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    Your Elvenar Team

Show Spire Scores for FS Members after Spire has Finished

Show Spire Scores for FS Members after Spire has Finished

  • In Favor

    Votes: 81 93.1%
  • Not in Favor

    Votes: 6 6.9%

  • Total voters
    87
  • Poll closed .

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
But I'm guessing Lelanya was talking about people who newly join the fellowship, as opposed to people who were already there and didn't have that requirement when they joined.
Yeah that was very clear. Two sets of rules one for the new people and one for established players.....many FS have this they simply reverse the order and have lower expectations of new FS members.
 

NightshadeCS

Well-Known Member
If I was a long-term member of a fellowship and they instituted a new rule, especially one tied to performance, I sure as heck would expect a little time to gradually meet that requirement. Can you imagine having to change your playstyle overnight to accomplish the goal? As long as I was showing definite progress toward the new goal, I should not be booted out.

I am sure eventually, new and old members will have the same requirements, since enough time has passed that everyone currently in the FS is reaching the goal.

I would also hazard a guess (don't want to project here) that if a new person wanted to join but asked for a few weeks leeway in making that goal, they would be at least considered. But recruiting is hard enough and no AM wants to let in a bunch of people with promises of performance that are never met. The people you have been working with for extended periods of time deserve the benefit of the doubt because you are least familiar with their play.

If you don't like that program, don't apply to that fellowship.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Two sets of rules one for the new people and one for established players.....many FS have this they simply reverse the order and have lower expectations of new FS members.
I don't think she meant that there are two different sets of rules. More that, in a transition, there needs to be some grace for people who are trying to meet a new standard. Change is hard, and sometimes slow.

It's all about transparency and consistency. If an AM arbitrarily tells incoming members they have to beat the frog when very few existing members are doing that, then I can't imagine the new people would stick around or honor that commitment. But if the group has a goal and a standard (let's all beat the frog!), you absolutely don't want to admit new people who can't or won't support that goal. Even if you don't have 100% success with existing members yet, you've got to make sure new people are on board with where you're going, and not just with where you are today.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they're already hitting the mark you've set - sometimes it's ok to bring people on who are still working towards it. But if you're trying really hard to bring up the group's overall scores, then sometimes you don't have capacity to take on a long-term growth prospect; you need somebody who can contribute here and now.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I have been able to upgrade the FS mimimum to frog boss for all NEW players
and existing ones are understood to be gearing towards that.
I don't think she meant that there are two different sets of rules.
I could be wrong but I think she said exactly what she ment, right down to the NEW players.
Because players who are not new would skip instantly and not even feel bad!
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
@NightshadeCS I dont disagree with anything you said, I have a problem with joining a FS and being told I am expected to kill the frog every week and then having a handful of "established" members sitting an entire floor below the minimum given to me by the AM or the FS recruiter.
 

Alram

Well-Known Member
If an AM arbitrarily tells incoming members they have to beat the frog when very few existing members are doing that, then I can't imagine the new people would stick around or honor that commitment.
Some new players do feel like they owe something to the FS that took them in. I know that when I was in ch2, I considered the person who gave me 5000 of each T1 awesome. I know now, 15000 t1s is nothing to an established player.
*(I do still think that player is awesome :) )
 
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Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper
@Alram based on feedback from more established players, it is more difficult for them to climb the Spire than it is for me in chapter 4, especially as they haven't planned their cities to accomplish this. But I'm guessing @Lelanya was talking about people who newly join the fellowship, as opposed to people who were already there and didn't have that requirement when they joined.
Again: 5 full years leading in some capacity in Elvenar, am not looking for advice at this point. Please try and avoid sounding like you are trying to do that.

My signature fellowship is Boudicca's Iceni (original, EN2) as my EN Forum signature incorporates the concept of Boudicca, leader of the Iceni, war leader of the Celts, at a watershed time in Great Britain history. Of course Frog boss is listed in the FS requirements, and of course like all Celtic groups we have/are debating this, with an assurance to our members who joined under different rules, that they will be allowed to grow into their strength so long as they are doing the best they can. I have all along stated in the Gold Spire debate, that I AM a large somewhat older FS that has served as a model in the past for extreme performance; like all FSs of this type, we got bogged down a bit and have fallen off the pace. I would never rule out this crew though, our rebound has started.

