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    Your Elvenar Team

Quicker Expiration for 0 Star Trades

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Now thats great logic ...

The only player I am aware of that posted on the forums is MichaelMichael and after many called him out for his trading activities he stopped posting.

ok at 60 per swipe that implies almost 17 sets of trades... OK I will give you that.

So I will ask the most important question where do they get these MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Sentient goods to trade that nobody else seems to have? And no they dont produce them I have looked many times
I had 9m+ sentient at the beginning of this week.

But to give you a better answer, pretend you sell 20K sentient for 22500 sentient.
60*20.000= 1.2M sentient.

Each cycle of goods delivers you 1.350.000 sentient

Profit per 60 trades = 150K sentient.

So you do not need that much sentient, and the profits are pretty decent, so even if you start with 300K and only 15 trades, it doesn't take that long to get to 1.2M at which you are fit to go all out on trading.

So while you might trade many millions of sentient a day, the maximum amount you need is actually little, you just cycle the same goods over and over and over again, because with each trade you get your money back + a profit.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Ok used an account that nobody knows that it's me, (I do not want to be seen as a trader nor do I have the intention of becomming one)

Just dumped some 1* trades on the market.
Made about 80K profit in 2 hours on T6
made no T5 trades
made a 5K proft on T4

obviously I am doing something wrong with T5 and T4, but I am no expert on it, don't want to spend time on it, and just tested it a bit with just placing dumb 1* trades.
And it worked like a charm. I am sure that if I put more effort in understanding the market I could make a pretty neat profit very soon.

The point is, that slower trades does not stop 1 star trades, even without taking note of the market and just spamming it with stupid trades I already made 21 trades, I am sure a real trader that does study the market can make a lot more of those. and with a 60 limit he/she would have no trouble getting rid of his/her trades in very little time.
 

juniperknome

Well-Known Member
any question about this profiteering in trade. i have so many 3 stars trade to pick daily why would anyone think it takes 1 or 0 star trades to profit trade. i think i am up 500k in profit today alone. mr a wants marble and willing to pay 10% to get it just wait a day mr b will be looking for steel and willing pay 10% so i get 10% from both for 20% profit
 

Attachments

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I have never produced T3, yet I have over 600k ....
(yes I get 1k gems from WiseGolum/day ,
but I haven't had that bldg for 600 days yet )
 

able99

Member
It is curious to me that self proclaimed traders are protesting the idea the most. They claim that shorting the shelf life for 0 star trades to a day or less, or even just 10 minutes will have no effect on this problem. They even claim there is no problem. But yes, it is a problem judging by to amount of attention this post generated.
My question then becomes, "Why protest so vigorously?"
Answer - It will have an effect, they don't want to constantly re-post their trades, and it may actually solve the problem.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
So I will ask the most important question where do they get these MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Sentient goods to trade that nobody else seems to have? And no they dont produce them I have looked many times
You think they started with millions? If you trade at a profit you get to wherever you want over time. It's like interest. If the amount you are making is high you get there faster if you reinvest profits than if it's low. So they reinvest and their pool grows. Once they get to the point where the decay is less than the profit, they can go as far as they want if the market conditions don't change. What they are doing is putting a certain amount of sentient goods in storage thus taking it off the market, keeping the supply low enough to make a profit. The response should be to flood the market by producing more, thus raising the competition and bringing the price down. Once the price drops enough that the decay rate outpaces the profit, the trader is doomed.

@juniperknome When you say, "you got the value of being able to get need'd goods on-demand" you hit the nail on the head. The value is what YOU say it is and there is no way the devs can anticipate the value you add to the trade if it includes intangibles like "on-demand."

As for your clearing the small players trades, like many of us do, sometimes several times a day, that too is an intangible. The value of the trade includes anything you decide it includes and thus, the devs can't anticipate your valuations fully. Realizing this we ought, I think, to do away with all the moral judgements made of other players because they are posting trades we wouldn't take since our intangibles aren't adding enough value to the trade for us to take it. Others intangibles shape the value to them and they may take the trade for that reason.

It is curious to me that self proclaimed traders are protesting the idea the most. They claim that shorting the shelf life for 0 star trades to a day or less, or even just 10 minutes will have no effect on this problem. They even claim there is no problem. But yes, it is a problem judging by to amount of attention this post generated.
My question then becomes, "Why protest so vigorously?"
Answer - It will have an effect, they don't want to constantly re-post their trades, and it may actually solve the problem.
The form of asking a rhetorical question and then answering it for people goes back all the way to the Greeks. It is useful as it provides the "answer" without the listener having to actually consider the question. Some rhetoricians over the years have thought it a questionable tactic. Thus, I, too, can suggest a different answer.

