Rising Goods Boost

[DeletedUser8946]

Why a cap of 700%? Requirements rise as you move on in chapters, and which tournament you choose to participate in becomes irrelevant after the Dwarf chapter, or whichever you cap at 700%. There's no amount of relics that will get you past this impenetrable barrier, short of Mountain Halls which raise production boost of ALL buildings, and not by a whole lot.

I propose that the cap for each Good is lifted by 50% in each chapter, one Tier at a time. This way it would align with the upgrades for the buildings. So if you're boosted in Marble, Silk, and Gems, you're able to get a 750% boost of Marble as soon as you unlock Dwarves, 750% Silk in Fairies, 750% Gems in Orcs, then 800 or 850 in the next three chapters. That way you don't have three sets of relics that are completely irrelevant.

(Unless we're able to disenchant them, which certainly be an improvement.)

I would suggest the same thing for Sentient Goods, but by my own logic T1 Sentient Boost wouldn't rise to 750% (w/out Mtn Halls) until you complete the Advance Scouts two chapters after Amuni.

 

[shimmerfly]

Can I vote twice?
I like it!

 

[SoggyShorts]

500 relics get you 700%.
How many relics do you propose it would take to get to 850%?

 

[DeletedUser8946]

If every 10 relics raised it by 8%, by my calculations that would be 167. For Woodelves, quite manageable. Raising the # of relics required wouldn't be amiss.

 

[Mykan]

Had to pick the last voting option so I could see the poll results. While I don't mind the cap increasing I am also comfortable if it doesn't. What I definitely do want is to see some use for boosted goods relics once they cross 500. The tiny amount that get used on wonders doesn't really count in comparison to the volume of relics that you get from all sources (quests, scouting, tournaments, events). Also not counting FA use as that is optional

Other relics we can make spells with so an option to use them by increasing the cap or in some other fashion would be fine as long as they had a use.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I think increasing the cap wouldn't get the desired effect. Right now there is a feeling of "why stop at 700%? It should be higher" This would just change to 850% or whatever the new cap is. 10 relics increasing it by 8% means that a 2K tournament player could reach the new limit in a week.

Perhaps better would be having no limit, but with diminishing returns. Like 10 relics for 4%, increasing in relic cost forever
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/115qGVmEmsL5HyMpORQ3Vyu9SriNQijj3CLfX4YlDS98/edit?usp=sharing

With that formula, my 2,000 relics would have me at 880% and I'd need 60 more relics to get another 4% boost. I'd be happy with that

 

[DeletedUser3507]

I think increasing the cap wouldn't get the desired effect. Right now there is a feeling of "why stop at 700%? It should be higher" This would just change to 850% or whatever the new cap is. 10 relics increasing it by 8% means that a 2K tournament player could reach the new limit in a week.

Perhaps better would be having no limit, but with diminishing returns. Like 10 relics for 4%, increasing in relic cost forever
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/115qGVmEmsL5HyMpORQ3Vyu9SriNQijj3CLfX4YlDS98/edit?usp=sharing

With that formula, my 2,000 relics would have me at 880% and I'd need 60 more relics to get another 4% boost. I'd be happy with that

In my opinion that would affect tourneys and Inno would mess with us further in a bad way..,

 

[SoggyShorts]

In my opinion that would affect tourneys and Inno would mess with us further in a bad way..,

I'm not sure I understand. How would it affect tourneys? Make them too easy because players would have too high a boost %?
Using myself as an example
Level 6 mountain halls
2,000 relics

Current boost 748%
New Boost 924%

That is an increase of about 23%.
Hmmm yeah maybe too high. How about half?
Sheet updated, now 2,000 relics would be 788% +48 MtHall= 836%
an increase of under 11%

More reasonable?

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Yes...
Just recently I upgraded my Mtn Hall to 200%.. your way I would have been over 1000%

Spoiler: Relics

 

[Pheryll]

One of the problems is that there is a devaluing of mountain halls by increasing the cap. Currently a level 30 mountain halls is stated at 260%, but this is just 160% plus the base 100%. Add in the relic 700%, and the mountain hall's 160% addition is only a 20% increase to total production (800% + 20% of 800% is 960%). As the cap goes higher, mountain halls is still only contributing 160% of the base 100% which becomes a lesser percent of the capped quantity.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I see what you are saying @Pheryll, but while the MtH contributes less as a percentage the higher your relic boost gets, it doesn't actually change how many goods the MtH gives you.

