relics used to make MM catalyst and fed food

[neeronie]

I suggested, in the Ideas and Suggestions Forum, that there needed to be as change in which relics are necessary for making the above either by rotating the relics needed, or making a new interchangeable relic or by being able to purchase relics with coins. This suggestion was archive within an hour or so of it being posted and I was told to do more tournaments. Suggestions came in covering all the things I do like scout dust provinces and craft relics but if you read further you will see evidence that I have covered those alternatives very well.

'I have two cities where I am marble boosted. One city is in Chapter 15 the other just started Orcs. Both need dust relics to make the above mentioned. So far in the less than a year in my "Orcs city" I have collect 50,016 dust relics and have in inventory 62 dust relics. In my chapter 15 city which I have been playing for 6 years, I have collected 99,125 dust relics and have 170 in inventory. So, in one year I have collected more than half of the total of the larger city. I would suggest that this is due to the increased need for, in my case, dust and the other relics that I use to make the three items. only MM needed dust until catalyst and pet food were introduced. Now we will have another pet to feed, if we bother to build it. If you happen to belong to a Fellowship which does a push every tournament you may not have noticed this but I would guess that for many players this has or will become a problem. My Orc cities Fellowship is to small to do a push and still look at the number I have collected.

I am not trying to brag about myself for the numbers I have collected. I am sure they are similar to every player's numbers. I would like to know if you think my suggestions have any merit.

 

[Pheryll]

I assume that dust is the relic you need for CC, MM, and one pet food type. You can get CC from the spire, the moonstone library set, and you can get MM from the panda and tournaments- all free of relic investment. Still this would not be enough to support a heavy MM user. Perhaps reduce the amount of MM you consume? I know that the tournament MM is limited (none for the tenth province and beyond), but with your performance and the panda you should be able to keep three or four manufactories going with MM applied once a day without having to produce any from your magic academy.

 

[AtaguS]

Ok...I missed out on the pet events last year, so have not a lot of personaI experience to draw on when in comes to the relic drain they create...but I have listened to players mentioning it and have noticed a much larger relic drain just from crafting in general...SO I do think that as more game features are introduced which require the same relic to use, it is reasonable to ask the devs to consider adjusting the game to give players greater opportunity to access that relic. OR rotate which relics make what to spread the burden equally across the board. In the days before crafting (pet food in particular) it wasn't too difficult to keep up with the relic requirements via the tournament, or scouting.

Arguments for or against....
1) relics are craftable in the MA
Yes, that is a good step in the right direction. I wonder if, based off of nee's experience, if it a large enough step. Crafting the relics needed to craft the items needed...is a two steps forward, 1 1/2 steps back solution. Meanwhile we're behind on crafting pet food which puts a heavier burden on the relics needed to craft it, etc.

2) Tournaments and scouting
Again, are the old avenues to gaining the needed relics enough to handle the extra burden placed on cities from newly added game features. Scouting is a great means of relics in the early chapters and becomes a difficult or detrimental way in later chapters. That leaves a lot of cities with just tournaments. Can those keep up with the needs of a city, particularly when you throw pet food (and ever more pets to feed) in the mix?

3) The spire
Some weeks I play the spire and get a ton of spell fragments and very few CCs in reward chests. Many of the cities in my fs are new so even if I can go far in the Spire I'm reliant mostly on what I win in chests for take-home prizes. Therefore my pile of CC spells from the spire is very low and I need to craft them if I want access to craftable items...So this feels like a 2 steps forward, 1 1/2 steps back solution as well.

Now I know Inno has been finding all the clever ways it can to slow us down. And we all could ease off on crafting and making enchantments until our relic reserves were recovered but with the addition of pets it seems those reserves would be blowen through just as quickly and that will just lead to constant frustration. There doesn't have to be a relic tree in our back yard, they can still be hard to come by, but I do believe it is at least worth looking into, to make sure the balance is where it needs to be. I'm not a number cruncher so the best I can offer here is that I think the idea has merit for further discussion.