First, though, why is it a problem? A lot of heat and light have been posted on the subject and some of those opposing the suggestion have suggested it's not a problem. That it irritates people isn't sufficient to say it's a problem, I think. And after you remove the irritation of "hundreds of pages of trades" a person feels compelled to scroll through, what's left? A shortage of goods? If they are too expensive for you, build another production facility. If they are expensive you can then sell them at the current market value and make a profit yourself. "Problem" solved. It doesn't matter if you make that particular good or not, trade whatever you make in excess for what it expensive. The thing is, you aren't limited in what you produce so produce more and trade your cities excess for what you need, even if it's expensive. So, as I think, it wasn't a problem in the first place because the answer is right there in front of each player. The way people perceive the problem is that it can only be solved by the devs making some changes. Those who don't call it a problem are saying that it's something you can fix yourself pretty easily and thus, why call it a problem at all?

You imply by your answer that those opposing the change are doing so in order to continue their "nefarious" ways. But I, for one, don't engage in posting hundreds of trades for profit, so if I oppose there must be other reasons than the one you state. How about, the change isn't needed? How about, it's easier to solve the problem on your own? How about, why should we get the devs to invest in solving our problems when we can do it ourselves? The answers can go on and on along these lines.

AJ
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
It is curious to me that self proclaimed traders are protesting the idea the most. They claim that shorting the shelf life for 0 star trades to a day or less, or even just 10 minutes will have no effect on this problem. They even claim there is no problem. But yes, it is a problem judging by to amount of attention this post generated.
My question then becomes, "Why protest so vigorously?"
Answer - It will have an effect, they don't want to constantly re-post their trades, and it may actually solve the problem.
First of all I am no trader, never was, never will, it just ain't my thing.
But I did try to confirm my statement by testing the waters myself, instead of relying on the information of others, even if they are very trustworthy.

I am agains cosmetic changes that are pointless. changes just for the sake of changes is always bad no matter what.
If they would make this change and nothing changes, what then? they just gave a stick to those who complain and have there personal vedetta.
You have given them the stick and carrot and they will get worse, and there is not much you can do anymore to keep them at bay, you pretty much have to respond to all of there demands. as a developer you are no longer in control.

You get so much response because there is a small group of players who have made it there personal vendetta to kill/eliminate/castrate ect traders at all costs.

Whatever your idea is to limit there options, currently any trade stays on the market for about 5 days (unfortunately the countdown timer is no longer visible or I could not find it)
As long as all trades are taken within hours to 24h, limiting those trades to be only 2 days viable instead of 5 days what would change?

What do you expect? whats the problem of just ignoring the people you do not want to buy from?
I mean a year ago they finally changed star rates to be more fair, this means there are no "good" 1* trades anymore and there are no bad 3* trades anymore.

So that spoilage of the market is already solved, once you reach 1* trades you can just close down the trader post your own trades and ignore them.
So what are you trying to achieve with this change?

Because in my vieuw there is no change, and it makes no sense to change.
I do not give a $ about traders in this game, as said once I see 1* trades I just close down the search menu, why would I whip myself up into a useless frenzy about it?
That only hurts me and make my day bad, it's so much easier to ignore them and go on with your happy life.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
Here are the Trades for Soap available on Elcy
soaptrades.jpg

Been up for a day

My trades that I need to complete the Advance Tech and Enter Ch 15
soap offer.jpg

These have been up for several days and I have already reposted them once and no takers and this has been going on since late Tuesday 07/13

ch 15.jpg


SO I play by the rules and build what I have to for trades and the result is no trades?

Oh and yes I could make 20 trades with the Wholesaler and at an ever extreme price, but alas I dont have several hundred Thousand to buy 40,000 soap.

Does this make it a problem yet?
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
Oh and to add Insult to Injury the Obsidian I had has decay'd and I need to get more of that too ..... Oh and look at all the trades for Obsidian

obsidian.jpg
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
The response should be to flood the market by producing more, thus raising the competition and bringing the price down
And pray tell, how are we that don't produce the cherished goods do this? I dont disagree with your logic and your logic also inversely shows the problem exists.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
So what is your point?

How does this relate to bad trades on the market?

btw: those trades are so bad, I would not even consider that a trader at best it's a troll, and if I did wear my tin foil hat, I would say it's an alt/friend of you that posted those absolutely insane trades just to make a point on the forums a day later.

Al those trades are what is technically the max allowed trading distance. 3K for 21K? that makes no sense at all. not even a little bit.

But... if those those troll trades (I cant call them trader trades because they aren't) are removed of the market after 24h,
How does that change.....anything?

What about your complaint / rant you just made, changes based on a market removal after 24 hours?
Does it magically pick up your goods from the market?

