• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Rebalancing of select (old) event buildings

DeletedUser3220

Guest
If that taxi drops you off between point A to B and don't return any of your fair fee, that's wrong. That's theft. That's what I feel they have done to us. Also, False Advertising. They advertised these building would have a certain value and after we pay for them (whether it be with diamonds or time/resources) they change the value? That's wrong.
If a store has a product on the shelf with a set price labeled for it and that price is changed when you get to the cashier what do you do?
 

DeletedUser12171

Guest
If that taxi drops you off between point A to B and don't return any of your fair fee, that's wrong. That's theft. That's what I feel they have done to us. Also, False Advertising. They advertised these building would have a certain value and after we pay for them (whether it be with diamonds or time/resources) they change the value? That's wrong.
If a store has a product on the shelf with a set price labeled for it and that price is changed when you get to the cashier what do you do?

If you could prove it were false advertising, you may have a case in the U.S. But they could say that game content was always subject to change and when you accepted the EULA you accepted this aspect as well

The way things are set up, you technically didn't pay for anything at all apart from diamonds. You didn't pay for the event building. You paid for diamonds and they delivered every diamond that you paid for, which means you have no case really, false advertising or otherwise. The taxi did get you from A to B as advertised. The event building was simply part of the free game content that was offered as part of the gaming service provided by the devs

Disagree with this if you like, it is what it is.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
If that taxi drops you off between point A to B and don't return any of your fair fee, that's wrong. That's theft. That's what I feel they have done to us. Also, False Advertising. They advertised these building would have a certain value and after we pay for them (whether it be with diamonds or time/resources) they change the value? That's wrong.
If a store has a product on the shelf with a set price labeled for it and that price is changed when you get to the cashier what do you do?
Every game company in existence that wants to stay in business does constant rebalancing... doesn't matter if they're online, CCG, table-top minis, console... they all are constantly nerfing/buffing various elements of their games. (on top of the constant bug/rules patches)
Just be happy that you're out maybe $50-100 worth of 'investment' on this particular game, vs. most other games/hobbies where big balance changes can see you suddenly out $500-600, or even $1000's of dollars & (especially in the case of miniature games) the 1000's of hours of time & effort to build/paint all your little man-dollies.

You should note that there were also actually many more buffs vs. nerfs overall! The only reason people are getting their panties in a twist is because;
a) Inno did an utterly crap job of announcing & detailing to the entire player base what was happening. Instead, they just dropped the 'balance bomb' on the game and hoped that people in general would think to visit the forums before it happened.

b) The only buildings people currently care about are the ones that got soundly beaten by the nerf bat, mostly because many had loaded up on them due to the fact that their stats are so massively beyond everything else in the game of a similar size/current chapter.

Fixes are coming, balance overall is improved, and eventually, things will even out just like they did when the AW's re-design was dropped on us. (well, okay, so Bell Spire/Crystal Thingy is still rank poo, but hey, only 1 awful AW out of 20 or so is pretty damn good!)
We just need to show a wee bit of patience.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
No, because that would not address the main issue with these buildings, which is that they are game-breakingly over power to begin with!
Although winter stars were overpowered, even a slow player should have outgrown them by now, regardless of which chapter they were in when they got them. For the Glossy Gardens, again they were very good, but almost all players should be in a position where they were "OK" 3 days ago. If upgrading either of those buildings would have made them OP under the old stats, the Legacy solution would have fixed it.

Legacy buildings that convert to the new version when a spell is used on them would have been a very simple solution with no real downside.
 

DeletedUser12171

Guest
Although winter stars were overpowered, even a slow player should have outgrown them by now, regardless of which chapter they were in when they got them. For the Glossy Gardens, again they were very good, but almost all players should be in a position where they were "OK" 3 days ago. If upgrading either of those buildings would have made them OP under the old stats, the Legacy solution would have fixed it.

