Rune Shard Losses

[ajqtrz]

How many times have you collected rune shards and seen them go into the great beyond because your rune shard bar is full (contains 10)? And if the rings of your AW's are filled you can't even empty it, right? In other words you lose the rune shards because you have no place to put them or use them at the moment.

On the other hand, you do have a need for Runes, right? You could use a few more Thermal Springs of Youth runes or a few more Dwarven Bulwark ones. You can, of course, go out and get them via contributions to other's AW's, or doing provinces or something. And eventually enough will come...eventually.

How about even when your rune shard bar is filled you just go to the AW needing runes, click on "forge rune" (as you already do when the ring isn't filled) and if the ring is filled you get a rune in inventory? That way every time you fill your rune shard bar you have a way to empty it and thus to not lose the rune shards you win.

Pros:
1) You don't lose the rune shards you win
2) You have some incentive to craft rune shards now.
3) The programming has to be easy as it's almost all done already -- just add a line that if the rune circle is filled the rune goes into inventory instead of filling a slot in the ring (which you can't do, of course).

Cons:
1) hmmmm...... I'm thinking......... I can't think of any. (I'll bet somebody will come up with an obvious one.)

AJ

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Just to be picky, but there is no limit on Rune Shards, the limit is on Broken Shards. Might want to adjust the title and stuff, so as not to confuse people.

 

[SoggyShorts]

As a temporary fix I like this for early-mid players, but for advanced players,

On the other hand, you do have a need for Runes, right?

My honest answer is "No, not really." By the time I put ~3,000 KP into a wonder to get from rune phase to rune phase I've got enough runes to do it, or close enough that in a day or two I'll get it.
Here's an example:
10 wonders at level 11, plan is level 16 for all of them.
That's around 30,000 KP. To get that KP from the tournament means also getting ~300 runes, at least some of which will be useful.

Even in the worst-case scenario where a wonder magically appeared in my city and I had zero runes for it, with my phoenix, banquet, winter set, the tournament, and maybe a Ferris wheel, I could fill it in 7 days.

I'd be happier to trade my full broken shard bar for some KP. Like the crafting recipes, but I need all 3 recipes every day

 

[Aritra]

I like this. I was a bit distressed when I only needed two more broken shards, then I won five. Lost three. Just three but loss is felt when they're needed. If the KP bar is full, reward KP is piled on, not lost. The shard bar should work similarly. Should not be penalized for acquiring more than bar could hold. Excess pile should accumulate somewhere.

 

[Iyapo1]

As a temporary fix I like this for early-mid players, but for advanced players

Just wanted to say my largest city is in chapter 5. I only have 1 wonder(GA lv18). I have no need for rune shards.
I could break enough rune shards to forge about 18 unbreakable rune shards.

This is not for early or mid game players. This would be for players with a large number of wonders. It is not an issue I have but I have no objection to the suggestion. I like what @Aritra suggested better. Just let them stack.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Just wanted to say my largest city is in chapter 5. I only have 1 wonder(GA lv18). I have no need for rune shards.
I could break enough rune shards to forge about 18 unbreakable rune shards.
This is not for early or mid-game players.

Sorry, my definitions might be different and totally biased: chapters 1-5 are pretty much the tutorial, 6-10 are early, 11-14 mid, and 15+ late

So to be clear, I think this idea would help those around chapter 10, give or take a few.

I like what @Aritra suggested better. Just let them stack.

This doesn't really work for mid to late game(see above) players since many are losing shards every single day.
I've literally lost thousands, so if they stacked up then Full runes would become totally worthless since I would get 90 broken shards far faster than I would reach a rune phase.

 

[Iyapo1]

Sorry, my definitions might be different and totally biased: chapters 1-5 are pretty much the tutorial, 6-10 are early, 11-14 mid, and 15+ late

You should at least lump 6 and 7 in with the tutorial section so the "real" game divisions are proportionate.

 

[SoggyShorts]

You should at least lump 6 and 7 in with the tutorial section so the "real" game divisions are proportionate.

In my mind it's roughly time-based: the first 5 guest races, then the next 4 and the last 3.
Granted I've never done chapters 6&7 with portal profits, so those might be crazy fast now. I also haven't adjusted my thinking to really include chapter 17, so that's probably off too.

