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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Spire of Eternity feedback

mucksterme

Well-Known Member
i like getting timers
i like getting diamonds
i like getting stuff for crafting
i like having some challenging fights

my real only complaint, which i think i've said before, is squad size

and although i am not usually one to worry about aesthetics
i agree with whoever said they should use battle backgrounds that reflect the inside of a building rather than the same fields the tourny uses
i'm no programmer,coder,scripter whatever
but it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to substitute brick for sand, bookshelves for shrubs, desks for rocks ...

oh one other thing
i don't even bother with the bribe thing
it just makes no sense
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
Let me react to this post
Okay I completed the Spire for the first time and here are some feedback:

Background:
I started level one of the Spire on Monday morning and ended it on Thursday evening, with 12 h to spare. In that same time, I have also completed my weekly tournament involvement (I did 180 rounds spread over 45 provinces this week).

1. Gameplay

Overall: Gameplay is straightforward but not easy. I've had to somewhat scale back my tournament involvement this week so as not to decimate my resources, from 198 rounds to 180 rounds - a roughly 10% decrease - which I find to be a reasonable compromise. The most difficult part was having enough troops for the "Fight" option. Detailed feedback on each option:
First of all, what are 198 rounds, or the 180 rounds? I seriously doubt you do 180 provinces, so my guess is you mean about 30 provinces for 6 rounds, which you describe as a cutback of about 10%.
That means you are doing so far over what the average player does it's not in the same ballpark, not even on the same planet. A lot of the newer players can't even do 10 provinces. From what I know with my testcities, I can see than someone in chapter 3 can relatively easily do 5 provinces for 5 rounds. In Chapter 4 that can maybe upped to 8 provinces 5 rounds, but not that much more unless one is completely devoted to fighting.

I do however agree with the amount of troops needed. The squadsizes in the Spire are ridiculous at almost 3x a regular squadsize for me in my main city. Though I had enough squads, I only noticed later on when I was starting to run low. Squadsizes need to be drastically cut to make the Spire playable.

1a) Convince option
- I used this option the most because the Fight option had too large squad sizes and I rarely had enough troops for it
- I like the puzzle aspect of the Convince option. It's a game of logic to me. It felt good when I guessed it correctly
- There is some risk involved. If I knew for certain I can't solve it after the 2nd attempt, I quit and restart.
- A slight reduction, say 10%, in goods required for the convince option would make it more comfortable. Particularly, the number of Orcs required should be substantially lowered, as Orcs are produced very slowly even at endgame.
I tried the convincing on several levels. At first it's not too bad, but at first the fights aren't either. Later on, where one has 6 items to choose from it becomes very, very hard to get it correct. And since one needs sentient goods as well, which aren't as common or easily gained, the amount is too high.
I like the concept, but when one has 5 or 6 options, one should get at least one more free attempt.
And I agree the cost should be cut, the 10% sounds about right. And definitely more for orcs since they are being produced so slowly.

1b) Fight option
- I like the idea of waves. It throws a challenge into how you pick your units - many times, you have to think it through, you can't get away with just choosing a single unit type and auto-fight it off.
- Manual fighting can be the key between a win/lose here, and lack of it is a big disadvantage to mobile players using the Fight option
- My biggest complaint is the Squad Size calculation. I don't mind the fights being more challenging and would have liked to choose this more, but as I rarely had enough units to fight with even though I trained units 24/7, I seldom was able to.
- Squad size should be reduced by at least 25% for this option to be more viable
I like the waves as well, it forces one to really think about the options for the units. However, to succeed, even with the correct troop-combination, I find one needs to manually fight. Autofight occurs too many losses, especially when some troops that are needed for the secondwave will be slaughtered in the first wave when doing an automatic battle. the AI isn't so great anyway, autofighting always has more casualties than manual battle, but the AI has no concept at all of keeping in thought having to fight a second or even third wave.
It means anyone playing on autobattle is at a serious disadvantage, meaning everyone on mobile.

Your assessment about the squadsizes is correct again, as it was mentioned earlier. Too many troops involved in each battle. In some of my testcities I did not even have enough to fill 2 full squads.

