Remove Cross-Tier trade restriction

[DeletedUser3507]

Heck because of tier 3 upgrades that I have completed to lvl 23 I have been offering tier 3 for tier 2 at 2 to 1 lately even if it cost me a heck of alot more to produce the tier 3, I really don't mind....

And Soggy calculated that my tier 3 went up like 67% in output...

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

you could always suggest that the people you trade with pay you FP's to whatever AW you want along with the goods. I see this all the time on FoE. I personally would like to see a 'treasury' for each fellowship where we could donate a set number of goods to new players..... as in 'new' not players new to the fellowship.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Our smallest player is in chapter 9, we don't take "New" players and maintain 1st in FS's ...

 

[Ashrem]

Providing unlimited goods as I am suggesting is already in the game.View attachment 2278
Currently it costs 45 diamonds for a KP and 24 diamonds for a night essence. And Inno can inject as many of those things as people are willing to spend diamonds for, but at those prices very few if any people are willing to spend diamonds.

The fact that few are willing to spend is what limits them. The more people spend, the more resources there are for the developers to improve the game. I'm okay with that. Making those resources cheaper puts more into the game with less return for the developers which does not improve the game. People who buy at a high, fixed price are buying me a better game.

 

[DeletedUser10114]

Pushing is a significant issue in resource-based games. Any breaking of the locks makes pushing easier.

Also, the current interface is prone to mis-clicks, which are already often annoying. The ability to post even worse trades would make that problem worse.

If they would let us filter out the 1 star trades? or block that 1 player that CONSTANTLY places 60 1 star trades and fills up the trader for days? that would be awesome.

 

[DeletedUser7748]

So, I agree that we should be able to post any trades we like. This is especially important during tournaments when we would like to help each other out to earn more chests or to help out some of our newer players.

 

[DeletedUser2509]

Cross Tier trades are actually a benefit. Mostly for the newer players but a benefit all the same. The 4:1 and 16:1 ratios are accurate. All trades are based on 1 day productions. There is no way to measure if the goods you or another are trading were created at 3 hrs, 9 hrs 1day 2 days bought with diamonds instances or from the wholesaler or even earned from a questline. Ahh and did I mention the manufacturing spell? And did you consider when factoring out the cost that your supplies and coins may have been affected by visits and spells too creating a ton of freebies that were not produced at all and are not connected to an allotted time or space. If you want to "accurately" look at a cross trade to decide if it is of value to you then you would need to only compare how much it would have cost you to produce that good. It actually is that simple. You would never go to a car dealer and ask them how much they paid for a car and then compare what other car dealers paid for cars they are selling. Your only factor would be how much you would have to pay for that car.

 

[Shanubi]

I cross tier trade fairly often, and I always make it a 3-star offer. Also, as suggested above, I trade at a "discount" to my fellowship members who are newer to the game. I've never run into any restrictions and my trades are always accepted.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

The fact that few are willing to spend is what limits them. The more people spend, the more resources there are for the developers to improve the game. I'm okay with that. Making those resources cheaper puts more into the game with less return for the developers which does not improve the game. People who buy at a high, fixed price are buying me a better game.

I have been a paying player for a long time, because I do agree with that.
However, over the last few months Inno has pretty much been working at making it unprofitable to buy diamonds. The premium cultural buildings are nice, but are being overshadowed and outperformed by the ones that are free to get in events.
The prices for reducing building time or scouting time are really ridiculously high in diamands, especially now that the timereduction instants have been introduced.
So what is left are the expansions (I don't have enough 'a's to sa how waaaaaaaaaaaay too expansive those are now) and the magical workshops and residences.
And sure, you can revive your troops after a battle using diamonds. (I wonder if there really are people who do so, seems like an utter waste of money to me).