 

[ajqtrz]

As a temporary fix I like this for early-mid players, but for advanced players,

My honest answer is "No, not really." By the time I put ~3,000 KP into a wonder to get from rune phase to rune phase I've got enough runes to do it, or close enough that in a day or two I'll get it.
Here's an example:
10 wonders at level 11, plan is level 16 for all of them.
That's around 30,000 KP. To get that KP from the tournament means also getting ~300 runes, at least some of which will be useful.

Even in the worst-case scenario where a wonder magically appeared in my city and I had zero runes for it, with my phoenix, banquet, winter set, the tournament, and maybe a Ferris wheel, I could fill it in 7 days.

I'd be happier to trade my full broken shard bar for some KP. Like the crafting recipes, but I need all 3 recipes every day

I'm in chapter 16. I think that qualifies for "late game." My TSY was acquired in chapter 15 and now has 3 runes ready for the rune phase. It will take at least 30-40 runes to fill the rune wheel when I get to the rune phase. This is the case because, as you know, the last 3 slots often can only be "force filled" by forging a rune from the rune shards. It therefor takes 10 runes for each of those slots, or 30 runes. This means about 37 runes to fill the rune wheel. As you know those runes come from attempting to use a rune to fill a rune wheel slot.

In any case, when the TSY hits first rune phase will I have the runes available? As you note: " By the time I put ~3,000 KP into a wonder to get from rune phase to rune phase I've got enough runes to do it," which means you go slow enough to accumulate the right runes through tournaments, etc. before you get there (or can generate them in a week after arrival). But what if you get there earlier? What if you get there in six weeks or less? Let's say that, in that time, you do the tournament to the 25th province x 6 -- a hefty performance. That would net you 49 random runes a week. Since there are about 25 AW's you would net, on average 2 runes of the proper type per week or 12 runes. That's better than 0, but no were near the 37 you will need to fill the rune wheel. How can you then raise those in a week? One way could be to gather rune shards and convert them. But of course you can't do that. You can do exactly 1 that way and even then you have to wait for the rune phase since you can't convert the rune shards to anything that doesn't have an empty slot on the rune wheel. As you suggest, you could wait for the rune phase, put in the 12 you have and probably fill 6-7 of the rune wheel slots. But the last three will take 30 rune shards to forge them. You can gather runes or rune shards and do this. 2 runes will come from the tournament as described and be used to reduce the rune shards needed to forge the last 3 runes as they will be converted to rune shards as they are used. Of the remaining 28 seven can come from the Ferris wheel some can be crafted and the rest from other places. All of this, I trust, can be done in a week, though the details past this do escape me.

But why wait a week? Since you are constantly earning rune shards and since those shards can forged into a shard, why do you have to wait for the rune phase to do so? This is the chief reason for my suggestion. I've earned enough, rune shards to forge the needed runes for the rune phase, but I've had to throw them away because I have no way to convert them on the fly or, as Aritra says, to store them until needed.

This is easily fixed by either the method I propose or by Aritras'. Of the two her's is probably the better, though it it may take more coding. My suggestion makes it possible to covert the rune shards to runes as you go and store them with the already stored runes. The down side of this is that when you go to use them to fill one of the rune wheel slots they may turn back into a single rune shard -- a 90% loss. Since this occurs about 1/3 of the time though, storing them with my method should result in a 33% loss. Still not good, but at least you aren't getting a nearly 100% loss as is the current state of things.

In the end Aritra's suggestion is better than mine if the rune shard bar is converted to unlimited storage of rune shards. It would mean that every rune shards would become a needed rune (as is the case when you fill the rune shard bar currently AND you have an opening in the rune wheel). On the other hand, Aritra's suggestion might take more coding to extend the rune bar to make it more or less unlimited while the coding for converting rune shards to runes is already there for the most part, though, to be honest, I'm not sure of which would take more coding.

If people prefer Aritras' suggestion I'd go with it too.

AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

It will take at least 30-40 runes to fill the rune wheel when I get to the rune phase.

