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    Your Elvenar Team

Resolve Tech Tree / Chapter Quest Apparent Conflicts

Make quest optional when tech is optional

  • In Favor

    Votes: 13 100.0%
  • Not in Favor

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .

OIM20

Well-Known Member
For those who remember, this suggestion was included in a prior thread with the intent that the OP could have used it to make theirs a formal suggestion thread. Since that didn't happen and the thread was archived, I'm putting it forth as a formal suggestion. The text is mostly copied directly from the post where I originally made it.

________________________________________________________________​

Proposal: Make chapter quests of optional techs optional / non-required.

Changes were made to some of the techs in the tech tree in 2020 (thank you @Iyapo1 for the year) that made those techs optional. However, the quest requiring the research of the tech was not made optional. This may have been an oversight on Inno's part, and I would like to see this changed so that gameplay for those wishing to complete these optional techs later (or not at all) is not limited/restricted.

Screens:
Dwarves tech tree, "City Expansion 21": Dwarves-CE21.jpg Please note the arrows pointing out the lack of connecting branches from this tech, letting players know that it is optional.

Dwarves quest: "Creating Space": Dwarves-Creating Space.jpg This is, as you can see, not an optional quest. As it comes so early in the chapter, players must complete it if they want to receive any benefits for completing the quests during the Dwarves chapter. As @HonuMoana pointed out, the quests within the chapter give rewards in copper and granite, guest race goods that are not usable for anything other than street construction once the chapter is completed (which is when the quest would be naturally declinable with the current programming parameters).

This is not true in all cases of techs that are optional. You can decline some quests for a chapter's research within that chapter. For example, in Fairies, the tech "Trees and Lampions" is optional. The quest requesting its completion, "Natural Culture", is also optional and can be declined while still within the Fairies chapter.

Screens:
Fairies tech tree, "Trees and Lampions": Fairies-Trees and Lampions.jpg Please note the arrows pointing out the lack of connecting branches from this tech, letting players know that it is optional. Please also note that this tree clearly shows that only some progression has been made through the Fairies chapter, so including a decline option on a quest within a chapter is possible.

Fairies quest: "Natural Culture": Fairies-Natural Culture.jpg

I propose that the parameters of quests aligned with optional research techs be altered so that the quests are also optional.

Pros:
  • Able to use KP how we choose and ignore optional techs until such time as we wish to complete them
  • Players don't feel lied to about a tech being optional when a quest such as "Creating Space" in Dwarves pops up
  • Players can proceed through a chapter and take advantage of the guest race goods offered as rewards for quests that come after the required-optional tech completion quest
Cons:
  • Developer time to make certain that the parameters of "research completion" quests in all chapters (not just the specific one used as an example here) match the parameters of the tech being researched. For clarity: if the tech is not required to proceed through the tree, the quest should not be required to proceed through the chapter- and thus, the game.
(It took me a while to be able to post this because I had to get one of my early-chapter cities up to chapter six to be able to provide the screens as evidence that "Creating Space" is not something that can be declined.)
 
Last edited:

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I can see your point, although most of the time, I don't worry about the quests at all. I just wait until the next chapter, decline the one that was problematic, and then bam! Christmas! I get a whole bunch of goodies at once. I prefer it that way, because it feels like I'm progressing faster (I know I'm not; it just feels that way, lol.) But some people would like being able to decline before the end of chapter, so I'm okay with it either way.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
Particularly since the changes to how difficulty in tournies are calculated, and in light of this example of an optional expansion, I am all for this change. Keeping player choice at the top of Inno's priority list is a good thing, as it is one of Elvenar's strong suits in my opinion. The more options a player has to approach the game through their desired strategy, the better.
Yes, one can ignore the chapter quests but sometimes the rewards given are desirable and useful, and giving those up just to keep the option open of not doing an optional tech... seems a steep price.
This gets my vote.
 

bkbajb

Well-Known Member
I can see your point, although most of the time, I don't worry about the quests at all. I just wait until the next chapter, decline the one that was problematic, and then bam! Christmas! I get a whole bunch of goodies at once. I prefer it that way, because it feels like I'm progressing faster (I know I'm not; it just feels that way, lol.) But some people would like being able to decline before the end of chapter, so I'm okay with it either way.