It still would be best for me, for my crew, to have a record, even if only internal, of how the individual members performed in Spire. Inno introduced this idea, made it the new equivalent of '10 chests' and now leaves us without the support of knowing how we are each doing so far as progress.

Edit: @Iyapo1 this is approximately 3 players around your own level. As their leader of course I have their back :)
 

Alram

Well-Known Member
I had not considered the issue from the perspective of players with lots of accounts on all servers. It would be hard to remember that many.
 

Gladiola

Well-Known Member
@Lelanya was your comment about advice directed at my post? I am not sure what part of it could be construed as advice. I was attempting to make a distinction between players who are new to the game vs. those who are new to the fellowship who might or might not be established players and to reflect that it may be more difficult for established players to adjust to new features and/or policies. I did not express any opinion about fellowship or archmage policies in general or yours specifically.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Delegate authority. Spread the responsibility. Establish a chain of leadership. Give your lieutenants a chance to invest in their FS.
No one wants the job of being online every Friday from 3:55 to 4:00. Why would they?
Simply leaving access to that purple bar for an extra ~12h solves this- it provides flexibility and room for real life.
It amazes me how everyone is galvanized behind an idea that might...perhaps...benefit 5% (likely less) of players (AMs)
This is disingenuous. Something that makes the lives of AMs (and lieutenants as per your recommendation) easier benefits their whole team.
Perhaps the source of my objection is the support my data-suggestion did not receive (perhaps not)
So your objection is actually based on.... spite?:confused:
 
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SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
In comparison, @SoggyShorts , I understand you have a number of calculating spreadsheets at your disposal. Do you hunt and peck, filling in cells by hand? Wouldn't it be a great benefit to have these auto-fill and have the results in a matter of seconds rather than hunting for data?
Do you know what I would hate? If the data for my spreadsheets deleted itself every Friday at 4:01 pm unless someone baby-sat it from 3:55 to 4:00.
 

Gkyr

Chef
So your objection is actually based on.... spite?:confused:
Perhaps not.
I would like to see the efforts that we take to be delivered to the devs for game improvement - and we don't get a lot of shots at this - to benefit the majority of players in the greatest way possible. It does not have to be my ideas.
Since I already asked you...what are your views on how a data download would facilitate the various calculating spreadsheets that you use?
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I would like to see the efforts that we take to be delivered to the devs for game improvement - and we don't get a lot of shots at this - to benefit the majority of players in the greatest way possible.
Counter-point: leaving the results of the spire up for a few hours would be a very quick and easy implementation.
The effort: benefit ratio for this proposal is fantastic.
Since I already asked you...what are your views on how a data download would facilitate the various calculating spreadsheets that you use?
I'll have to take another look at your proposal to see what the purposes could be.
For my spreadsheets, I don't think I'd actually use it, sorry. My calculations are for planning, not current situations.

E.G. the training calculator I made is for deciding how many buildings/AW levels to aim for based on the length of your desired AFK periods.
How many you currently have isn't really important, and let's face it: players know how many armories they have anyways.

Off the top of my head, other information that might interest me is readily available on Elven Architect.