 

[samidodamage]

One of my cities has a marble boost, and since the relics to make enchantments are based off your boosts (that's the reason the suggestion will not go to the dev's) I, too need loads of both Scroll (because my T2 boost is Crystal) and Dust (because my T3 boost is Gems) relics to make the ones I need (MM and CC) as well as for pet food at times. So, regardless if my FS is pushing in those tournaments, I know I have to push as much as I can to keep up my supply. Yes, it bites, as those are the most costly tourneys and I'll need to do that as long as I play that city. With my T2 boost there being Crystal, there's another need for Scroll relics once I reached Amuni chapter: now I need to keep 500 scrolls relics at all times to maintain the boost on my Sentient goods, plus the extras I need for MM spells.
So, while I feel your pain, I also understand all the things that relics are balanced around and know that any changes to that would throw off the balance of so many other things going all the way back to when Enchantments (first called 'Spells') were introduced. I'm pretty sure that's why they archived your idea right away.
As my FS there grew into doing more and more tourney, and getting more of the MM spells in FS chests, the pressure on my Scrolls relics has lessened a bit, but since I'm now in early ch15 there, I'll need even more of the MM spells to produce enough sentient goods to unlock research techs. I choose to look at it as just another thing for me to keep an eye on and balance it just like so many other game mechanics. My 'plan' (we'll see how it works out, lol) is to use the current event to get artifacts I can craft into last yr's Phoenix artifacts (along with the 3 we win for quests) and place the Storm Phoenix. The Elvenar Trade Center increases the MM % boost (mine's at lvl 6, working on the next upgrade now) and the Storm will increase the MM % boost for 3.5hrs (up to 100% at lvl 10 but not sure I'll get it that high). I'll need to carefully watch the goods needed to unlock techs and be ready to feed the Storm and cast MM spells first thing in the morning on the day I plan to unlock it. That should get me the needed goods and get it unlocked before the next decay takes it back below what's needed. Then, rinse and repeat with the next tech... Like I said, we'll see how that works out.

 

[NightshadeCS]

Just a few discussion items to add/elaborate on...

I would put myself in a category that does pretty well in tournaments, Averaging 2800 points each week. We do not go crazy on the Spire, but I usually make it through the first floor, completing the first boss.

I had a HUGE stockpile of relics when crafting was released. I also had quite a large stockpile of enchantments, since I rarely used them. I like to think I have an efficient city and am never too troubled by selling or building new manufactories as my needs shift.

I do have a decided lack of crystal and elixir relics, the ones used for MM and CC. I am also quite short on CCs, for the most part, crossing my fingers on every Spire encounter that I will win some instead of the dreaded spell fragments.

I am currently half way through Chapter 15, where S3 needs are very high and S2 nearly as bad. I have built an additional S3 manufactory (bringing me up to 3), and run 5 MMs daily (3 S3, 2 S2).

As it is, I am more than happy to expend extra effort to get the relics I need. However, I do think it is worth looking at the underlying issue and am disappointed that a suggestion to look at it was archived before anyone could reasonably weigh in.

Things have changed on the Forum a lot lately, and maybe we need some clearer instructions that ideas and suggestions should perhaps be brought up in the "General Discussion" forum first, and only refined and reposted in the "Ideas and Suggestions" section when we want to propose or pitch an actual mechanic or improvement.

 

[neeronie]

I assume that dust is the relic you need for CC, MM, and one pet food type. You can get CC from the spire, the moonstone library set, and you can get MM from the panda and tournaments- all free of relic investment. Still this would not be enough to support a heavy MM user. Perhaps reduce the amount of MM you consume? I know that the tournament MM is limited (none for the tenth province and beyond), but with your performance and the panda you should be able to keep three or four manufactories going with MM applied once a day without having to produce any from your magic academy.

I did not think of the panda, I upgraded my brown bear to help with training troops. Thank you for that suggestion. I am sure that part of the reason for my heavy use is that I am Arch in the smaller city and feed my members as well as my pets, not complaining, I see that as part of the job.

Just a few discussion items to add/elaborate on...

I would put myself in a category that does pretty well in tournaments, Averaging 2800 points each week. We do not go crazy on the Spire, but I usually make it through the first floor, completing the first boss.

I had a HUGE stockpile of relics when crafting was released. I also had quite a large stockpile of enchantments, since I rarely used them. I like to think I have an efficient city and am never too troubled by selling or building new manufactories as my needs shift.

I do have a decided lack of crystal and elixir relics, the ones used for MM and CC. I am also quite short on CCs, for the most part, crossing my fingers on every Spire encounter that I will win some instead of the dreaded spell fragments.

I am currently half way through Chapter 15, where S3 needs are very high and S2 nearly as bad. I have built an additional S3 manufactory (bringing me up to 3), and run 5 MMs daily (3 S3, 2 S2).

As it is, I am more than happy to expend extra effort to get the relics I need. However, I do think it is worth looking at the underlying issue and am disappointed that a suggestion to look at it was archived before anyone could reasonably weigh in.