Also the amount of troops involved mean more losses, and thus more time needed to retrain. This is not so much a problem for advanced players with high levels of AWs that boost and/or generate troops, and increase trainingtime, but for low-level players it is a handicap that can't be overcome.

1c) Use of Diamonds
- I used diamonds occasionally, when I was very or almost certain I could guess the right combination in the Convince option if I bought another turn. I also earned some diamonds. I didn't keep track of how many diamonds I spent in total, minus those earned, but it wasn't a big amount. My estimate is somewhere around 150 diamonds, and I will try to keep a record next time
I refused to use diamonds period. If events such as this cannot be solved within a reasonable time/manner or with a reasonable amount of resources it should be promoted as a premium-feature only. In 1 test city I literally ran out of goods and thus just stopped.

2. Prizes
Overall, the prizes were decent for me. I got a lot of Time Instants, Crafting Materials and fortunately, 4/5 of the Moonstone Library Set. I did not like that the mystery chest could appear in a place you could not reach until you cleared more of the gauntlet. This should be changed.
I only partially agree. The spellfragments and the crafting spells are nice prices. But the time instants are ridiculous. One single 1 hour or 5 hour timeinstant is not even close to enough to recuperate the losses from a single battle.

2a) Time Instants
- These were handy and essential. I use a majority of them to speed up my troop training. Most of the troops went to the Tournament though, so you could say this prized helped me more in the tournament than anything else. I was tempted to use some of them to open the doors early, but troop training was more essential.
See my remark above. The timeinstants were hopelessly inadequate to counter the losses.
A possible solution would be to tie squadsizes AND the timeinstant rewards to for instance the trainingtime of players.

2b) Crafting Materials
- I like these quite a lot. I craft a lot and have been running low on spells to disenchant, even though I get at least 70 a week via tournaments. Also, CC takes very long to produce even with a L5 Magic Academy. When I ended the Spire I had 11.5k fragments and 23 CC (I produced and used some during the period, so I think it's more or less balanced out), so I won't have to worry about crafting materials for a while
Agreed, these were nice prizes and should be kept. Actually I found that, together with the idea of the multiple waves the best part of the Spire.

2c) Moonstone Library Set
- combined with 1 building I won by playing Level 1 last week, I now have the full set. I don't know how good it is yet, we shall see.
Sorry, but these buildings to me are not nearly enough to warrant so much of an effort in troops and goods. Though I really like the concept of having special awards for the Spire, these aren't that great, take way too much effort and aren't even guaranteed. One could end up with a really lousy reward for reaching the end of the Spire and that is just not right.

Overall, a good addition to the game, as it adds a whole new arena of play without detracting from the main progress of the game. The prizes are decent, since they can't be gotten regularly in other parts of the game (e.g. one goes to tournaments for KP, relics,runes and spells). The puzzles are a good challenge but can be improved in the area of resources needed.
The idea is good. Too bad that the Dev-team obviously ignored all the feedback from Beta, where most of these problems were already mentioned
I disagree with your assessment of most of the prizes. The fact there are some that can't be gotten anywhere else is very good. The spellfragments and crafting spells are a very nice addition. The time-reducing instants WOULD be nice, except that the amount of reductions is so far below what is needed to actually get them it's a very bad investment. The buildings are only so-so at best considering the effort that is needed to get them.
 

RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
Let me react to this post


First of all, what are 198 rounds, or the 180 rounds? I seriously doubt you do 180 provinces, so my guess is you mean about 30 provinces for 6 rounds, which you describe as a cutback of about 10%.
My usual target is
Prov 1 - 27: 6 rounds
Prov 28 - 45: 2 rounds

To cope with Spire demands, I dialed back to
Prov 1 - 9: 6 rounds
Prov 10 - 27: 5 rounds
Prov 28 - 45: 2 rounds

There is no need to compare absolute numbers here. I provided a proportional figure (reduction of 10% tourney involvement) to show that with a marginal reduction, I could manage both completing the Spire and decent tourney performance. Furthermore, if you don't do that much in tourney, you should be able to handle the demands of Spire more comfortably than those like me who go hard in the tourney.