Legacy buildings that convert to the new version when a spell is used on them would have been a very simple solution with no real downside.

not that the legacy building idea is bad, but just wondering, if those people had outgrown those buildings, shouldn't the nerf be just a prick on the skin to them rather than "oh noes my city is going to trash because of this"
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
not that the legacy building idea is bad, but just wondering, if those people had outgrown those buildings, shouldn't the nerf be just a prick on the skin rather than "oh noes my city is going to trash because of this"
Sure. If they had done it. But they didn't do it. Having a bunch of things that are "okay, but attractive" is different form having a bunch of buildings that are "not-ok but attractive." The problem isn't people who outgrew the buildings, the problem is people who haven't yet outgrown them.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
not that the legacy building idea is bad, but just wondering, if those people had outgrown those buildings, shouldn't the nerf be just a prick on the skin rather than "oh noes my city is going to trash because of this"
Not really, if they had reached the point where the buildings were close in pop to a residence, but weren't making the switch until next chapter when residences become better, then they have to make some serious adjustments.
When I removed my 15 winter stars it took almost a month of building and upgrading new residences from zero to level 21 with my 2 builders. Of course, I new it had to be done months in advance and wasn't in the red the whole time as some players will be now.

Remember, there are 3 buildings that got the major nerfs
  • Winter stars- a large majority of players should have outgrown them
  • Glossy- many players have outgrown them, but they were offered more than once, so it's harder to judge, and a significant number of players with the newest GG that don't rush the game have only reached the "still just better than a res"
  • CandyCane tree- There have been no pop&culture buildings available that are better than these since this winter event, so quite a few should still have them.
 
Last edited:

DeletedUser3507

Guest
I made this in entire argument on Beta 6 months ago on the last rebalance, they basically said Sorry Charlie../..Get Bent

So I quit Beta
I didn't need that headache.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser12171

Guest
Not really, if they had reached the point where the buildings were close in pop to a residence, but weren't making the switch until next chapter when residences become better, then they have to make some serious adjustments.
When I removed my 15 winter stars it took almost a month of building and upgrading new residences from zero to level 21 with my 2 builders. Of course, I new it had to be done months in advance and wasn't in the red the whole time as some players will be now.

Remember, there are 3 buildings that got the major nerfs
  • Winter stars- a large majority of players should have outgrown them
  • Glossy- many players have outgrown them, but they were offered more than once, so it's harder to judge, and a significant number of players with the newest GG that don't rush the game have only reached the "still just better than a res"
  • CandyCane tree- There have been no pop&culture buildings available that are better than these since this winter event, so quite a few should still have them.

I had 5 candy cane trees myself from the winter event, and was in fairies I think. However I got rid of them for want of space as I entered Orcs. so wasn't affected by the nerf.

Personally, I feel that if someone is dropping like 20 residences and substituting them with like 10 event buildings, and devs say that was not the intended gameplay, I'd side with the devs. Nothing wrong with the players doing so while the mechanic worked that way, but I really doubt that when the devs designed the game they said "Oh sure we'll have residences, but then we'll just have event buildings that would make residences useless so that everyone can build those instead!"
 
Last edited by a moderator:

stephenr10

New Member
If they knew that they would be making this move. Why did they use the Father Tree of Candy Cane in January of 2018?

Plus you did not respond to my remedy. Give me the choice to choose different items from the event to replace the items that were changed.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Personally, I feel that if someone is dropping like 20 residences and substituting them with like 10 event buildings, and devs say that was not the intended gameplay, I'd side with the devs.
I might too. but the devs didn't didn't say that.
Nothing wrong with the players doing so while the mechanic worked that way, but I really doubt that when the devs designed the game they said "Oh sure we'll have residences, but then we'll just have event buildings that would make residences useless so that everyone can build those instead!"
Every building we place involves choices. Some of the event buildings give a higher density of culture and population than we can get other ways, but none of the ones involved give any coins. Conservatively, using coin values from the middle chapter between fairies and woodelves, If I'd placed an additional 10 residences instead of the 11 gardens, I'd have had an additional 1.6 million coins per day for the last 365+ days (currently, 2.2million/day more, since I got my Wood elf residences in December). That's well over 600 million coins (an additional 411KP) that I forwent by not having residences instead of those gardens.

Give me the choice to choose different items from the event to replace the items that were changed.
That is a significant programming challenge that would probably be far more costly than losing a few players. It really isn't a realistic expectation.
 

Xelenia

Ex-Team Member
I have cleaned this thread once more. I am allowing everyone to vent their frustrations and annoyance with the changes that took place. The lines are drawn when personal attacks becomes the norm. There will not be tolerance on this forum.