 

[DeletedUser2509]

Instead of players concentrating on the misconception of "how much a trade costs" I wish Inno would do 2 things. 1) Change the expiration on trades from 7 days down to 2 days. 2) have an all out discussion on cross trades to see if it is possible to hammer out the misconceptions of cross trades being unfair. Also when I hear all this complaining of players in a fellowship, a lot of times I ask "did you put your filter on" They usually say no. When they try it viola cross trades disappear. Inno You really need to address this issue.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Cross Tier trades are actually a benefit. Mostly for the newer players but a benefit all the same. The 4:1 and 16:1 ratios are accurate. All trades are based on 1 day productions. There is no way to measure if the goods you or another are trading were created at 3 hrs, 9 hrs 1day 2 days bought with diamonds instances or from the wholesaler or even earned from a questline. Ahh and did I mention the manufacturing spell? And did you consider when factoring out the cost that your supplies and coins may have been affected by visits and spells too creating a ton of freebies that were not produced at all and are not connected to an allotted time or space. If you want to "accurately" look at a cross trade to decide if it is of value to you then you would need to only compare how much it would have cost you to produce that good. It actually is that simple. You would never go to a car dealer and ask them how much they paid for a car and then compare what other car dealers paid for cars they are selling. Your only factor would be how much you would have to pay for that car.

*sighs*....no, the 16:4:1 is actually not correct, which is something that has been discussed many times.
If you think it is correct, I'll be VERY glad to show you sometime, by trading all my tier3 stuff from 1 factory to your tier1 goods for a week or 2, and we'll see who is getting the best of that deal.
Spells are not relevant here.
And we're not talking about goods bought by the wholesaler either, so you keep bringing in points that don't have anything to do with the crosstiertrading.
I'm not opposed to people posting crosstiertrades, I just generally don't take them, since the ratio deemed as 'fair' by the game isnt

 

[DeletedUser2509]

*sighs*....no, the 16:4:1 is actually not correct, which is something that has been discussed many times.
If you think it is correct, I'll be VERY glad to show you sometime, by trading all my tier3 stuff from 1 factory to your tier1 goods for a week or 2, and we'll see who is getting the best of that deal.
Spells are not relevant here.
And we're not talking about goods bought by the wholesaler either, so you keep bringing in points that don't have anything to do with the crosstiertrading.
I'm not opposed to people posting crosstiertrades, I just generally don't take them, since the ratio deemed as 'fair' by the game isnt

What it costs me to produce anything is irrelevant to what it costs you to produce anything. I have yet to ask another player how much their production cost before taking a trade. The value of your goods to me is what it would cost for me to produce them.

This is what my costs would be right now.
Tier 1 LVL 23 (boosted) 700% Relic Bonus = cost per unit 2.5 coins
Tier 2 LVL 19 (boosted) 700% Relic Bonus = cost per unit 10 coins
Tier 3 LVL 19 (boosted) 700% Relic Bonus = cost per unit 40 coins
Tier 1 LVL 23 (non-boosted) 0% Relic Bonus = cost per unit 20 coins
Tier 2 LVL 19 (non-boosted) 0% Relic Bonus = cost per unit 80 coins
Tier 3 LVL 19 (non-boosted) 0% Relic Bonus = cost per unit 320 coins

This is what A Cross Tier Trade would cost me:

Cross Trade Boosted VS Non Boosted (Pay VS Cost to Produce)
16 T1 Boosted traded for 1 T3 Non Boosted = Costs 40 VS 320 (also 2.5 VS 20)
4 T1 Boosted traded for 1 T2 Non Boosted = Costs 10 VS 80
4 T2 Boosted traded for 1 T3 Non Boosted = Costs 40 VS 320

And this is for Same Tier Trading.

"Normal" Trade Boosted VS Non Boosted (Pay VS Cost to Produce)
1 T1 Boosted traded for 1 T1 Non Boosted =Costs 2.5 VS 20
1 T2 Boosted traded for 1 T2 Non Boosted = Costs 10 VS 80
1 T3 Boosted traded for 1 T3 Non Boosted = Costs 40 VS 320

So you can see there is actually no difference between Within Tier and Across Tier Trades.

