Slight adjustment to rune shard rewards in AW's (discussion)

[Dominionofgod]

The current system for rewarding rune shards for donating to aw's is that the highest donator get a shard or maybe two, and it goes progressively down form there for the next highest donator. A system i full understand. However i would like to see a slight alteration to that. And thats anything past a base amount (deepening on aw and level) should get a shard.

And this is directed more at the higher end donators. As you can see in this example from a fs members aw a week or so ago, the #5 entry donated 90kp and gets only a small kp instant since his 'number' on the highest list is low. However you can see he donated a pretty high amount none the less. - Its one thing if #5 was only 10 or 20 kp. But i think when a person is donating a high amount like 90 in this example, they have 'earned' there shard reward.

Which is why i suggest keeping the system in place, but adding a base amount that if reached will grant you a shard reward.

 

[NightshadeCS]

This is an interesting idea, and could have a lot of ramifications...

It would probably have an effect on how wonder programs worked, since it would then be advisable for everyone to donate that benchmark amount to get a shard, and spread your KPs around more evenly, rather than putting hundreds in one person's.

I my fellowships, part of the benefit of donating so much KP is for a chance at a chest. We all get back the KP we put out, since we have swaps or a wonder program to ensure that. It could help the people who have less KP to spend from being prevented by the big spenders from ever getting the runes they need. However, if you are in a good FS, it should be ok to request the top spot for a rune you really need. I am quite surprised that I have actually never seen this happen in the many years I have been playing this game.

I would be interested to know how many people have found themselves in desperate need of a rune shard they cannot get. I remember a time or two where I went around randomly donating KP to people's wonders in hopes of getting a rune prize, and it would have been wonderful to have a guaranteed way of doing that. I could have donated, say 50, KP to one AW rather than hoping to get a chest after donating 10 to 5 different random people.

 

[Dominionofgod]

keep in mind how many runes it takes to fill in 10 slots on a single round of a single AW given you can have duplicates. - The very top chest only gets 2 shards once the aw is mediume/higher level. The rest only get 1 shard or 0 shards. So i dont think adding a benchmark would drastically change the rune balance of the game because you would only be getting one shard.

And i do think, at the moment, that the bench mark would have to be set per level and per aw since they vary in kp needed so greatly. A flat line bench mark thats the same across all aw i think would not work well. I know that would be a little more work to program, but i think the results would be better.

I just feel that theres a certain level of donation where you have earned the one shard despite your ranking. A high benchmark i think might also encourage ppl to donate to others AW's. And encourageing ppl to be active is usually a good thing. Especially in kp chains/kp swaps. Because if you have to low a participation in it, it falls apart. - So i think they would have to be picky as to where they placed a benchmark, but i think it would yeild positive results.

 

[ajqtrz]

We do "Shout Outs" to insure almost all chests are claimed by our fs. Most of our players participate and it really does accelerate the last part of the AW upgrade process. If you were to put in a minimum amount needed to get a rune shard I'm not sure our players would continue doing the SO's since they would feel they needed to do the "minimum." Generally at this time they put in around 10- 20 on average and in the process collect however many chests are still available. For instance, I might be at 430KP in my GA and need 530 to reach the next upgrade slot. I put in chat: SO: GA 100/3 (100 being the KP needed to the next upgrade and 3 being the number of unclaimed slots). People then jump in and claim one of the remaining chests, usually putting in between 10-20KP. Usually the AW is ready to go within a couple hours, or close enough that the owner can finish it off easily. Sometimes it's even finished in minutes. But, if you had a minimum to get a shard and people thought they had to do the minimum the SO process we use would fall apart.

So while I applaud the idea of adjusting the chests to give more people shards, I'm not sure a minimum would work.

AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

We do "Shout Outs" to insure almost all chests are claimed by our fs. Most of our players participate and it really does accelerate the last part of the AW upgrade process.

Why not flip it and do a shout out when you start a wonder? Announce the next wonder that you are working on and have your FS take all of the chests. This way you can fill as you please.

 

[ajqtrz]

@SoggyShorts I'll give that some thought. I think if we did that we'd have to specify a limit or people wouldn't know how much to put in -- uncertainty is off-putting to participation. But it is definitely an idea to consider. Thanks!

 

[Dominionofgod]

People then jump in and claim one of the remaining chests, usually putting in between 10-20KP. Usually the AW is ready to go within a couple hours, or close enough that the owner can finish it off easily.
AJ

That wouldnt effect anything i mentioned/suggested. You are talking about low levels of donation. I am talking specifically about high levels as i illustrated in the OP and the pic. 10-20kp is nothing to this. As you can see in my example i am talking about ppl that reach higher numbers, in this case, close to 100kp donated and still dont get a shard.

