Slight adjustment to rune shard rewards in AW's (discussion)

[Dominionofgod]

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance here?

"Rewards are only for those who participate the most"
but also
"Those who donate a large amount but don't make the chests should get something"

Well, which is it? Do you want rewards to be distributed more evenly or not?

the first is what is currently is. The second is what im suggesting... its not that hard to follow.

In your own OP the pic example shows Jace and Necro each donated 100 KP but Jace got a 30 KP reward while necro only got a 20 KP reward.
With just 5 KP more donated you scored a 40 KP reward. 5% more donation than necro, but 100% more free KP? 5th place not getting a rune bothers you, but the wildly uneven KP distribution doesn't?

Your mixing two completely different areas of kp when your talking about a kp chain. In a kp chain you donate a certian amount of kp, and someone donates the exact same amount of kp to you. - That is perfectly even.

The chest rewards are a separate goal. And no, its not a perfect system. Thats the whole point of making a suggestion to try and improve it.

 

[SoggyShorts]

the first is what is currently is. The second is what im suggesting... its not that hard to follow.

Except that you are implying that a rune or 2 matters but 20+ kp does not which is a little bit ridiculous IMO.

The chest rewards are a separate goal.

I just don't see how you can think this. If the chest rewards aren't part of the swap then what is the point of a KP chain? Why not just level your own wonders? Are you trying to claim that the runes are the only part of the rewards that matter? Come on.

 

[Dominionofgod]

You jsut dont seem to get the point. In a kp chain, you get from fs players exactly what you give to fs players. The REWARD chests and jsut that.. a REWARD for most active participation. In the current system, most active is measured by the most kp donated. And in the case of a tie, the person who donated first gets the higher reward chest.

A 'Net Zero' swap, as you described it, takes away what should be a REWARD. - Now im not saying your way is wrong. If that what your fs likes, then be all means go ahead. Mearly that i dont agree with the mentality of taking away the idea of a reward.

But this thread isnt about arguing over different donation methods. Its about the idea of adding a base line shard reward to the reward chest system. Which i still stand by right now. When someone donates a large amount of overall kp but doesnt hit the chest mark, they should at least get a single shard. Now that base line would change with each aw and each level of the aw (unless they wanted to go by a more simple percentage.) But once you reach a certain point, a shard is the least you could get as a reward. And that reward is lower then the rest of the platinum and gold chests, but its still something.

Note: i personally do not need shards. This is not something im suggesting to benefit myself. I jsut finished two aw's with nothing but broken rune shards. - I suggest this because i think it is an over all fair and just idea.

 

[ajqtrz]

So you would propose at X level of giving you get a shard, no matter what the level of the chest won or not? The only question is: what is the value of X? Most of the donations I receive are between 10 and 30. I seldom see 50 or above. So is 20 enough? Or should it be tied to the size of the highest donation -- I give 30 and you have to give at least 25? Or maybe everybody who gives gets a shard? You could do this a lot of ways but in the end it would increase the number of shards and thus reduce their value as a reward in other places like crafting and tournaments.

I think it's one of those things that sounds okay but comes out of Murphy's pocket. You never know what's going to happen when you make the change, but it probably won't be good.

AJ

 

[Dominionofgod]

So you would propose at X level of giving you get a shard, no matter what the level of the chest won or not? The only question is: what is the value of X? Most of the donations I receive are between 10 and 30. I seldom see 50 or above. So is 20 enough? Or should it be tied to the size of the highest donation -- I give 30 and you have to give at least 25? Or maybe everybody who gives gets a shard? You could do this a lot of ways but in the end it would increase the number of shards and thus reduce their value as a reward in other places like crafting and tournaments.

I think it's one of those things that sounds okay but comes out of Murphy's pocket. You never know what's going to happen when you make the change, but it probably won't be good.

AJ

i agree with the first half of that at least. "What is the value of X" would be the big question to answer, and probably answered by inno themselves. I dont think there is a single 100% full proof answer that solves everything. (Which is the point of this suggestion. Taking a good system, but not perfect, and trying to add something that would help improve it.)