Things have changed on the Forum a lot lately, and maybe we need some clearer instructions that ideas and suggestions should perhaps be brought up in the "General Discussion" forum first, and only refined and reposted in the "Ideas and Suggestions" section when we want to propose or pitch an actual mechanic or improvement.

as always Night, you are very clear in your posts.

 

[samidodamage]

that ideas and suggestions should perhaps be brought up in the "General Discussion" forum first

^^Yes, this! I think that would be best (unless of course, you have a clearly developed, concrete suggestion first) for those of us who are frequent forum participants. Players that are infrequent visitors will still put 'ideas' in there that are non-starters and mostly just make things easier, not really adding any interesting mechanics to the game.
I don't think it needs to be fully fleshed out to go to the Ideas/Suggestions forum (which this lazy typist will now refer to as the I/S forum, lol). But a bit of input from the larger community in the discussions forum would make the things that are presented in I/S clearer and more viable from the start. It will also lessen the work on our volunteer moderators. I appreciate the opportunity we've been given to get ideas to the developers without needing to go through the beta process and would not be pleased if it ended up being too much work for them to keep it going.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

So far in the less than a year in my "Orcs city" I have collect 50,016 dust relics and have in inventory 62 dust relics. In my chapter 15 city which I have been playing for 6 years, I have collected 99,125 dust relics and have 170 in inventory.

The total collected numbers don't make sense. To get 50K of dust relics in a year, you need to average about 1000 dust relics every week. This is clearly impossible.

I am in the end-game, and played about 1.5 yrs total, hauling decent amounts of relics from tournaments every week (~3.5K points on average). With only crafting catalysts 24/7, my inventory totals are ~2.8K for relics that are not used in catalysts, and about 1.3K for those that are.

With decent tournament participation it is definitely possible to have excess of relics for any individual city usage (unless you have unlimited supply of time instants). It sounds though that you're sponsoring your FS members, and depending on your generosity it is easy to exceed your capacity in different ways - MMs or not.

 

[DeletedUser18111]

Hello!

I personally do not see the need for your suggestion, and I may be a loner here. I play the tournament on a regular basis and my 6 weeks average tends to venture between 3k to 8k depending on my mood. If I notice I am running low on a certain reelics, I go crazy extra that week for those relics lmao. It is hard for me to see any merit in your suggestion when I have atleast 1k of each relics, and I have over 300 counts of each spells.

The game is easy to play IF you really put some strategic thoughts into your playing style and the wonders you place (which is why it is call a game ). There are bigger fish to fry than having the developers waste their time on something that a player just need to twig their playing style to achieve. My question to you is how many cities do you play?

I just looked at your biggest city on elvenstat (attached your profile) and your average tournament score is less than 1.6k, meaning...you do not even score enough point to earn your spot in a 10 chest fellowship. When you look at mine, I earn more than enough of my spot in a 10 chest fellowship. Why should the developers address your unique concern, when they could do other things such as bringing a good visitation mechanism to the browser?

Just for some things to think about! I hope I am not coming off negative, I just want to put things in a perspective between those who tournament and fully take advantage of the tournament and those who do not.

I just noticed my dust is almost at 4k relics, the very one you are struggling with!

I have collected 99,125 dust relics and have 170 in inventory.

I do not believe you, I think you are doing your math wrong. I have been tournamenting since I began my elvenar journey and I do not think I have achieved that many dust relics in my 3 years of playing.

I just looked deeper into your elvenstat data, and your highest dust score is 2.3k since april 2018, that would give you something around 130 relics ...not to forget, that is not the total you have been achieving every dust since. I counted 13 (?) dust tournament in that range, assuming you have been getting exactly 130 dust relics each dust tournament, which means you have gained ‭1,690‬ relics since april of 2018. The lowest dust score I see from you is 864...so you have NOT even been achieving that.

Again, I am not trying to be negative, what you said simply does not add up. Your idea holds zero merit

 

[AtaguS]

you do not even score enough point to earn your spot in a 10 chest fellowship. When you look at mine, I earn more than enough of my spot in a 10 chest fellowship.

It is possible I am misunderstanding you but it sounds to me like you're saying the solution is to become a member of a 10-chest fs?
There are variables at play here beyond just whether neeronie, or others players experiencing a similar drain on 1 or 2 relic types, beyond their tournament score average. Some of them are listed above in other comments so no need to repeat. The discussion also asks whether an underliying imbalance is present as a result of new features, like crafting, the uptick in uses for MM enchantments and feeding pets...
Being a member of a 10-chest fs comes with its perks, no doubt. And players who go hard and make tournaments their priority when choosing AWs, fellowships, etc, should certainly enjoy those perks to the fullest. But it should not be a requirement for all players, just to keep enough of a valuable resource around. This game has always catered to varying styles of play so it would be odd to think that in this situation there is only one style that will work.