For instance, I might be at 430KP in my GA and need 530 to reach the next upgrade slot. I put in chat: SO: GA 100/3 (100 being the KP needed to the next upgrade and 3 being the number of unclaimed slots). People then jump in and claim one of the remaining chests, usually putting in between 10-20KP.

on a side note; a 500~ish kp aw usually only has 4 or 5 chests that contain shards. If your reaching near the end of that upgrade and you still have a lot of chests unclaimed, then that would suggest your fs does not have a very good kp chain/swap method, or that noone is using it. - An open one sometimes is one thing, but if thats a common occurrence as you suggest then something else is wrong imo.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@SoggyShorts I'll give that some thought. I think if we did that we'd have to specify a limit or people wouldn't know how much to put in -- uncertainty is off-putting to participation. But it is definitely an idea to consider. Thanks!

The net zero swap.

They put in exactly enough to break even.
E.G. If the chests are
5,10,15,20,30 KP then the donators put in
5,10,15,20,30 KP
This way your FS gets 100% of the chests every time*

Sure, the donators don't get a profit (other than free runes), but if your whole FS does this, then you are basically getting all of your wonders leveled at a ~20% discount.

*The only thing that can "go wrong" is if some random player comes in and dumps 31 KP to "steal" a 30 KP chest and the rune. If this happens, simply refund the "bumped" player(s) KP by donating extra to them. Your FS still makes a profit, even if all chests are "stolen" which would be extremely unlikely.
Also, you do need a mature FS for this to work as you could have a few hundred KP tied up in wonders at a time.
------------------------------
@Dominionofgod This could work for your FS too if you add in a "rune request" thread where players who are looking for a specific rune can let others know and then the FS can leave top spots in the zero sum swap open for them on those particular wonders. It's not likely that many FS members need the same runes.

 

[Dominionofgod]

@Dominionofgod This could work for your FS too if you add in a "rune request" thread where players who are looking for a specific rune can let others know and then the FS can leave top spots in the zero sum swap open for them on those particular wonders. It's not likely that many FS members need the same runes.

If by chance a aw gets to the end and chests are available, well mention it so some ppl can grab one. Weve never had an issue of outside ppl donating to snag a shard. And to be honest, someone giving 'free' kp to us is hardly a downside for us.
But we have several KP Chain threads going. Every player that partisipates gets exatcly the amount they use, so its always fair. And the whole fs can partisipate or not, there call. Can jump in or out when ever they want, no commitment. - And by the time an aw is ready to upgrade, all chests are usually accounted for.

And with that method, we can see what each player is working on. So if there is a specific rune we want and someone is working on that aw, you can target your donations towards when that players name shows up. (Or make back room exchange deals with them directly).

So while your suggestions is a decent idea. Its simply not really needed with our system of KP Chain/swap.

I made that video to explain our kp chain methods to a player that didnt understand it. Figured it was better then a long block of text. I didnt want any misunderstandings so its a bit long winded. But better over explained then under i figure.

 

[ajqtrz]

@SogggyShorts The idea works with 5 chests, but the number of chests vary, as does the amount of KP needed.

5 works, but would 6 then be something like 40,30,20,10,5? And if that were the case anybody putting in 40 would be losing, wouldn't they? And seven chests would be even more difficult. Still, it's an idea that might be worth computing.

Another idea, I've thought about is the following, small Team AW Exchange. 5 players form a team. The members are ordered 1-5 and each has a similar size KP AW to upgrade, say 450KP (this can vary about 30 before it gets too complicated to keep track). In this 5 player team version you begin with 5 players, each of whom as an AW needing X amount of KP. The "X" can vary by about 20-30 but they all need about the same. You then start a thread: "AW Exchange 450, Red Team: Bob, Carol, Alice, Betty, John" The order of names represents the turns they take. Bob begins by putting 225 KP on one of his AW's. This is 1/2 of what he needs -- 450 Once he puts 225 on his target AW he notifies the other team members with "Pile On: Bob GA 450 Carol 113, Alice 57 Betty 30 John 15" This tells the other members what AW and how much each is to give. The amounts are about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, and 1/32 of the total needed and their total is 225. (The last 1/32 may be +or - a few as it's meant to "finish" the thing) Once the amounts have arrived, Bob announces, "done" and then it's Carol's turn. When she's at 1/2 she put in the thread, for instance, Pile On Carol BTG 460 Alice 115, Betty 58, John 34, Bob 18. And, again, when the thing is done, Carol announces it and everybody waits for Betty to get her AW to 1/2 and call for a "pile on." with the proper amounts as the other's have done. I would imagine the whole cycle would take about 2 - 3 weeks and when all 5 players had a turn any unevenness could be worked out. Of course if everybody stays within 20-30 of the prescribed level (they agree upon it at the beginning, here it's 450) the amount of variance is less than the KP won so it probably wouldn't be a problem and could be ignored.