That said, others might find a use for it I haven't thought of and I will have another look at it.
Edit: we shouldn't forget the ever-growing mobile-only segment of players for whom all spreadsheets and a data download would be of very limited use.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Here is a semi-random example of why being able to see who did what after the Spire ended for the week can matter. In another thread we talked about the number of fellowships that actually got to Gold last week, and when I looked at Arendyll's numbers, one fellowship finished 2 points short of gold, with 1328. If no one there admitted to missing the goal, and the AM and Mages could not be around at the end, no one would know exactly who screwed that fellowship out of the gold rewards.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
If implemented, it would open the Spire data to the API so we can have more pretty graphs to look at on Elvenstats (after the poor guy does all the volunteer work to code it) :)

Most competently run FS will scope a candidate out on Elvenstats first before deciding what to do with the applicant and the growing trend is a lot more FS are re-organizing to go for Gold Spire. Even if Gold Spire isn't your thing, I'd say management that take the time to create extra spreadsheets and stuff for their FS run far more competent fellowships in general. You're not gonna wonder what you're supposed to do when FA starts bc all you hear is crickets. Your AM is not gonna go AWOL. You're not going to have a roster full of inactives. It's generally a better gaming experience under better management. There's a lot more hustle and bustle. If the trend is that most FS are reorganizing to go for Gold Spire, then the good management teams are going to flow towards that trend as well. Like anything else, if Spire data starts showing up on Elvenstats too, you might as well pick the candidate with more Spire activity if all else being equal.
 

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper
Why are we agreeing that having our gaming monitored in yet another metric is better than nurturing good Mageship? Is it so ridiculous to expect an AM to assign a new player to one of her lieutenants, saying, "let me know how this one (or these two) finish up the Spire", and perhaps repeating this for a second or third FS. Doesn't this establish a good chain of oversight? Isn't this expert level of leadership more desirable than establishing yet another readout?

If I know who is struggling reaching the top then I can offer help, e.g. tips to cater and/or fight or help with goods. Some players don't respond to general messages offering help, but IF I KNOW who struggles then I can message them directly.

It amazes me how everyone is galvanized behind an idea that might...perhaps...benefit 5% (likely less) of players (AMs) while a suggestion that will certainly benefit all of us remains largely ignored.

That suggestion is: ask Inno to provide each of us with a data stream that contains all of our buildings and all of our processes and the intervals to completion. We can import this data into spreadsheets that tell us exactly when to be online to complete our harvests. Better than guessing and forgetting.

I agree this suggestion doesn't help everyone, as those players/fs who don't care about spire won't benefit. But I disagree it only benefits AMs. If I can help some of my players do more in spire cause I know who to offer help then I believe this benefit the whole fellowship.

I am not sure if I understand your suggestion correctly. But I doubt everyone would know what to do with the data stream? And it sounds like the purpose with the data stream is to give me information about my city not how much everyone in my fellowship is doing in spire, so it doesn't sound like it will give me the information that I need. (And it will probably be a lot more expensive to implement than my suggestion?)

The devs, as we know, are not sitting around, waiting for suggestions from us to work on. It requires us to select our suggestions and requests to be those that will benefit the most of us to the greatest extent possible.
I would like to see the efforts that we take to be delivered to the devs for game improvement - and we don't get a lot of shots at this - to benefit the majority of players in the greatest way possible. It does not have to be my ideas.

I agree we should try to make suggestions that benefit many, but I don't think we should only look at how many they benefit but also how expensive they are to implement. Suggestions that are expensive to implement should preferably benefit most players, but sometimes small changes make a big difference for less players. And I believe the voting is meant to decide if I am the only one wanting this change or if others want it too.
 

Alram

Well-Known Member
@The Fairy
I'm sorta "new" .
I don't think you should ask for a vote until after we all.discuss a topic. You seem to think you should ask for a vote before we all discuss a topic.

Can someone not at all "new" please explain the forum polling to us?

*new seems to be an indefinable word.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
Can someone not at all "new" please explain the forum polling to us?
While the original request to add a poll did come before most of the discussion there was a gap of 4 days after posting and really this request is more of a User Interface Quality of Life suggestion with virtually no downside. Frankly I'm surprised there is much discussion at all as this falls into the no-brainer category. This is also just the first formal suggestion on the topic, it has actually been brought up a few times in other threads since it's a pretty obvious oversight.

Even now, 4 pages in, there are no reasonable objections other than that there are other (more tedious) ways around the issue this suggestion is trying to solve.

At its core, all that is being requested is for the already displayed information to be displayed for longer.
 
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