As for diamond usage, to each his own. You can definitely finish the Spire with no diamonds at all, but using some makes it easier and I'm not averse to spending on entertainment, as I've mentioned numerous times elsewhere. If people can spend 10 bucks on a beer that literally becomes piss once you down it, I don't see a violation of principle in spending a few dollars on a game if it makes you happy. On top of that, the game does dole out free diamonds in the form of crafting prizes (mystical chest), wishing well rolls and even the Spire itself. If your principle has to do with not spending cash, you could always use those free diamonds. If you didn't ever get any free diamonds from anywhere, well, tough luck I guess. If the principle is simply "I will not ever use diamonds, even ones I won for free", I dunno what to say then.
 
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Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
@RandomNo.
I normally am not averse to spending on games, as I understand a Dev team needs to eat as well. When I started I have spent quite a tidy sum on elvenar.
However, Inno has been acting in such a way that I've taken a break from this game twice over, and have seen many a good player leave completely because of it. One reason is that they ask for feedback, but generally don't listen at all. That, and a some really nasty other things have made me decide I won't spend money on them in serious amounts any more. If Inno can't treat customers in a decent way, I'll be more than happy to spend my money on another company. It's as simple as that and they really have brought that on themselves. And normally, I budget a reasonable amount of money each month for games. It just so happens Inno isn't getting it anymore, at least not on a regular basis.
And please don't tell me about the free diamonds from the wells etc. I keep hearing that, and though I have gotten a few, I just score really, really badly on getting diamonds for free. Those I do get I save up for the one thing I deem most worthwhile: additional expansions. Definitely not on one-time events.

As for your tourney numbers, those are numbers for big tourney players. As I stated, many, if not most, players don't even come close to those numbers. Maybe 50 rounds in all and even that is doubtfull. Smaller players will do substantially less than that.
And though it is true the demands on the Spire are lower for them, percentagewise it still is a problem.
My main city for instance has a Needles at lvl 18, substantially decreasing training time, and has all the unit-generating AWs at at least lvl 11, getting a substantial number of extra troops that way.
My testcities are in chapters 3-5, none come even close to having such benefits, so even if the losses are the same percentagewise, the time to recuperate is much, much longer. My testcities in chapter for instance can comfortable do between 5-6 provinces in chapter for 4-5 rounds , the ones in chapter 4 can do 6-8 provinces for 5 rounds and recuperate those troops in about a week. More than that and the losses are unsustainable. Cutting back 10-15% would mean a substantially lower reward, which cannot be compensated by spending those troops on the spire to get to the end as the rewards for spending that amount of troops there are not even close to being as worthwhile. So I found that in those cities by doing one province less I can do a few encounters in the Spire. Which CAN be worth if if one gets the spellfragments and/or the crafting spells, but the time-reduction instants just suck. No other word for it.

(btw, I hardly use my testcities, so they pretty much stay at their same level, on several different servers, because they are just that: test-cities)
 

RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
I was a small city once too, but I've not experienced several of the limitations I keep hearing about small cities. In the beginning, I used Mykan's and GoK's city guides, and I started tourneying the moment I could. My FS was very supportive and helped me with goods early on. Once I could do 1,600+ consistently, and my FS made it clear they weren't going to go for 10 chests, I switched to a 10-chest FS and never looked back. I believe that practically speaking, the only real resource I put in that is different than others is that I spend more time logging on, so I can make shorter prods. Collecting often does make a significant difference in the output of a city. However I refuse to believe that a decent result all-round in the game is out of reach for most people. Even when I was a small city, I was outperforming ones several times my size when it came to tourney, simply because they wouldn't try or did not believe they could do it. I was and continue to be a firm believer of "the only wasted resource is the one that doesn't get used". I also didn't spend diamonds until I got to a 10-chest FS, where I was assured of a blueprint each week. That was where it was worth starting to spend some cash, and I didn't use it as a free pass on everything but on long term investments like expansions, BH, MA and magic res/ws. People freak out over using a few tens of thousands of goods in a tourney but I have been making and spending them for as long as I have been playing. I'm big now, yes, but I would not be had I not started when I was small.