I do the same thing. I also do not agree with making these quests optional. While some may seem unnecessary they do serve a purpose. It slows players down. Newer players need those quests to help build their cities. The example above stating the quest that gives copper and granite. During the chapter it helps. If you are waiting until the end of the chapter then it does not. It has been a long time since I was on that chapter but I am sure that is was appreciated. I will admit that I do look at my current chapters quest list to see when I can start skipping quests until the end of the chapter. The same thing can be said about PP's, and I am guilty of this. I get my chapters portal up to level 4 and then use them. Before we had those we had to take the time and build up the appropriate goods to continue across the tech tree. Again, I am guilty of this since I get so many PP's. But at the same time as the chapters get harder, it is a handy tool
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
While some may seem unnecessary they do serve a purpose. It slows players down. Newer players need those quests to help build their cities.
Good point, there certainly is a purpose to forcing a player to complete certain chapter quests, especially in the beginning. If this suggestion were to make all chapter quests optional I wouldn't vote for it either. But the suggestion only covers those chapter quests which involve tech advances which are already made optional (because they do not advance you in the tree).
If the tech is placed in the tree because it is necessary for the player's game development or to slow a player down, then it wouldn't be put at a dead-end, opening up the possibility of the player skipping it.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
But the suggestion only covers those chapter quests which involve tech advances which are already made optional (because they do not advance you in the tree).
Precisely. Is there some language I need to include to clarify this point in the opening post?
 
I can't presume to read the developer's minds, but I agree with the OP in that if the research is optional, then there shouldn't be a required quest to finish it. I vote yes to make quests for optional research optional with the understanding that Inno will tie any research that is not optional (or for which they wish to slow the player down), into the main research tree.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
It only makes sense that an optional tech must not be required for a storyline quest. However, the title for this thread makes me go. 'Whattt?' There should be a much simpler name for it.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Suggestions to that effect? (But it did get you to click on it to find out what I was talking about. ;) )
Too late for me to think on it. I'll let my brain work on it while I sleep. As for getting me to click on it, nope. I look at all the idea and suggestions when I'm online, at least during the weekend.
 

Momonar

Member
Chapter Quests.... lots of thoughts on this.

My interpretation is that the Chapter Quests were created to help players "figure out" what to do to progress through the chapter. When chapters were simple (early chapters), there was really only 1 path with at most a couple of possible sequences of completion, so the quest line generally matched. However, the introduction of settlements led to 2 goals in a chapter (goal 1 - maximize settlement development / production to unlock technologies, goal 2 - reap the rewards of new unlocked technologies). The addition of new resources (unurium, seeds, mana, orcs) led to another goal (produce those goods ahead of chapter progress). Finally, the addition of new goods (sentient, and now ascended) opens another parallel goal.

All of these innovations are cool and lead to more fun and game variability, however, the linear chapter quest system no longer fits.
Given all the additional game complexity, a better system is an "achievement" system similar to what many other mobile games offer. Each category of achievements levels at its own pace, and is independently accessible. So how would this translate to Elvenar:

Well, take the chapter quest list, split it up into achievement categories (ex: production categories for each significant resource or new resource that you want to introduce to the player, tech unlock category to provide a tech unlock sequence recommendation to the player, settlement category for significant settlement milestones, optional quest lines). The quest icon reserved for chapter quests can now open a dashboard with the current quest of each category. Clicking the category could bring up a list of all quests in the category with status (completed, in-progress, locked).

Achievements of any quest in any category should be automatically completed when the requirements are met regardless of sequencing (i.e. all quests active all the time), but allow the user to collect the reward on their time schedule (just like the latest adventure quest rewards in which the rewards are claimed by the user when they want, not automatically when the reward is earned.

This type of system would allow more flexibility and options in chapter design and participation rewards as well as give those over-achievers out there something to excite them about their progress.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
Honestly, @Momonar, that sounds like it should be its own suggestion thread.

I agree that the chapter quests are basically a tutorial. However, I'm not asking them to overhaul the entire interface with this suggestion. The only issue I'm trying to resolve is forcing players to complete techs that players are led to believe are entirely optional. If it doesn't lead anywhere on the tech tree, then it's supposed to be an optional tech that you don't have to complete in order to progress.