**Please Note**
Boosted per piece costs are affected by level of Manufactory and Relic Boost however Non-Boosted Manufactory is affected by neither.
Cost to produce a Non Boosted will always be greater than a Boosted.
Anytime a trade of Boosted for a Non-Boosted no matter what tier is a gain.
Anytime a trade of a Non-Boosted for a Non-Boosted no matter what tier is a breakeven.
Anytime you trade a Non-Boosted for a Boosted no matter what tier is a breakeven. (your non-produced non-boosted become valued at boosted cost after trading).
Sooo Yes the 16:4:1 is always correct.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@SynCere Talon
If your city is making tier 1 and
my city is making tier 3
It is impossible for you to produce 16x what I produce in the same space-- that is why it's not fair of me to expect you to take my 16:1 trade.

Spoiler: Here is a city making 400 Dust x 16= 6400 steel

Spoiler: Here is a city making ~6400 steel using steel factories

Here is an example with higher level buildings:
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...ase-notes-version-1-17.6402/page-7#post-40769

 

[DeletedUser2509]

@SynCere Talon
If your city is making tier 1 and
my city is making tier 3
It is impossible for you to produce 16x what I produce in the same space-- that is why it's not fair of me to expect you to take my 16:1 trade.

Spoiler: Here is a city making 400 Dust x 16= 6400 steel

View attachment 2568

Spoiler: Here is a city making ~6400 steel using steel factories

View attachment 2569

Here is an example with higher level buildings:
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...ase-notes-version-1-17.6402/page-7#post-40769

If I feel a trade is "unfair" to me I don't take it. How much space and what your costs are become irrelevant in the trader. Your "Boosted" Goods become "Non-Boosted" goods to me. So there is no way I could produce the same amount of goods for the same cost in the same space in the Same tier even. Non-boosted goods cost the same per unit no matter what level the manufacturing building size is. And all goods change on a per square basis depending on the number of hours of production. Per square of space is only relevant to Culture. Neither time nor space should factor into the value of a goods. How would you use "Space" to justify trading within tier as "fair". Each player will be producing a boosted good at a different rate per square when you factor in Building level and Relic Bonus. So lets say a fairly new player trades his tier 1 boost to a veteran player for tier 1 goods. The new player will be making less goods per square and at a higher cost per unit and he will receive another players boosted goods that cost that player less per unit and were produced at a more goods per square. However lets view this from a different angle. If you had to produce non-boosted on any tier for a set price (20, 80 and 320) would you do it? Or would you trade your boosted at a lower cost for non-boosted that now become valued at your boosted costs. Its is not fair to me for other players to horde or with hold goods. It is fair to me to post trades and allow me to decide for me what is fair. Everyone is trying to look at both sides of the coin when they should only concentrate on the side that shows the true value of the coin.

 

[SoggyShorts]

How would you use "Space" to justify trading within tier as "fair". Each player will be producing a boosted good at a different rate per square when you factor in Building level and Relic Bonus.

The simple answer is you compare apples to apples. If both players are in the same chapter with the same boost %, how much can they make?
There is a reason why virtually every fellowship in the top 100 on every server doesn't allow members to only make Tier 3 buildings while expecting other FS member to take 16:1 trades.
All goods from all tiers are needed by all players. Tier 3 buildings produce about 1/5 as much per square as Tier 1 buildings, but the trader is set so that 1/16 is a 2 star trade.
If you open the spoiler tags at this link https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...ase-notes-version-1-17.6402/page-7#post-40769
You can see that even a player with just 100% boost can make more T3 (at 16:1) than a player with 700% boost making tier 1.

Its is not fair to me for other players to horde or with hold goods. It is fair to me to post trades and allow me to decide for me what is fair.

Wait... So it's fair for you to post and take trades that you find acceptable, but not for others to refuse those trades if they find them unacceptable?
Of course you can decide what trades you want to post and accept, but that doesn't automatically mean they are fair, and you shouldn't expect them to be taken by others unless they think they are fair.

The reason so many of us have asked for a change in the 2 star ratio is that the current ratio hurts new players. Many new players post cross tier trades that never get taken and become disheartened by the "lack of players taking their trades", not knowing that the reason is that many other players are either good at math, or have had the proofs explained to them.

