be with a strict 1:1 ratio for same-tier trades.
At the expense of diamonds and coins for limited merchants?

What about those that negotiate in the spire? it would be an absolute nightmare to aquire the goods required, and if you arent carefull and out of goods. there is no way to quickly replenish your stocks.

I do not like the merchat for sentient even a little bit. it's like buring down your house because of a few mice.
Buy a cat, ignore those mice, stop focussing on dumb things. who cares if they trade like a madman? it's there thing.

all those claims about how it hurts your ..... is total BS.
Once you see 1 star trades in the trader, stop looking at how many pages those are.

Just post your own trades, wait a bit and voila solved.
This witchhunt for no reason that keeps going on and on and on and on bothers me a lot more than those 0 star trades.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
What about those that negotiate in the spire? it would be an absolute nightmare to aquire the goods required, and if you arent carefull and out of goods. there is no way to quickly replenish your stocks.
I forgot to include in my post that the amounts would have to be a lot higher, if they did a merchant-type system for sentients. Instead of the 2k for Ascended, Sentient would need to be a lot more.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I forgot to include in my post that the amounts would have to be a lot higher, if they did a merchant-type system for sentients. Instead of the 2k for Ascended, Sentient would need to be a lot more.
I can easily run up to 400-500K of sentient in a round of 4 negotiations.
So how high should the trades be?

There is no statisfying number you can create that fits everyones usecase.
It's either too high or too low depending on the user.
Thats why I hope they will never add T7+ ever to anything else but settlements
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
I can easily run up to 400-500K of sentient in a round of 4 negotiations.
So how high should the trades be?

There is no statisfying number you can create that fits everyones usecase.
It's either too high or too low depending on the user.
Thats why I hope they will never add T7+ ever to anything else but settlements
I never negotiate in the Spire, so I never look at the amount of goods needed. They have not added Divine Seeds or Sentient goods to tournament catering and I am still surprised they are in the Spire. But we will find out about what they do with Ascended after chapter 19 is added, for both catering and cross-tier trading.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
So how should we describe trades that as I and Sami did? We can agree the outcome is what determines the "fairness" so the offers are??
-- Expensive --

The point is that there trades are not there for days, they are picked up, they are posting them several times a day.
More then enough players are not willing to wait a single second, and want stuff now.
If you're a econ/trading player, thats what you do, post offers constantly
Wanting not to wait, ohh yea ppl spend diamonds to save time, yet a small
20-30% bump for instant goods is bad ??? Can I post this offer :
Offers 1000 marble : Demands 1000 steel + 50 diamonds......
Thats more expensive than just 1000:1250 , roflmao.....

What about those that negotiate in the spire?
Ive catered Only in the spire for last 10+months consecutively...

------

"Silly offers" are almost banned from the trader by Inno-Games.
1:8 -> 8:1 is Inno's range for legal ( fair ) trades, and if anyone is
really being honest ..... 1200 marble for 1000 steel is just as "unfair"
as 1000 marble for 1200 steel, but "unfair" is wrong, "expensive" is right.

As far as non-fee trades, it should be determined on 1 simple fact.....
Has Either player "discovered" the other player.......
example :
Player A has discovered player B & C ....
Player B has discovered player A but not C ....
Player C has not discovered player A or B ....

Now, the only..... yes Only situation where someone should
pay a trader's fee is between player B & C !!!!!!
 

defiantoneks

Active Member
i would guess that some of these parasitic trades are counting on accidental clicks (especially since the trade list on the app seems to scroll backward in weird ways).
perhaps add an "are you sure" button for accepting zero or 1 star trades like they do for spending diamonds. ?
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
@CrazyWizard When you say "More th[a]n enough players are not willing to wait a single second, and want stuff now," you are recognizing the value of the goods to those players includes their emotional state. Thus, if they take the trades of which you find fault, you are indicating they should ignore their emotional state and do what it is you find the rational thing to do -- refrain from taking those "bad" trades. I do wonder if you aren't condemning their felt needs more because they conflict with your felt needs than such actions are actually harmful to them.

In any case, the game is built to trigger or take advantage of emotional states that get us to purchase diamonds. Does this make the devs also "parasites?" Both the "parasites" mentioned by so many and the devs use the emotional needs of the players to gain profit. The devs do so by manipulating the parameters of play, while the so called "parasites" do so by manipulating the parameters of trading. I suppose you could say the devs do it out of necessity -- they are running a business-- but the players may feel it necessary to manipulate trading exactly because that's what is enjoyable to them and profitable as well. In the end, somebody is making a moral judgement about somebody else and I, for one, am always leery of such judgements.

AJ
 

juniperknome

Well-Known Member
I am proudly a Trader on Khelonar .....
While playing many mmophs over the years, usually there is an ingame
economy for goods. Some games this is locally, some its globally... Just
as with any economy, undercutting to make sales happens ...