As I understand what you're saying, it is certainly something that would bring about a great deal of discussion. But you're wanting to completely change the system that exists. With this thread, I just want them to make it so that if a tech is optional, the quest that says "do this tech" is also optional. They've shown they can do it with the "Trees and Lampions" quest and tech in Fairies (ch 7), so there's no excuse for the disparity between "Creating Space" (quest) and "City Expansion 21" (allegedly optional tech, given that it doesn't attach to anything else on the tech tree) of chapter 6, and the aforementioned quest/tech in chapter 7.

I certainly encourage you to open a thread that offers a suggestion for a complete overhaul. I'd like to see how that would break down, where you think the change should occur (beginning in Dwarves? Further along since they're the easy guest race?), and how it would be implemented. I think it would be very time intensive to recode the game, and I don't know if the servers would have to be offline for a lengthy amount of time in order to implement all of the changes you're proposing.

Regardless, it's an idea that merits its own separate suggestion thread.
_______________________________________________​
@helya, I think this is ready for a vote for the suggestion at issue in this thread, which is just making the quest optional if the tech is optional.
 

helya

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Any chance you've kept a list of these quests? I don't want to waste my time looking if you do.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
I can tell you the techs that aren't connected, and for the first 16 chapters, I can give you the quest names from ElvenGems if there are any.

Chapter 1 unconnected techs don't have associated quests. The techs:
  • City Expansion 1
  • Squad Size Upgrade 3
Chapter 2
  • Tech: City Expansion 3; Quest: "Space for Bigger Armies" (elves) / "Grand Armies Need Space" (humans)
  • Tech: Squad Size Upgrade 5; Quest: "Grand Army for Grand Tactics" - per ElvenGems is limited to humans
Chapter 3
  • Tech: City Expansion 6; Quest: "Space to Live" (elves)
  • City Expansion 8 and City Expansion 9 appear in the same quests and not separately.
    • The elves quest ("A Gift of the Golems") is like the human quest for CE6 noted below, so I don't think it should change since CE7 is required.
    • The human quest ("Place of Honor") is not declinable and only includes CE8 or 9 as the tech part of the quest. There are other obligations listed on ElvenGems for that quest. I don't have a human city, but I can make one in one of the 5 worlds where I'm not currently. It might take me a couple weeks or so to get to chapter 3 to see if this is several quests with the same name or if it has 4 parts as listed on ElvenGems.
  • Squad Size Upgrade 9 - This one is already able to be skipped per ElvenGems. Humans: "Size is Strength"; Elves: "A Strong Army"
The human quest for CE6 ("Space for Town Preparations") also includes CE7, which is required to advance on the tree. It's non-declinable status should remain, I think, because it includes something that is required for progress through the tech tree.

Chapter 4
  • City Expansion 11 - quests for both humans and elves include a CE tech that is required to get through the tree; CE11 is listed as an "or" in those quests ("A Place for Magic" - humans; "Room for Growth" - elves).
Chapter 5
  • Squad Size Upgrade 13 (no quest requirement for either race)
  • City Expansion 16 - included in quests with other CE techs that are required to advance (elves: "The Magic Current I; no human quest that corresponds to this tech)
  • City Expansion 20 - included in quest with other CE techs that are required to advance for humans: "Dragon Magic IV". For elves: "Room for Harmony". ElvenGems says it's declinable, but I just did this in my Harandar city and I don't recall a red "decline" button on the quest screen. I didn't do a capture or a video, sorry.
  • Squad Size Upgrade 15 - Elves: "Magic Takes Effect", not declinable; no human quest
Chapter 6
  • City Expansion 21 - "Creating Space" (screens above, in opening post ;))
  • City Expansion 22 (an argument could be made for Squad Size Upgrade 16 if you didn't want the expansion either, since that's the only thing the SSU tech connects to) - no quests for either CE22 or SSU16 listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 17 - "Dwarven Art of War"
  • City Expansion 26 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 7
  • Squad Size Upgrade 20 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • City Expansion 27 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Trees and Lampions (quest "Natural Culture" is declinable as shown in opening thread post. Please note that ElvenGems says this cannot be declined, but I have screens above to the contrary.)
  • City Expansion 28 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 8 (where my Elcy city is, and not very far in - I haven't placed the portal)
  • City Expansion 32 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 25 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 26 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • City Expansion 35 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 9
  • City Expansion 36 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 28 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • City Expansion 38 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 30 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Marble Grafting Site - "Marble Grafting Site" (x3)
  • Steel Grafting Site - "Steel Grafting Site" (x3)
  • Planks Grafting Site - "Planks Grafting Site" (x3)
(On those grafting sites - they don't connect to anything other than the "Forest Fabrication" which appears to be a method to refine mana into T1 goods. I'm not sure this is something that was intended to be optional, though? It's not quite the same as a culture tech or the SSU and CE techs.)