Now I'm way past the point of a small city, so I can't speak fully for them when it comes to new stuff like these that never existed when I was small, but I do believe that with the cumulative experience of everyone who played the game before them, small cities are better positioned than ever to take advantage of all that is possible in the game. Can do, can't do, as you believe so it will be.
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
To answer this question, I'll have to ask you one in return - what are your going for and what are your current goals in game? Here are the major prizes of the Spire:

Moonstone Library Set
Timer instants
Spell fragments + Crafting Catalysts
There is actually one more - portal profits. Not particularly useful at the real end game, but before that it is quite neat. I've got several 50% PP and some smaller ones. This is quite a lot, and the Spire is now the only significant source of PPs that is permanent (MA crafting is rare and very expensive, events are hit an miss w.r.t. PPs).
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
I was a small city once too, but I've not experienced several of the limitations I keep hearing about small cities. In the beginning, I used Mykan's and GoK's city guides, and I started tourneying the moment I could. My FS was very supportive and helped me with goods early on. Once I could do 1,600+ consistently, and my FS made it clear they weren't going to go for 10 chests, I switched to a 10-chest FS and never looked back. I believe that practically speaking, the only real resource I put in that is different than others is that I spend more time logging on, so I can make shorter prods. Collecting often does make a significant difference in the output of a city. However I refuse to believe that a decent result all-round in the game is out of reach for most people. Even when I was a small city, I was outperforming ones several times my size when it came to tourney, simply because they wouldn't try or did not believe they could do it. I was and continue to be a firm believer of "the only wasted resource is the one that doesn't get used". I also didn't spend diamonds until I got to a 10-chest FS, where I was assured of a blueprint each week. That was where it was worth starting to spend some cash, and I didn't use it as a free pass on everything but on long term investments like expansions, BH, MA and magic res/ws. People freak out over using a few tens of thousands of goods in a tourney but I have been making and spending them for as long as I have been playing. I'm big now, yes, but I would not be had I not started when I was small.

Now I'm way past the point of a small city, so I can't speak fully for them when it comes to new stuff like these that never existed when I was small, but I do believe that with the cumulative experience of everyone who played the game before them, small cities are better positioned than ever to take advantage of all that is possible in the game. Can do, can't do, as you believe so it will be.
Exactly my point. My main city is large, and I'm doing well for myself there. However, TIME is my main limitation, so I tend to only run long productions and that is a very severe drawback. And that will be true for a lot of players. Most players I know will look in a few times a day to reset and do some other stuff, but will not be online all the time to run short productions. The difference between the yields is gargantuan and that certainly will make it a lot harder for players who are not on continuously, or who do not log in at least 4-5 times to run 3-hour productions to do well in tourneys and even more so in the Spire since the cost there is so much higher.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
There is actually one more - portal profits. Not particularly useful at the real end game, but before that it is quite neat. I've got several 50% PP and some smaller ones. This is quite a lot, and the Spire is now the only significant source of PPs that is permanent (MA crafting is rare and very expensive, events are hit an miss w.r.t. PPs).
Actually portal profits are pretty common throughout the game. And though they come in handy, they are almost useless to players who aren't in a guestrace chapter yet.
Another problem I have with them is they are so bloody common its getting too easy to get through the chapters. There is less and less use for struggling and working out how many special goods one needs, as they are mainly needed to make the portal goods, which now can be instantly generated in huge numbers. My main city for instance has close to 1600% in those instants, so enough to fill a portal 16x. That will greatly reduce the time needed and the need for the other special goods, taking at least a good part of the fun, struggle and puzzle to fit everything in away. Not to mention I don't need to fill a portal that often per chapter, so I am set for at least the coming 2 chapters already.

@RandomNo.
What I'm mainly going for in the Spire...hard to say. The crafting spells are nice, since my MA is pretty much making them 24/7 until the point where I have about 100 stored, which is the amount I like having ready. The spellfragments are nice, but I get enough other stuff to disenchant to make it a nice bonus, but hardly a real goal anymore.
The buildings are nice, but not gamechanging good for me, except perhaps the dwarven armory, which one has only a small random chance of winning.
So the spire does not offer a lot for me, and what it does offer comes at ridiculous amounts of units or resources.