 

[DeletedUser2509]

The simple answer is you compare apples to apples. If both players are in the same chapter with the same boost %, how much can they make?
There is a reason why virtually every fellowship in the top 100 on every server doesn't allow members to only make Tier 3 buildings while expecting other FS member to take 16:1 trades.
All goods from all tiers are needed by all players. Tier 3 buildings produce about 1/5 as much per square as Tier 1 buildings, but the trader is set so that 1/16 is a 2 star trade.
If you open the spoiler tags at this link https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...ase-notes-version-1-17.6402/page-7#post-40769
You can see that even a player with just 100% boost can make more T3 (at 16:1) than a player with 700% boost making tier 1.


Wait... So it's fair for you to post and take trades that you find acceptable, but not for others to refuse those trades if they find them unacceptable?
Of course you can decide what trades you want to post and accept, but that doesn't automatically mean they are fair, and you shouldn't expect them to be taken by others unless they think they are fair.

The reason so many of us have asked for a change in the 2 star ratio is that the current ratio hurts new players. Many new players post cross tier trades that never get taken and become disheartened by the "lack of players taking their trades", not knowing that the reason is that many other players are either good at math, or have had the proofs explained to them.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree about Cross Trades. I place my trust in Math, Science and the laws of Economics.
When did I ever say other players can't refuse my trades? This is one of the reason I think they need to change the trade expirations from 7 days to 2 days. if a trade is posted and no one takes it then it should expire instead of sitting and clogging up the trader.
Sorry but I have to snicker at that last remark. New players aren't hurt by other players not taking their trades because of those reasons. It is because of wide spread misinformation And yes I have done the math and even posted it. I can't recall the last time I walked into a store and my money was refused nor can I remember them asking me how many hours I worked to make that money. I would never buy a car dependent on how much the dealer paid for it. Your Boosted Goods are only Boosted Goods to You they are non boosted Goods to everyone else and all non boosted goods have a set value that never changes. I stand by my math.

 

[Mykan]

*sighs*....no, the 16:4:1 is actually not correct, which is something that has been discussed many times.

That ratio is 100% correct based on the premise it uses, which is the cost to produce. Many players use a different basis which results in a different ratio. People are free to trade at the different ratios and many do, but it doesn't make the ratio of 16:4:1 incorrect it just makes it different.

There is a reason why virtually every fellowship in the top 100 on every server doesn't allow members to only make Tier 3 buildings while expecting other FS member to take 16:1 trades.

I think this is touching on a separate issue which while related it is different.

 

[Ashrem]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree about Cross Trades. I place my trust in Math, Science and the laws of Economics.

Actually, you are trusting in a limited subset of the math, science, and laws of economics. Soggy showed you the hard facts that producing T1 goods takes up more space than producing T3 goods, but you choose to ignore that particular bit of math etc, because it doesn't support your preferred outcome.

In Elvenar, the only scarce resource is land. Anything else can be obtained in (relatively) infinite supply day, after day, after day. If you are willing to throw infinite cash at it, you can remove the relatively and have as much as you want. The only resource that you can not obtain more of every morning when you wake up, and are forced to stop buying at some point, is land, so in Elvenar, Land is the single most valuable resource, and T1 goods are the single most land-intensive thing to produce.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@SynCere Talon
Just look at your own city.
Unless you have wildly different boost % for each tier, you will see that your tier 1:2:3 produce about 5:2:1 on a per square basis per day.
Don't forget to include all workshops, culture and roads needed to support each building.

You say you believe in math, science and the laws of economics. If everyone in the world can make widgets at half the cost/time/space of making dinglehoppers, then dinglehoppers should have a fair trade value of 2 widgets.

Inno only used the supplies cost when creating the 16:4:1 ratio. They failed to account for the fact that the culture&pop requirements between each tier are at a very different ratio.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Is Inno going to retoractively change event buildings here as well? Which one is next? Its extremely annoying to notice that on beta. How the heck is one supposed to make a choice on going for a specific event building when the stats are changed days after the event is over?