I have posted the rules previously and I will advice everyone to refer to it. The key to a successful discussion is reading what is written, understanding it, acknowledging it and than formulating a well thought out rebuttal. A polite attitude and a constructive attitude goes a long way and I will advice everyone to stay on point.

Xelenia
 

DeletedUser3721

Guest
Well done again Inno. If it's your purpose to make people leave the game, why not just tell us instead of making it a long term project?
 

juniperknome

Well-Known Member
fyi when you go negative on culture there is no culture boost from visits but now emergency is diverted I have weeping willows going now for the -1000 population is a work in progress
 

DeletedUser15113

Guest
People do not have an obligation to find out when the other party is making negative changes to an agreement. Some information was out there, if you knew to look for it and knew where to look for it. The details of the changes were never provided by the game team until after the changes were deployed on live this morning (and even now, it's just a list of buildings, not an actual detail of what they changed). Anyone who didn't bump into a player saying there was some info on Elvenarchitecht had no was of knowing what the changes were. The only pre-announcement that gave any time to do any preparation at all was the on on beta, and they gave no details while making it sound like the changes were going to be a minor inconvenience. My population dropped by over 10% (more than 7,000 population). That is not "as close to the old value as possible" and it is not something I should be expected to anticipate without a clear communication.

Yep, no one has the obligation to do find out anything, period. No argument here. But then you're at the mercy of the change. Yes, the game team did a poor job of communicating the magnitude of the change, however they're using the same system they've been using forever. The people aren't the issue. The system is. I apologize to putting blame on people, players or the game team. The communication system is broken and needs to be fixed.

I don't know how much effort you think players should put into understanding the effect of major negative changes that haven't been announced in game, but whatever you think it is, we disagree. We should not have to look up the levels of every pop/culture building we have in play then check them on a third party, unofficial, site to figure out how much population I'm going to lose. And we should not be required to check the beta weeks ahead of time and then try to figure out if them saying they're reassessing the changes means that they aren't actually going to make any changes.

I have no expectations for the amount of any effort that a player should put in. My expectations are they should understand the system they are using, especially if they want to complain about. People are generally get different things out of games and thus apply different amounts of effort. No one is required to look up anything. Especially on Beta, as what happens in Beta isn't a sure bet to make it to the live servers. I've only been play little while and have seen changes that announced on beta not make it to the live servers. When they announced this change in beta, they said the event building could be upgraded with diamonds and eventually something free like blueprints. When it hit live servers they just announced they're working on a spell as the mechanism for upgrades. So while Inno can't point people the beta for the information, they should realize but this debacle that their communication system is broken. Maybe the simple fix is the list the "potential" change a bit in advance, and in game. There are still going to be people that don't read that though....

Wow. I'm not sure where to start.

Since we get 168 a week from time, if you weren't ever getting any from tournaments, that means you were getting 392 kp per week from ancient wonders (based on the assumption that 168 is 30% of your total) That's a pretty phenomenal number of AWs you were getting into the top 5 on. Quite magical, actually. If you were getting some from tournaments, then it gets even worse for that position. And since getting any KPs from AWs requires putting kp into AWs, I'm finding the math of getting 70% of your tech advancement from AWs quite mindblowing.

But setting that particular infinite improbability drive aside, kou might not like the KP changes, but they were not a nerf at all. The result of the change is decreased flexibility, but more KP, not less.

Well finish you're math.... I've been playing about 16 weeks. 16x168 is 2688. The KP need for all the techs for just chapters 3 and 4 is 2347, or there about...didn't double check the math. So that barely covers those two chapters. yeah, Chapter 1 is short and 2 isn't that much longer, but chapters 5 and 6 (working on advanced scouts for Fairies now and still have 1/2 of the last expansion to do in the dwarf) are much more that chap 1&2. I don't have the time to do the full math by yeah, but I'm going to go ahead and say it is going to be close to 6000-7000 Kp? I know there are quest rewards, tournaments and KP purchases (not with diamonds) that will help. But, as you said part of getting the wonder rewards is putting KP into wonders so that isn't going towards tech either, plus I didn't always get rewards from putting KP into wonders either so that is just lost. Then there were times when I "lost" KP because I was at 10 or over KP (or 20 once I unlocked the spell) due to time or rewards so i missed out on earning KP naturally. In the end it probably balances close to 30% of KP for research was from "time". Yeah, there also the 8x137=1096 from province completion too... Maybe 70% is a little bit of an over estimate and its closer to 60%, give or take 10%ish? But the exact number which is impossible to calculate is definitely over 50%.