That seems very high. I thought it only took ~23 to get 7/9 on average. Perhaps my memory fails on that though
@MinMax Gamer could perhaps shed some light on this?

As you suggest, you could wait for the rune phase, put in the 12 you have and probably fill 6-7 of the rune wheel slots. But the last three will take 30 rune shards to forge them. You can gather runes or rune shards and do this. 2 runes will come from the tournament as described and be used to reduce the rune shards needed to forge the last 3 runes as they will be converted to rune shards as they are used. Of the remaining 28 seven can come from the Ferris wheel some can be crafted and the rest from other places. All of this, I trust, can be done in a week, though the details past this do escape me.

Fire chicken is good for 1 per day as is the banquet, 6 from sled carousels makes 8 plus Ferris wheel makes 9, for 63 per week. Also, the tournament itself is good for another 25 Broken shards. Up to 88 in a week now.
Open up the Thrones, Enar's or any other crappy wonder and smash some runes on it for an easy 100+ Broken rune shards in about a week. More than enough to do it even if your numbers are right and my luck is bad.

Man, seeing just how many shards I've lost over the years is annoying...

 

[ajqtrz]

Yeah, annoying, isn't it? I don't play to be annoyed and the solution to it is easy. The total of 7/9 seems right for the first 7 but it's the last 3 of the run wheel you usually have to forge -- meaning 30 rune shards, hence 37. That's been my experience though, to be honest I haven't tracked it formally.

In any case I didn't doubt you could get 30 rune shards (or three runes for the rune wheel) in a week. I looked at the tournament rewards for last week (10 chests) and I did miss the 25 rune shards there at 25x6. However, that's 6750 points and most players aren't going to be able to sustain that level. So lets say 8 rune shards (13 x 5 for 2730 pts). So per week: 7 chicken, 7 banquet, 7 Ferris wheel, 42 sled carousels, makes 63 rune shards. Tournament 8, makes 71 total so you can get enough to forge 7 rune wheel shards in a week. And that's with 7 expiring buildings you have to replace. That still leaves 29 rune shards or 3 runes to get. If you do the 2730 pts tournament you get 18 random runs, about 1 rune you need most weeks so you are still 19 rune shards short. In the end, if you have none when you get to the rune phase you can do it in a week if you have "all the right stuff," but that's a lot of carousels and Ferris wheels. I would think it more likely you's have 2-4 carousels and Ferris wheels for up to 28 rune shards a week rather than 42 and thus need a lot more time than a week. But it's a quibble in some ways since why should you have to wait a week if you've already earned the runes and enough rune shards to make the needed runes? Because you can't store more than 10 rune shards is why.

And that's annoying. Annoying is not fun. Annoying is receiving nothing for the rewards you earned because somebody decided to throw them out before you could use them.

So whatever solution is adopted it should be adopted as it let's us use what we earned, which is satisfying, not annoying.

AJ

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

That seems very high. I thought it only took ~23 to get 7/9 on average. Perhaps my memory fails on that though
@MinMax Gamer could perhaps shed some light on this?

The way I fill in the wheels, and assuming you already start with maxed out shards, it only takes ~18 runes to fill in the whole wheel, on average (IIRC).

 

[ajqtrz]

The way I fill in the wheels, and assuming you already start with maxed out shards, it only takes ~18 runes to fill in the whole wheel, on average (IIRC).

I do hope you've actually measured this as my experience seem to be that the last 2-3 runes always take a forged one, which means 10-30 rune shards. Assuming you have a few already there the minimum I would think would be 19 and the average a bit more than that. I'll track my actual numbers and if you've measured this and mine turn out as I expect, I'll just chalk it up to a lot of bad luck on my part. Somebody has to have all the bad luck, you know.

AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

The way I fill in the wheels, and assuming you already start with maxed out shards, it only takes ~18 runes to fill in the whole wheel, on average (IIRC).