There would really only be three main options that i see.
1. A set value across the board. - I do not see that being a good idea. Kp values vary to much from aw to aw and from lvl to lvl.
2. Setting this value separately for each aw and at each level. - Time consuming to program, i would imagine. But would give the most control.
3. An across the board percentage of the total kp needed to upgrade. - I would guess easier to program. But potentially easier to take advantage of for aw at low level. Perhaps the percentage would only activate at a certain aw level. Similar to how there are different amount of chests at different aw levels.
But it would ultimately be up to inno to decide what they would feel the best option to implement this is.
My idea was thought of looking at the higher end of kp donating, such as the OP pic. So lower end/lvl might pan out differently.

As for increasing the amount of shards to a level that would really effect the game.. its a legitement concern, but one i dont think would happen in this scenario. Or at the very least, is not the goal of this suggestion. - Usually, when you donate high levels of kp, you are on the chest list to some degree. Its more uncommon to donate a large amount of kp and still not make the chest list. (such as the OP pic.) It requires a more specific set of circumstances to reach that. You need just enough players that is more then the chest amount available, but not so many players that all the lesser donations combined with the higher ones finish off the aw. And then you need the amount of kp donated by each of that specific number to be relatively balanced in order for everyone to donate a high level of kp.

So its a lot of things have to come together in order to reach this scenario. And keep in mind again, im talking about higher levels of donations. Which is where a base line number (of some sort) would come into play. That would hopefully keep ppl from being able to abuse it. - If you had a 600kp aw, and 24 fs members all donated 25 to be tied.. that 'higher baseline' would prevent them from taking advantage and getting a shard. And on the other side of it, if you have a 600kp aw and you donate 90kp (since thats the OP pic value, it seems a good number to illustrate).. then you have donated 90kp. At 600kp total aws, you usually have around 4 shard chests (1 platinum, 3 gold) so in order to have met that high goal AND be left off the chest list, you would have needed 4 ppl that donated more then you to get the chests. So youd have 4 ppl that donated lets say 100kp while you donated 90kp. Thats 490/600 right there. So at best, one more person could reach that high donating threshold. And that would have to be under perfectly ideal circumstances to achieve this. But lets say they did achieve it. Thats 2 ppl that achieved this benchmark line for high level donating but didnt get a chest. That means in total, it only added 2 shard to the server for that aw's entire level. (Or at least thats the goal).

So... as such i dont think such a small increase would adversely effect the value of shards.

Edit: this idea is not to adversly effect the game play or shard numbers on the server. It is a very specific circumstance adjustment meant to augment a system that could leave a player out every once in a rare while.

 

[SoggyShorts]

You jsut dont seem to get the point. In a kp chain, you get from fs players exactly what you give to fs players. The REWARD chests and jsut that.. a REWARD for most active participation.

meh. it smells to me like you're scamming your FS and hiding it behind the word REWARD when in fact it's just a PAYOUT and the way you do it benefits you more than others in a very clear way. I don't see how being just 5% more active entitles you to a 20% greater REWARD PAYOUT than necro. I would feel guilty as hell if I was making a profit off of my friends.

 

[Dominionofgod]

meh. it smells to me like you're scamming your FS and hiding it behind the word REWARD when in fact it's just a PAYOUT and the way you do it benefits you more than others in a very clear way. I don't see how being just 5% more active entitles you to a 20% greater REWARD PAYOUT than necro. I would feel guilty as hell if I was making a profit off of my friends.

KP chains are how many fs operate as its the most fair. It also requires no commitment form players. They can participate or not any time they want without any pressure. Its a fair system that my first fs showed me, and its the one my current fs all agreed to because of those benefits.

I don't see how being just 5% more active entitles you to a 20% greater REWARD PAYOUT than necro. I would feel guilty as hell if I was making a profit off of my friends.

no.. i dont feel guilty about necro at all. Of course that might just be because i play them both'

 

[SoggyShorts]

KP chains are how many fs operate as its the most fair.