It is not hard to get into the top 5 of a wonder, if you're only 1 of 5 (or less in some cases) donating. The tricky part is to know where to look! (but lets not start a debate if that is the "ethical" thing to do. I know some people don't like that tactic, but this how the system is set up so move on. Don't blame me, blame the system! ;))

I didn't say it was a KP nerf, I said it was a tech tree advancement nerf. Yes, i'm getting a lot more KP now and its been a huge boost for my wonders. However, you can't tell that if I started a city today, I'd be in Fairies in about 16 weeks now that wonders KP can only be spent on wonders... That, my friend, is a nerf to the tech tree advancement.
 

WolfSinger

Well-Known Member
I have a question because everyone wants to keep dragging FOE into the discussion (has been mentioned on a couple of the threads). People saying that having these OP building will allow veteran players to basically stomp on newbies.

Is FOE a PvP game? if so then saying veteran players can stomp on newbies here is a fallacy as we are not a PvP game and the only thing that veteran players have over newbies is score and ranking and there is nothing gained by those in game - just some bragging rights. (And diamond players will ALWAYS have the advantage there regardless of a few OP buildings).
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
EDIT: My below comment is mistaken. No free upgrades. I just took a closer look and realized my memory had failed me. The buildings were already obtained in the Woodelves chapter, but I had thought I was still in Orcs back then. My mistake!

For what it's worth, it looks like all of my affected buildings got a free upgrade by one chapter (in my case, from Orcs to Woodelves) to go along with the rebalancing. With that being the overall largest change in stats for many of these buildings, it almost nullified what would have been a substantial penalty and makes the pill much easier to swallow.
 
Last edited:

DeletedUser7426

Guest
Even if it does not qualify technically, to me this change constitutes fraud. I invested real money during events to earn specific rewards, and built my city based around those rewards and now you are changing those rewards. AND have given me no way to recoup the losses I have incurred due to those changes. Except MAYBE at some point in the future if I spend MORE money I can get back to where I was.

Hey spend money and you can get this awesome thing!
Great! Thanks for spending the money here's the thing
Um, now we are giving you this lesser thing instead of what we promised you
Don't like it? well just give us more money and maybe we will give you what we promised you
Until later on when we can just take it away again

I completely agree with this. This was sneaky and shady because they could have announced it just like they do the "spend more money" on diamonds promotions or anything else they announce. Using the "being more fair to new players" is such a big fat LIE. Three days ago I had no empty cities on my map, today I have 23....what new players? They are exiting faster than I can count. This is THEFT, it just is. Theft of our money, our time and hard work. Fair to new players, but screw those who have played for a year or YEARS? This is just flat wrong. The logic isn't even there, it's not like we battle other cities or what have you, so how do they figure it's being more fair to new players? New players start at scratch just like the rest of us did and build from there. Nope, all lies, this is flat out GREED and asshattery....and, I too, am considering just quitting. This is Orc dung of the stinkiest kind....Hope you get coal for Christmas, Elvenar team....and you really don't even deserve that, bunch of scrooges....
 

DeletedUser5521

Guest
they are game-breakingly over power to begin with!
Naaaaa...they didn't "break" the game back when we won them, nor were they "game-breaking" during all the time they have stayed in anyone's city since then. This "re-balancing" seems to have more of a game-breaking effect on the game than the original stats of the buildings that got nerfed, and even this won't really break the game, just pi$$ off the natives for a while until it settles. We pretty much told them this would happen when presented with it on Beta just a short time ago, and begged them to reconsider. But the devs decided to go this route anyways, as is their right. It is their game, afterall, and they just allow us to play it. People that are upset and voicing it have every right to do so. Are there ways to fix what this may have done to their cities? Sure, there are always ways. But people don't always want to have to do things they don't want to do, and that's basically what this comes down to, for the most part. "It's my stuff, I won it fair and square, don't mess with it!" However that may sound to some, it's a basic natural human response. So let people vent about it. The replies may seem redundant, but after the vent, the wind settles, a couple more puffs get expressed, then it is done. And those that don't quit over having to face a challenge figure it out, conquer that challenge, and move on. :oops:
 
Top