This sounds more like it. I've never actually had to test my theory that I could do one in a week because I always did it on the spot by smashing on crappy wonders.
I'll try to math it a bit:

So, the average without accounting for starting with a full rune bar or gaining another while inserting is 25.5, much lower than 37.
That aligns with my experiences.
Rough strategy coming in with a full bar:

1. Use ~7 runes to get the first 5 spots
2. Use your full bar to grab spot #6
3. Use ~12 runes to grab spots 7&8 and fill your bar
4. Use bar on #9 unless you got lucky

Total runes used: 19ish

For me, since I will never place the Thrones, Enar's, WT, BTG, CLH, LGN, Maze, or ST I can easily get away with even fewer needed by rune smashing.
Add my sets and a couple from the tournament for another full bar and the strategy becomes

1. Use ~9 runes to get the first 6 spots
2. Use your full bar to grab spot #7
3. Smash runes on bad wonders to grab #8
4. Collect from buildings and do a little tournament to grab #9

9 runes used, no need to wait a week. And remember, this is only for a brand new wonder. In practice, I'm leveling several wonders at time so most will have several weeks if not many months between rune phases.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I do hope you've actually measured this as my experience seem to be that the last 2-3 runes always take a forged one, which means 10-30 rune shards. Assuming you have a few already there the minimum I would think would be 19 and the average a bit more than that. I'll track my actual numbers and if you've measured this and mine turn out as I expect, I'll just chalk it up to a lot of bad luck on my part. Somebody has to have all the bad luck, you know.

18.3 is a simulated result over millions of samples. This lines up very well with my real-life AW upgrades over the course of 1.5 years. The only time I had to resort to building and breaking crappy AWs for broken shards was then I was rushing max TimeWarp upgrades right after unlocking the AW, and I've had less than 10 runes to begin with.

 

[Sir Squirrel]

I think the Devs said they were going to address the loss of broken shards over a year or more ago. Nothing so far though. I would support this going to the Devs, maybe they need a reminder!!

 

[SoggyShorts]

I think the Devs said they were going to address the loss of broken shards over a year or more ago. Nothing so far though. I would support this going to the Devs, maybe they need a reminder!!

I think when they implemented the 3 rare moderately helpful crafting recipes they believe the issue to have been addressed.

 

[ajqtrz]

@SoggyShorts

I think your estimate is probably closer to the truth than mine. But a bit optimistic. Here's why.

You've just emptied our rune shard bar (on 6). You can do 7 by either filling your rune shard bar and forging a rune, or, if you are lucky, using a rune directly. You assume the direct approach will be successful. My experience is that it is not. I, therefore, must fill the rune bar to fill the 7th rune circle slot. Ditto for the 8th, you assume it will take a single rune, my experience is that it will take 10 to fill the rune shard bar and forge the 8th rune. Ditto for the 9th.

If I'm right to fill the rune circle slots I begin with 5 runes (as you say), do the 6th with my rune shard bar (because the probability of the rune going into the 6th slot directly instead of become a rune shard is less than 50%, I assume) and then go on to the 7th. If I hit (one out of 3 times I will) great, but on average I'll use 3 runes to fill the 7th slot in my rune circle. My 8th will take 5 runes on average and my 9th around 9. 3+5+9 is 17. 17+5 =23. So your calculations are probably right more than mine if they base percentages are accurate.

My experience is only that. AND, to be honest, I could be remembering the negative more than the positive (normal human behavior) and thus estimating the number of runes I'd need higher than I've actually needed.

If my experience is right though, The 7th, 8th and 9th will take at least 20 runes to fill the bar twice (and get lucky once). So my cost would then be 5+30 or 35 total.

But even if my memory is faulty in the matter, why should I need to wait to spend what I've already earned to make runes from rune shards? I've already won/earned/bought them and thus I should be able to use them. That, I think, is the reason this needs to be changed.

AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

If my experience is right though, The 7th, 8th and 9th will take at least 20 runes to fill the bar twice (and get lucky once). So my cost would then be 5+30 or 35 total.

That's' really bad luck.
For #7 it's a 1 in 3 chance, so 6 tries really should do it.
For #8 it's almost 1 in 5 so you should get it in 10 tries
For #9 your bar is full after failing so much on 7&8

That's 16 runes assuming your luck is absolutely terrible. for a total of 21.
Also, since our complaint is about having a full bar all the time I'm not sure it's fair to count those in your 35 number.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Spoiler: 5 seconds into starting the current event