Of course the AW's and amounts could be put in the original thread at the beginning and the players just announce: "Pile On" when they get to the prescribed 1/2, but I think that would mean they'd probably all arrive at about the same time and while that might work it would be difficult to put 450KP on the teams AW's all at once. By sequencing it you space it out 2-3 weeks and make it easier to keep up. At least that's my idea.

Like your idea this one can be "disrupted" by "foreigners," and has to be modified for more chests than 5. It would also take some mature players who could be counted on to fulfill their part, but it would lower the costs of the AW upgrades about 15% or more and be a nice small team building exercise.

AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

5 works, but would 6 then be something like 40,30,20,10,5? And if that were the case anybody putting in 40 would be losing, wouldn't they? And seven chests would be even more difficult. Still, it's an idea that might be worth computing.

Perhaps I didn't explain it very well, it works perfectly with any number of reward chests, FS members donate the same as the reward, super simple no-brainer system.
No matter how many chests there are each donator breaks even.*

Spoiler: Here's an example:

I want to upgrade my level 13 timewarp.
It needs a total of 680 KP to fill.
The chest rewards are: 45,35,25,15,10,5, and 5.
I announce in the Net Zero Swap thread "I'm doing my Timewarp next"

1. Steve sees my post first and donates 45 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 45 KP reward.
2. Dave sees my post next and donates 35 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 35 KP reward.
3. John sees my post next and donates 25 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 25 KP reward.
4. Lana sees my post next and donates 15 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 15 KP reward.
5. Jenn sees my post next and donates 10 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 10 KP reward.
6. Mike sees my post next and donates 5 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 5 KP reward.
7. Ryan sees my post next and donates 5 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 5 KP reward.

Ryan, seeing that all chest rewards have been taken, posts "Timewarp chests are full" in the swap thread.

I put the remaining 540 KP into my Timewarp whenever I want, saving 140 KP(20.5%) and everyone else breaks even.

* even if bumped out by a foreign investor in which case the wonder owner makes a larger profit some of which they simply pass on to the bumped player so that they do break even.
In practice, chests go to the FS 99.9% of the time because foreign randos don't invest in wonders where it's impossible to make a profit.
And if they do, great! More free KP for your FS.

 

[SoggyShorts]

But we have several KP Chain threads going.

I have never liked KP chains.

• I find them insuficient even when using 3 or 4 threads as I often have well over 100 KP to donate at one time from the tournament.
• Having more than 4 threads makes the message system constantly ping drowning out any other messages.
• Even when the chain plus my side deals are sufficient, the KP rewards are totally unfair and never distributed evenly.
• On top of that, it's extremely difficult to control who gets a rune with many going to players who don't need them at all (often me).
• Then there's the issue of lost reward chests: far too often I've been dumping 1-200 KP into chains and have had to lock myself out of a swap thread until a unique FS member can hop in and claim one of the available chests, and this leads to:
• Chest Snipers. With chains, a player outside of the FS can wait until a wonder is nearly full but still has a chest available and quickly finish the wonder for a profit (resulting in a loss for your FS) It's even possible for a top chest to be taken for a profit if there are enough unique FS members donating evenly.

As I see it the Net Zero Swap has many advantages over the KP chains.

 

[Dominionofgod]

I have never liked KP chains.

• I find them insuficient even when using 3 or 4 threads as I often have well over 100 KP to donate at one time from the tournament.
• Having more than 4 threads makes the message system constantly ping drowning out any other messages.
• Even when the chain plus my side deals are sufficient, the KP rewards are totally unfair and never distributed evenly.
• On top of that, it's extremely difficult to control who gets a rune with many going to players who don't need them at all (often me).
• Then there's the issue of lost reward chests: far too often I've been dumping 1-200 KP into chains and have had to lock myself out of a swap thread until a unique FS member can hop in and claim one of the available chests, and this leads to:
• Chest Snipers. With chains, a player outside of the FS can wait until a wonder is nearly full but still has a chest available and quickly finish the wonder for a profit (resulting in a loss for your FS) It's even possible for a top chest to be taken for a profit if there are enough unique FS members donating evenly.