 

[Mykan]

The other factor is the higher level production buildings are likely scaled based on the 700% cap. A change in the cap could see those production levels reduced.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

I vote no for 2 reasons:
1. It guts Mountain Halls as an effective wonder.
2. What's the point? So you get more goods. Guess what, Inno then just makes the goods requirements that much higher.
The one positive I'd see is that this would punish players who don't advance in chapters, but still are active in tournaments. Because they'd have a lower goods production than those that proceed, and all other tournament costs being equal (assuming no squad size techs), the ones who advance can produce more goods.

 

[DeletedUser8946]

I vote no for 2 reasons:
1. It guts Mountain Halls as an effective wonder.

Nope. I've always found the greatest use of Mountain Halls is Population, same as Golden Abyss but bigger. And as was stated earlier, it still gives everyone the same # of goods regardless.

2. What's the point? So you get more goods. Guess what, Inno then just makes the goods requirements that much higher.
The one positive I'd see is that this would punish players who don't advance in chapters, but still are active in tournaments. Because they'd have a lower goods production than those that proceed, and all other tournament costs being equal (assuming no squad size techs), the ones who advance can produce more goods.

Point is that boosted relics finally have a use. Unless you can disenchant them, after 500 they're pretty much useless. I like @SoggyShorts idea of the values decreasing over time. Maybe still a hard cap of 800 or 850% eventually, but it would take a LOT of relics to get there. You'd have to tourny hard for weeks, plus provinces. More motivation for tournaments, instead of picking at random or trying to do them all. Additionally, this would mean most high-ranking FS members would have more Goods to trade for the players in earlier chapters to help them get along.

I think increasing the cap wouldn't get the desired effect. Right now there is a feeling of "why stop at 700%? It should be higher" This would just change to 850% or whatever the new cap is. 10 relics increasing it by 8% means that a 2K tournament player could reach the new limit in a week.

Perhaps better would be having no limit, but with diminishing returns. Like 10 relics for 4%, increasing in relic cost forever

Hmm, I see what you're saying, but I think there should still be a limit, but have diminishing returns all the same. Maybe the final push for 850% would be 10 relics for 1%. It'd be aggravating, but motivational all the same.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

Nope. I've always found the greatest use of Mountain Halls is Population, same as Golden Abyss but bigger. And as was stated earlier, it still gives everyone the same # of goods regardless.

No, it worsens the MH. The amount of goods doesn't change, but its relative value changes, as @Pheryll points out. If the overall value of the MH, on a goods-per-square compared to the new factory values (because factories are more valuable, because boosts without the MH is higher) is lower, then the MH's value, relative to spending the space on factories or other AWs, is worse.

Boosted relics already have a use. Once you hit the cap, you need to keep acquiring those relics for when you start upgrading AWs (which often require your boosted relic). This is not a good mechanic if your only intent is to find a use for boosted relics.

And MH for population is crazy. Its not the same as the GA, it is about 33% as good as the GA. GA is 2.25% of working pop over 9 squares (so 0.25 working pop per square). MH is 2.25% of working pop over 24 squares (or 0.09 working pop per square). And they scale the exact same as levels increase. The bonus pop on the MH is a nice justification for building/levelling the MH. But if you really only care about pop, you're waaay better off levelling the GA. And that's not even factoring in the MH is 1.5-2x more KP per AW level than the GA.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

The other factor is the higher level production buildings are likely scaled based on the 700% cap. A change in the cap could see those production levels reduced.

That's my main point. Increasing the cap doesn't likely make managing goods "any easier." You produce more, but then the game is balanced around more production. So you still devote the same resources to goods production, with 2 changes:
1. At the start of each chapter, you now have to race to increase your boosts (if you haven't already), and
2. The people who get to the required relics for 700% are punished for not keeping up.

If the goal is to have something to do with boosted goods, I think looking elsewhere makes more sense. Random ideas but:
-convert relics into something else - 5 marble relics can be converted into 1 plank relic.
-more places to "spend" relics - like in the FAs - it makes an easy path forward for FSes with advanced players with lots of boosted relics, but so long as there are other non-relic spending paths, smaller/younger FSes aren't too harmed.
-more uses for relics - seems like crafting is in some form or another going to provide options here.
-give fewer relics and give more of other stuff in tournaments - I don't want to see this actually, because its useful for events, but still, an option.