 

[DeletedUser18111]

It is possible I am misunderstanding you but it sounds to me like you're saying the solution is to become a member of a 10-chest fs?

That is not what I am saying at all, I am thinking before my fingers. What I was implying is her scores are not high enough. I was using the 10 chest as an example because for 25 members to get 10 chest, you need 1.6k total points. My use of that is she does not tournament enough as an individual to acquire relics at a descent rate. One does not need to be in a 10 chest fs to gain relics, and one certainly does not need to be in a 10 chest fs to tournament

She asked if her suggestion had a merit and I went on my experience and said no. Simple
My disclaimer:

I personally do not see the need for your suggestion, and I may be a loner here.

 

[AtaguS]

That is not what I am saying at all, I am thinking before my fingers. What I was implying is her scores are not high enough. I was using the 10 chest as an example because for 25 members to get 10 chest, you need 1.6k total points. My use of that is she does not tournament enough as an individual to acquire relics at a descent rate. One does not need to be in a 10 chest fs to gain relics, and one certainly does not need to be in a 10 chest fs to tournament

She asked if her suggestion had a merit and I went on my experience and said no. Simple
My disclaimer:

Ok, thanks for clarifying

 

[DeletedUser18111]

Ok, thanks for clarifying

Of course! I am really liking the vibe on the forum, everyone seems so nice. I am new, will do my best to carry the same vibe

 

[AtaguS]

I am really liking the vibe on the forum, everyone seems so nice. I am new, will do my best to carry the same vibe

Well welcome! And agreed, this is a particularly wonderful group of people! And, disagreeing is all part of discussing so no disclaimers necessary Glad you're here!

 

[NightshadeCS]

I suppose what the mods were implying when they closed the suggestion thread for this is that we must sometimes choose not to have our MA producing spells and crafting items. If you want your crafting to run 24/7, you had better go hard enough in the tournaments to acquire the relics.

What is a shame for some, like neeronie, is that she needs dust relics, which most will agree is the most difficult tournament. Since not all tournaments are created equal, I could still see an argument put forth that it would be NICE to have the relics changed in some way.

It used to be that the MA used all the relics that you did not need for your boosts. Once sentients were introduced, you were then using some of the relics you need for that boost in your MA.

Inspiring Meditation use one relic of each tier.
CC use one relic of each tier.
MM use two relics of T2, two of T3.

You only ever need to produce one IM per day. You can easily need more MM and/or CC than that in a single day.

A positive solution may be switching the costs of MM and IM.

I realize a lot of this may have balancing issues, but I would like to hear input from others who may like crunching the numbers or who like to draw the cause and effect lines that we may not be seeing.

 

[neeronie]

Hello!

I personally do not see the need for your suggestion, and I may be a loner here. I play the tournament on a regular basis and my 6 weeks average tends to venture between 3k to 8k depending on my mood. If I notice I am running low on a certain reelics, I go crazy extra that week for those relics lmao. It is hard for me to see any merit in your suggestion when I have atleast 1k of each relics, and I have over 300 counts of each spells.

The game is easy to play IF you really put some strategic thoughts into your playing style and the wonders you place (which is why it is call a game ). There are bigger fish to fry than having the developers waste their time on something that a player just need to twig their playing style to achieve. My question to you is how many cities do you play?

I just looked at your biggest city on elvenstat (attached your profile) and your average tournament score is less than 1.6k, meaning...you do not even score enough point to earn your spot in a 10 chest fellowship. When you look at mine, I earn more than enough of my spot in a 10 chest fellowship. Why should the developers address your unique concern, when they could do other things such as bringing a good visitation mechanism to the browser?

Just for some things to think about! I hope I am not coming off negative, I just want to put things in a perspective between those who tournament and fully take advantage of the tournament and those who do not.

I just noticed my dust is almost at 4k relics, the very one you are struggling with!

I do not believe you, I think you are doing your math wrong. I have been tournamenting since I began my elvenar journey and I do not think I have achieved that many dust relics in my 3 years of playing.

I just looked deeper into your elvenstat data, and your highest dust score is 2.3k since april 2018, that would give you something around 130 relics ...not to forget, that is not the total you have been achieving every dust since. I counted 13 (?) dust tournament in that range, assuming you have been getting exactly 130 dust relics each dust tournament, which means you have gained ‭1,690‬ relics since april of 2018. The lowest dust score I see from you is 864...so you have NOT even been achieving that.