As I see it the Net Zero Swap has many advantages over the KP chains.

kp chains arnt about 'controlling who gets a rune'. The more you donate, the better chances your rewards will be. The less you donate, the less rewards you get. As for the donations themselves, its perfectly even. What you donate, you get back. So its always numerically fair. As for having more kp then the chains let you use.. that will change in each fs depending on what numbers you chose. Right now, my fs has a 5, 10, 15 kp chain threads. But i know other fs that have 20, 50, even 100 kp chain threads. It will varry on the fs and how the fs plays. Were only a mid level fs so 100 kp chains wouldnt do us much good overall. For a tourney heavy fs, it may be a necessity.

I do agree however that having to many kp threads in the message window becomes cluttersome. That is one thing i dont like.

What is a net zero swap? Iv never heard that name before.

 

[SoggyShorts]

kp chains arnt about 'controlling who gets a rune'

I know, but it's a nice feature to have and is available in Net Zero Swaps but not KP chains. (see below)

As for the donations themselves, its perfectly even. What you donate, you get back. So its always numerically fair.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true because you must factor in the KP rewards from chests(otherwise we'd simply self donate)
E.G.
you donate 5KP 10x making you #2 contributor and you get the 35 KP reward chest.
I donate 5KP 11x making me the #1 contributor and I get the 45 KP reward chest.

Clearly I had a better return on investment than you.

What is a net zero swap? Iv never heard that name before.

Just a little something I cobbled together a few years back.

Spoiler: Here's an example:

I want to upgrade my level 13 timewarp.
It needs a total of 680 KP to fill.
The chest rewards are: 45,35,25,15,10,5, and 5.
I announce in the Net Zero Swap thread "I'm doing my Timewarp next"

1. Steve sees my post first and donates 45 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 45 KP reward.
2. Dave sees my post next and donates 35 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 35 KP reward.
3. John sees my post next and donates 25 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 25 KP reward.
4. Lana sees my post next and donates 15 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 15 KP reward.
5. Jenn sees my post next and donates 10 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 10 KP reward.
6. Mike sees my post next and donates 5 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 5 KP reward.
7. Ryan sees my post next and donates 5 KP and when the wonder fills will get a 5 KP reward.

Ryan, seeing that all chest rewards have been taken, posts "Timewarp chests are full" in the swap thread.

I put the remaining 540 KP into my Timewarp whenever I want, saving 140 KP(20.5%) and everyone else breaks even.

 

[BrinDarby]

If you see my name popup in your AW list ......
be prepared to pay alot for your shards, I certainly will.

 

[SoggyShorts]

If you see my name popup in your AW list ......
be prepared to pay alot for your shards, I certainly will.

Are you offering free KP? I have accounts on Winy, Khel, and beta. Please stop by anytime!

 

[BrinDarby]

I don't currently use KP for myself Soggy....
Just like my trading, I use it for profit in other ppls AWs...
but yes, I will pay for shards, I have quite the collection now.....

 

[SoggyShorts]

Just like my trading, I use it for profit in other ppls AWs

See @Dominionofgod? There are players who search for opportunities to take reward chests from other fellowships for a profit(a totally legit strategy IMO).
Defending against this is important, and with a Net Zero Swap KP profit is impossible which only leaves runes, and anyone who wants to buy a rune for ~40KP is welcome to it LoL

 

[Dominionofgod]

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true because you must factor in the KP rewards from chests(otherwise we'd simply self donate)
E.G.
you donate 5KP 10x making you #2 contributor and you get the 35 KP reward chest.
I donate 5KP 11x making me the #1 contributor and I get the 45 KP reward chest.

Clearly I had a better return on investment than you.

Thats because you count the REWARD as an entitlement and not a reward.
In a proper kp chain, however much kp you donate, is exactly the amount of kp that gets donated back to you. Even.
The chests are a REWARD to those that participate the most and donate the most.

Which brings it right back to the suggestion in the OP. To give a little somehting to those that donate a large amount but dont make the chest list.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Thats because you count the REWARD as an entitlement and not a reward.
In a proper kp chain, however much kp you donate, is exactly the amount of kp that gets donated back to you. Even.
The chests are a REWARD to those that participate the most and donate the most.

Which brings it right back to the suggestion in the OP. To give a little somehting to those that donate a large amount but dont make the chest list.

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance here?

"Rewards are only for those who participate the most"
but also
"Those who donate a large amount but don't make the chests should get something"

Well, which is it? Do you want rewards to be distributed more evenly or not?

In your own OP the pic example shows Jace and Necro each donated 100 KP but Jace got a 30 KP reward while necro only got a 20 KP reward.
With just 5 KP more donated you scored a 40 KP reward. 5% more donation than necro, but 100% more free KP? 5th place not getting a rune bothers you, but the wildly uneven KP distribution doesn't?