 

[DeletedUser8946]

No, it worsens the MH. The amount of goods doesn't change, but its relative value changes, as @Pheryll points out. If the overall value of the MH, on a goods-per-square compared to the new factory values (because factories are more valuable, because boosts without the MH is higher) is lower, then the MH's value, relative to spending the space on factories or other AWs, is worse.

Boosted relics already have a use. Once you hit the cap, you need to keep acquiring those relics for when you start upgrading AWs (which often require your boosted relic). This is not a good mechanic if your only intent is to find a use for boosted relics.

And MH for population is crazy. Its not the same as the GA, it is about 33% as good as the GA. GA is 2.25% of working pop over 9 squares (so 0.25 working pop per square). MH is 2.25% of working pop over 24 squares (or 0.09 working pop per square). And they scale the exact same as levels increase. The bonus pop on the MH is a nice justification for building/levelling the MH. But if you really only care about pop, you're waaay better off levelling the GA. And that's not even factoring in the MH is 1.5-2x more KP per AW level than the GA.

It's not the same as GA, but it's another population building that's better then Residencies all the same. Sure, you can upgrade the GA, but there comes a point where it's better to upgrade MHalls then the Abyss. It's a lot easier to get the Halls to Level 6 then the Abyss from Level 12 to Level 18. I've always just considered it a population building like the Abyss, but bigger since by Dwarves you have more space then you did when you got the Abyss. The Goods boost is nice.

That's my main point. Increasing the cap doesn't likely make managing goods "any easier." You produce more, but then the game is balanced around more production. So you still devote the same resources to goods production, with 2 changes:
1. At the start of each chapter, you now have to race to increase your boosts (if you haven't already), and
2. The people who get to the required relics for 700% are punished for not keeping up.

I'm not saying the Goods requirements should skyrocket throughout the chapter. Raise slightly, yes. But not go sky-high. Alternatively, you could say that there is now reason to get relics at the beginning of the chapters, and people who participate in tournaments are further rewarded.

-convert relics into something else - 5 marble relics can be converted into 1 plank relic.
-more places to "spend" relics - like in the FAs - it makes an easy path forward for FSes with advanced players with lots of boosted relics, but so long as there are other non-relic spending paths, smaller/younger FSes aren't too harmed.
-more uses for relics - seems like crafting is in some form or another going to provide options here.

All good ideas. I've been asking for relics disenchanted for awhile now.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

I'm not saying the Goods requirements should skyrocket throughout the chapter. Raise slightly, yes. But not go sky-high. Alternatively, you could say that there is now reason to get relics at the beginning of the chapters, and people who participate in tournaments are further rewarded.

I know you're not saying the requirements should skyrocket. But the reality of your proposed change is that they would go up (skyrocket? go up slightly? unsure - depends on Inno's developers). Probably by however much you increased the boosts. Because that's generally how the game development works, and because Inno has decided that if you want to progress at a certain pace, you need X% of your city devoted to factories, etc.

One other reason this is a bad idea. Right now we have the concept of "boosted" relics. At some point, there won't really be boosted relics, because T6, T7, T8 and T9 (assuming this practice continues) will mean that you "need" all relics. And if you're already spending relics on spells and AW upgrades, you're creating a world where you either need to collect waaay over the threshold of every relic, or every time you decide to cook a spell, you double-check that it won't send you under a max boost. Granted, that's a long way off, assuming 2 chapters a year. But still.

 

[SoggyShorts]

1. It guts Mountain Halls as an effective wonder.

I wouldn't go that far. If you have 3 of each factory, the Mountain halls is still better than adding another factory even if your boost was 1100% which would take 26,000 relics with my formula. That is assuming your MtHalls gives you zero population.

I'm all for other uses, especially disenchanting, but I figured I'd go with this threads idea in this thread.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

'Gut' might be an overstatement. But MH doesn't boost sentient goods (which is an independent problem), so as the game progresses, it becomes less and less valuable (assuming sentient goods are a thing in Ch 15 and onward - a safe estimate). And its population boost is meh, as noted above, compared to the GA. And now if we increase the relic boost, we decrease the relative worth of the primary MH effect. True, its not 'on the net' a huge nerf like the change to the Crystal Lighthouse was. But I don't think its a good idea.