While on Elvenar it doesn't take 2steel & 1planks to make a marble... thus
values of goods are set here by Inno... T3-1 : T2-1.5 : T1-2.25 ... This is just
to compare apples to apples in values.

Next, inversely ... newer players are hurt by the trader's fee, while older
players seem to take adv of this fact..... by having less fees applied AND
AWs that reduce these fees.... Its easily a fact where a 3yr player has 0 fee
to take a 6mo player's offer, yet the 6mo old player pays a +50% fee
taking the 3yr player's offer .... The new player either loses 50%, or loses
that person as a trading partner to take thier offers. The fix to this is
offering a 1 star deal ( 1:1.5 ) so both pay the same.

As this is an ingame economy for goods .... there is NO moral obligation
to spend the time to trade and keep goods offered 24/7, and not expect
some profit for your effort. As with ANY economy, the market will stabilize
at acceptable levels for both trader and buyer.

Next , Everyone shud be making thier boost good, and trading for thier
non-boost goods. As your boost increasess, the easier it is to absorb small
losses in trading.... Thats why most of your trades are within your Fellowship,
so they are cheaper, and your losses are less.....

Lets look @ loss's shall we..... lets say , no boost , you make 100 T1 from a bldg.
You make 1 of each. Lets also say your boost is 300% .... Thus you make :
100 (nb) - 100 (nb) - 400 (b) ......... ( remember max boost is 700% + Aws or
other bldgs that might increase that 700% )

If you just make your boost you make : 3x 400 (b) or 1200 (b) ( with same 3 bldgs )
Now, if you just trade in your FS @ 1:1 , you then have 100(nb) - 100(nb) - 1000(b)
Trading @ 1star rates, you then have 100(nb) - 100(nb) - 900(b)

The rub here is you needs those goods asap, and noone in your FS is on for another
3-4 hrs, but you have a local that always has offers and you can grab them instantly,
but they trade 1star ... in effect your 1200 goods became 1100 ...
You have basically not lost 50%, you only lost about 8%, and you got the value of
being able to get need'd goods on-demand .... not waiting for someone to take ur offer.
(remember , you are getting 1100 in goods , not 600 in goods by just making your
boost, and trading for your non boost ...... thats 85% more !!!!! )

Yes if you 100% balance out production.... 1200 becomes 400,400,400 inside FS trades,
or 300,300,300 if you trade @ 1star rates ....... 900 is still 50% more than if you made
all 3 goods yourself, and this is just @ 300% boost......

Since the trader fee is 50% , then morally... a 1 star trade isn't morally wrong, and
really isn't "that" expensive..... The game, Elvenar, says max trade is 1:8, so anything
beyond that.... is morally wrong, anything less is acceptable, by decree of the devs
for coding it that way....

Enuff with the "Unfair" crapola.... there is only expensive -> cheap .... Its a
Trade system, 2 ppl must agree on a price, there is NO "unfair" , and if you think
there is, just don't take the offers, but don't lobby the devs to eliminate a game
feature that works just fine , as an ingame economy if just allowed to be such !!!
well i am a very advanced player . just because a new player can't trade. i can so just post anything reasonable someone will take the trade. i clear out all the small trades daily just because i don't want to deal with 100 pages of trades so the new player thing is not valid
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
well i am a very advanced player . just because a new player can't trade. i can so just post anything reasonable someone will take the trade. i clear out all the small trades daily just because i don't want to deal with 100 pages of trades so the new player thing is not valid
Juniper, just ignore BrinDarby, it will help you in the long run and remember his most advanced city is CH4 so his experience in trading is very limited
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
And you know this is a fact HOW?
How I know doesn't matter but ask yourself this question:
Do you really think those people spend that much effort and backlash for 3 trades and 10K profit a day?
Off course not!!!

They need to make hundreds of trades so they can make a nice profit that keep them running doing it for months / years.
Thats what makes them run. as said I know that some make up to a 1000 trades per day.
Thats up to 2-3m in profits, THAT makes sense.

But you will not see that because they keep reposting those sold trades over and over and over again to keep selling them.
So from your point of vieuw those trades are there always.

This is so obvious in elvenar because elvenar doesn't allow partial trades. they cannot put up 1m goods and you see those trades dwindle form 1|M to 950K to 945K ect. it's either there or it's gone.

And when it's gone they repost.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
How I know doesn't matter ...
Now thats great logic ...
Do you really think those people spend that much effort and backlash
The only player I am aware of that posted on the forums is MichaelMichael and after many called him out for his trading activities he stopped posting.
as said I know that some make up to a 1000 trades per day.
ok at 60 per swipe that implies almost 17 sets of trades... OK I will give you that.

So I will ask the most important question where do they get these MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Sentient goods to trade that nobody else seems to have? And no they dont produce them I have looked many times