I have already demonstrated that this is false. KP chains are common because they are simple.

It also requires no commitment form players. They can participate or not any time they want without any pressure.

Same with Net Zero, and Wonder Society systems.

Its a fair system that my first fs showed me

They lied to you or were bad at simple math.

no.. i dont feel guilty about necro at all. Of course that might just be because i play them both'

what about Jace1017, Ecnalav, winter fortress and everyone on page 2? are they also your alts, because you're ripping them off too.

 

[NightshadeCS]

I will jump in here just to say that a rune shard is *sometimes* more valuable than the KP payout, at least in perception. In my experience, it is not very often, but there are those times when you are stuck on a rune wheel for a wonder you REALLY want to build or upgrade, and so you want to go hunting for those runes.

However, the suggestion of changing the rewards in AW swaps seems to be filled with too many possible drawbacks, and there are ways to get what you want by other methods.
1. Make arrangements via message with your FS or with an individual;
2. Get lots of broken rune shards in the tournament in order to forge the needed runes;
3. Some other method that I can't think of right now because I haven't had enough coffee yet.

As a side note, the assertion that people don't often donate more than 20kp is flawed. It can really depend on your fellowship, what sort of program you have in place. I almost always see much higher donation amounts in all of my fellowships, at least for the first couple of chests.

 

[Mykan]

If by chance a aw gets to the end and chests are available, well mention it so some ppl can grab one. Weve never had an issue of outside ppl

KP chains are how many fs operate as its the most fair.

KP chain are anything but fair, but that is an understanding thing. Regardless of that fact I am utterly confused by this thread and your suggestion. I can't fathom how you can argue the KP distribution as fair but the rune distribution as unfair. You are defending the chest method in one way and attacking it for the second reward That just seems odd to me.

You also need to consider the balance issue of creating significantly more runes that your suggestion would create. For higher level wonders the top chests can get 4 runes and scaling down from there, it is only the last few chests who get none and those who got no chests.

 

[Ashrem]

I find them insuficient even when using 3 or 4 threads as I often have well over 100 KP to donate at one time from the tournament.

This can be alleviated by always having at least one, and preferably two or three, side deals going, where either of you can drop up to 500KP into a defined set of wonders as long as they aren't in a hurry to get it back.

I haven't put a single KP into my own wonders in more than a year. Admittedly, we also have more swap threads than you like, at 100/50/30/20/10/5

 

[SoggyShorts]

This can be alleviated by always having at least one, and preferably two or three, side deals going

Yup, I mentioned this. The problem with these side deals is that you aren't getting that 20% ROI

 

[Ashrem]

Yup, I mentioned this. The problem with these side deals is that you aren't getting that 20% ROI

Since every point is being returned, it costs me nothing, so the ROI is effectively infinite if I get even one chest. I haven't "donated" anything to get it.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Since every point is being returned, it costs me nothing, so the ROI is effectively infinite if I get even one chest.

That's not how it works, and you know it.
It's been over a year since we bandied words about, and I'm tempted, but it's late and I think I'd rather go sleep.
What I meant was that there are ways to spend your KP which increase your net KP by about 20%*, and having a side swap generally doesn't.

*Technically that's infinite too since you get 20% back on your 20% forever

 

[Ashrem]

That's not how it works, and you know it.
It's been over a year since we bandied words about, and I'm tempted, but it's late and I think I'd rather go sleep.
What I meant was that there are ways to spend your KP which increase your net KP by about 20%*, and having a side swap generally doesn't.

I'm sorry that was bothersome, I don't recall the exchange you are referencing, but if I did, might still have been confused by the use of ROI in that context. I might once have put sufficient value on KP to care, but if so that is long since gone. Gone to the extent of giving away KP at random and that I occasionally log in to a full KP bar and don't get around to doing anything about it until the next time I log on. Life's too short to care if I'm getting as much KP a I could be.