Chapter 10
  • City Expansion 39 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 32 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 11
  • Squad Size Upgrade 39 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 12
  • Squad Size Upgrade 42 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 13
  • Squad Size Upgrade 47 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 14
  • Squad Size Upgrade 48 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 15
  • Squad Size Upgrade 52 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Flow of Magic Statue - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 53 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Dolphin Fountain - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 54 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • City Expansion 46 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Improved Academy of the Elvenar - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Ancient Vault of Wisdom - "Disciples of the Elvenar" (#16 in the list with this name)
  • Squad Size Upgrade 55 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • City Expansion 47 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
Chapter 16
  • Squad Size Upgrade 56 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Union Tower - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Squad Size Upgrade 57 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Fountain of Peace - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • City Expansion 48 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Temple of Serenity - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Final Dwarven Embassy - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Final Fairy Embassy - "Family Reunions" (#11 with that name in the list); requires level 4 tea houses, which are part of this tech as I understand it.)
  • Improved Meditation Circle - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • City Expansion 49 - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Union Street - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Tournament Arena - no quests listed on ElvenGems
  • Spire Library - no quests listed on ElvenGems
ElvenGems quest list data ends at chapter 16, but below are the techs that don't connect to anything for 17-19.

Chapter 17
  • City Expansion 50
  • Squad Size Upgrade 60
  • Squad Size Upgrade 61
  • Squad Size Upgrade 62
  • Dune Street
  • Squad Size Upgrade 63
  • Dragon Ark
  • Oracle of Fortune
Chapter 18
  • Squad Size Upgrade 64
  • City Expansion 52
  • Squad Size Upgrade 66
  • City Expansion 53
Chapter 19
  • City Expansion 54
  • Squad Size Upgrade 68
  • Squad Size Upgrade 69
  • City Expansion 55
  • Squad Size Upgrade 70
  • Squad Size Upgrade 71
  • Vallorian Seal Tower
  • Tree of Enlightenment
....And those tech descriptions in chapter 19 - things just got dark in Elvenar, didn't they?

I hope that helps some.
 
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Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
@OIM20 just want to point out that there have been a number of changes to the quests in the past couple of years and elvengems has not been able to update their lists for hardly any of them, especially the earlier chapters, which have been reworked a couple of times by Inno. Also, the chapter 9 grafting sites are requires guest race production buildings for anyone without the portal profits to clear the chapter.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the heads up on that, @Enevhar Aldarion. If the tech names don't help @helya find the quests if they don't match up to what info was available on ElvenGems, I can open up a new elf city and a new human city (don't have one of those) in worlds where I'm not currently to get those quest names from the earlier chapters for her.

I did wonder about some of those techs that weren't SSUs or CEs or simple culture research that didn't have anything branching off. I get the AWs in later chapters being like that (sorta) - if you don't want those AWs, spending KP on researching them does seem like a waste when you can put it into AWs you do want.

I don't mind opening cities in other worlds and going through the first few chapters if that would help you, @helya. It might take me a few weeks to get up through chapter 4/5. And I haven't played as a human yet. ;) After all, it was the thing I listed as a con, so having the data in advance does remove that aspect, yes?
 

helya

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
No need, I can use my test account to find them. I was just being lazy.

Chapter 1-5 are being reworked so there's not really any reason to even check those right now.
 
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