No it doesn't. so you vote for a change that changes nothing.

Ps. Nice find btw, but this example does not make your point in any way.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
So what is your point?
My point was that there is a problem and this is but 1 example ... as stated by others "is there a Problem"

How does this relate to bad trades on the market?
Umm the trades being posted are bad, clearly

btw: those trades are so bad, I would not even consider that a trader at best it's a troll, and if I did wear my tin foil hat, I would say it's an alt/friend of you that posted those absolutely insane trades just to make a point on the forums a day later.
Your thinking is incorrect Not me or an Alt/Friend I would not waste me time I would just grab the 40K I need and go about my business.

...

But... if those those troll trades (I cant call them trader trades because they aren't) are removed of the market after 24h,
How does that change.....anything?
I think 2 hours should be the limit for goods if 0 or 1 star trades

...

Ps. Nice find btw, but this example does not make your point in any way.
This is normal types of trades on Arendyll, Elcy and Khel for Sentient goods
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
And pray tell, how are we that don't produce the cherished goods do this? I dont disagree with your logic and your logic also inversely shows the problem exists.
[/QUOTE

You don't, but you don't have to. One of the cities I run produces shrooms, another bismuth. Bismuth is in abundance and shrooms is not. I don't trade between these two cities because I don't need to do so. Instead, in each city I produce an abundance of what I produce -- more bismuth in the bismuth city and more shrooms in the shrooms city. Since bismuth is in abundance I post my bismuth trades at 10% bonus to the buyer. I'm paying for the extra cost out of my surplus. They are taken at that with a couple hours. In my shrooms city I produce an abundance of shrooms and sell them at even because that's what I can get. In both cases I'm using my surplus production to purchase what I need. It's the surpluss production of all your tradable goods that makes it work, not the surplus of the goods in demand.

The thing is, it's not the particular item you are producing but that you are producing something that can be traded for the expensive thing and you are producing that something in abundance.

Now if all players did it this way, and disregarded the miss-leading devs declaration of the value of their goods, there would be a surplus of most goods (since we'd be producing more than we were consuming) and the price of most goods would drop, then come to some kind of balance. But of course, the social rules imposed say we can't trade steel for silk, bismuth for moonstone and all that. The markets say otherwise and if I'm not mistaken, they are moving that direction. I'm seeing a lot more cross tier trades, a lot more lower and higher star trades and a lot more movement in my part of the world.

AJ
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
My point was that there is a problem and this is but 1 example ... as stated by others "is there a Problem"
there might be an issue but that it not related to this case, your examples do not al all make your point.
Just because 1 person poo's on the street, doesn't mean there is not an national health crisis.


Your thinking is incorrect Not me or an Alt/Friend I would not waste me time I would just grab the 40K I need and go about my business.
You clearly did not understand sarcasm or the wordt "IF"

I think 2 hours should be the limit for goods if 0 or 1 star trades
Why? how does is affect YOUR game. id there are some troll trades on the market.


This is normal types of trades on Arendyll, Elcy and Khel for Sentient goods
It's not normal, but obviously if someone want to troll you on the marketplace, these are the ones that will obviously stay on the market, this has nothing to do at all with 0 or 1* trades, these are troll trades, and obviously nobody is going to pick up trolltrades.
Or maybe someone who thought that if you put your goods on the market they will not decay (yes this is a common question for those new to it)or some other reason why goods are on the market at dumb rates. for example during the old FSA format, where you would put up bad trades on the market for your fellows SO NOBODY ELSE PICKS THEM, so you can do your quests.

You grabbed a complete out of context stupid trade and then superimposed this to all 0/1* trades.
It's like saying because 5 black man killed a person, all black people are criminals.

You can't grab the obviously stupid exception and then superimpose that on all
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
@ed1960
You posted an image of a player offering obsidian for sillysoap?

What is wrong with those trades? I mean obviously other than they are offering what you need for something else you need. But is there something else wrong with those trades?(Not in sentients, so genuine question?)
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
@ed1960
You posted an image of a player offering obsidian for sillysoap?

What is wrong with those trades? I mean obviously other than they are offering what you need for something else you need. But is there something else wrong with those trades?(Not in sentients, so genuine question?)
Wrong, nothing at all other that I cant get any sillysoap for the tech let alone to get the obsidian that I now need since the 50K I had is decaying.
Hence the adding Insult to injury comment
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
You can't grab the obviously stupid exception and then superimpose that on all
You are right, how stupid of me to think there is an issue with sentient goods trading on some of the servers...
obviously if someone want to troll you on the marketplace
You are correct all the trades I have been complaining about must have been just to troll me. How silly of me not to know this.

Thank you so much for correcting my stupidity on this matter