Again, I am not trying to be negative, what you said simply does not add up. Your idea holds zero merit
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You are correct my numbers were off, neeronie on Aren number should have be 76125 and neeronie on Winy is 50760. I do not, however, agree that I need to or should have to, do more tournament. The dust tournament numbers are my efforts during a non push. My participation has dropped a bit since I started the city on Winy. I am not ashamed of my participation however. After a fairly quick scan, I find that I generally have been in the top 4 to 8 during dust tournaments and into the top 50% within my fellowship during a push even though they are not relics I need for making the enchantments I mentioned.

I do admit that I am not as clever a player as some others but I do question whether the game needs to be a chore for everyone but the most skilled. I know this is going to come off sounding like I am defending myself and to an extent I guess I am. In my opinion, the developers do need to do something about this or they will lose, as customers, all but the most skill players. The demand for certain relics has increase with the introduction of new items and if you are not in a Fellowship that happens to push the relics you need, you have to struggle or shop Fellowships for a relic instead of for how compatible you are with the members. After all, as you so rightly pointed out, this is a game and if one can only be reasonably successful if you adapt a "playing style" that is narrow, there are other games to be played.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

You only ever need to produce one IM per day.

Single IM is good for 48 hours.

 

[DeletedUser18111]

You are correct my numbers were off, neeronie on Aren number should have be 76125 and neeronie on Winy is 50760. I do not, however, agree that I need to or should have to, do more tournament. The dust tournament numbers are my efforts during a non push. My participation has dropped a bit since I started the city on Winy. I am not ashamed of my participation however. After a fairly quick scan, I find that I generally have been in the top 4 to 8 during dust tournaments and into the top 50% within my fellowship during a push even though they are not relics I need for making the enchantments I mentioned.

I do admit that I am not as clever a player as some others but I do question whether the game needs to be a chore for everyone but the most skilled. I know this is going to come off sounding like I am defending myself and to an extent I guess I am. In my opinion, the developers do need to do something about this or they will lose, as customers, all but the most skill players. The demand for certain relics has increase with the introduction of new items and if you are not in a Fellowship that happens to push the relics you need, you have to struggle or shop Fellowships for a relic instead of for how compatible you are with the members. After all, as you so rightly pointed out, this is a game and if one can only be reasonably successful if you adapt a "playing style" that is narrow, there are other games to be played.

Everything is about presentation, I feel you need to address this through a different type of presentation. I sense the developers will have the tools to truly identify if people are really in need of relics adjustment even if your idea makes it beyond the forum.

I feel the developers have introduced items to a to help players acquire excessive relics, unfortunately....it is through tournament. If you feel you do not have to do more tournaments to gain relics....the primary way to gain relics, I still feel your idea does not hold merit because you are essentially saying I will not plaay this game the way it is design, but I still want this perk to happen so CHANGE the game to satisfy ME. I mean sure, they can introduce a way to buy it with coins or goods but that will introduce another problem. Few months after the release you will have players here making new suggestions about how they need to get more coins and more goods because they have been buying relics. Which is a direct mirror of this thread, they have introduced a feature that you chose to take part in (without changing your playing style) and here we are discussing if they should do something about relics. It is dominoes effect that will ultimately satisfy no body and the developers are left chasing their tails.

The dust tournament is hard yes, but there are AW to help offset. They have introduce evolving buildings to make tournaments easy but yet we still have individuals stating tournament is hard. The developers will never win if people are not willing to play the game and just wants to be handed easy way out to play to achieve results they otherwise have to put extra effort in. There is literally an ancient wonder to increase the extend of MM, mine is currently at 60 hours, aka 2.5 days. One MM will give me 2.5 days worth of use. The wonder I speak of is the Elvenar Trade Center, I actually do not have it built because I always have excessive MM due to my continuous production of them through the Magic Academy.


Anyway, that is my personal opinion. Good luck with the discussion.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

There is literally an ancient wonder to increase the extend of MM, mine is currently at 60 hours, aka 2.5 days. One MM will give me 2.5 days worth of use.

Huh? ETC @ L30 only gives +100% duration, meaning 26h max - not 60h. Unless I am missing something, you probably just have several MMs stacked on a single building.

 

[DeletedUser18111]

Huh? ETC @ L30 only gives +100% duration, meaning 26h max - not 60h. Unless I am missing something, you probably just have several MMs stacked on a single building.

I do! thanks for catching, I was just about to edit...but will leave as it is due to your correction

Edit: It seems I was actually thinking about my Ensorcelled Endowment and the Lighthouse effect :O The wonder I meant to refer to is the Trade Center for clarification