The tourney on the other hand has set prizes, which I can pretty much pick and choose. The KPs are very welcome, as are the relics I need for crafting and the runes and shards I need for my AWs. The spells I don't really need as I have my personal minimum of 200 of each but are a steady supply of spellfragments, and the RR spells are welcome as well.
 

mucksterme

Well-Known Member
First of all, what are 198 rounds, or the 180 rounds? I seriously doubt you do 180 provinces, so my guess is you mean about 30 provinces for 6 rounds,
Maybe I misread your tone, but you phrase this like he is unable to clearly communicate and only your superior intelligence was able to puzzle out his meaning.

And yet, right in what you quoted it said,
(I did 180 rounds spread over 45 provinces this week).
Spread over 45 provinces
45 provinces

Seems pretty clear to me.
So if I did imagine a superior tone from you I apologize.
But if not, you may want to rethink your superiority.

I will give you that "rounds" usually is used to refer to a star round.
But since 4 x 45 is 180 I thought it was pretty obvious that by round he meant battle.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
Maybe I misread your tone, but you phrase this like he is unable to clearly communicate and only your superior intelligence was able to puzzle out his meaning.

And yet, right in what you quoted it said,


Spread over 45 provinces
45 provinces

Seems pretty clear to me.
So if I did imagine a superior tone from you I apologize.
But if not, you may want to rethink your superiority.

I will give you that "rounds" usually is used to refer to a star round.
But since 4 x 45 is 180 I thought it was pretty obvious that by round he meant battle.
YOU may think it was obvious, to me it obviously was not or I would not have asked. Please forgive me for not understanding right away and seeking for clarification when using a language that is not my native language.

Other than that, please stop making comments that take away from the discussion, unless it actually adds something to the content, especially when you take a look at the follow-up posts where he did answer to clarify (without a lecturing tone btw) and where I responded as well, meaning we had already moved beyond that. So apparently I misread. It happens and I'm not really sorry if that offended you.

As for my tone, that often is very direct. Again, I'm not really sorry if that offends people. Comes with having only limited time, which I choose not to spend on all kind of niceties. I can see how it offends people at times, but I can't worry about that too much. People are too sensitive as it is already, and if I have to start worrying about such things I'll never get anything done (or said).
Sorry if you feel it came over as being superior. I'm not, not feeling like it, not seeking to. I'm just bluntly direct.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
In case anyone has not noticed, the base of the Spire is not in the city background this weekend, the way it was still there last weekend in between the first and second week it was available. I wonder if it is turned off for this week because of the Fellowship Adventure, so we do not have a similar incident like with the last FA, where that week's tournament could not start on time because of the server load of everyone trying out the new FA format?
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
In case anyone has not noticed, the base of the Spire is not in the city background this weekend, the way it was still there last weekend in between the first and second week it was available. I wonder if it is turned off for this week because of the Fellowship Adventure, so we do not have a similar incident like with the last FA, where that week's tournament could not start on time because of the server load of everyone trying out the new FA format?
*OR*
Hopefully they've removed it for the time being while they overhaul it and reduce the costs of everything?

(yes, yes I know, stupid me to even think that... we all know what is hope is the first step towards and all.:()
 

Bricabrac

Well-Known Member
If you lost your entire roster of troops in one instance of combat, then you didn't have very many trained to begin with. The same could be said of any combat, whether tournament, province, or Spire related. Defeat happens in combat, and if you sent everything you had into that combat, then *poof* they're all gone.

I haven't had anything even remotely close to that happen in the Spire, by the way. But I made sure I was prepared beforehand.

For something that's optional, by the way. Not mandatory.
That's my feedback.
 

Tyger Lili

New Member
I agree with what was said that it IS optional. I was having a lot of trouble losing troops in all battles, not just Spire. However, I watched a video about battles and it gave me some insight. There is a method as to who you send into battle, which I have not yet mastered, but he didn't have the defeats that I sometimes get. But he did have a large contingency to begin with. You really need to know who gets to battle who in order to win. I do agree that there is a lot going on and it all requires choices, tournaments, advancement in research, Spire, and now a new adventure starting tomorrow. I needed to decide where my time and resources were going to be focused an be willing to let go of the rest. In the very beginning, I was staying awake, setting alarms to collect goods and men, and spent waaay too much on diamonds that I could not afford. As I advanced, I realized that I had to make priorities.
 

edsparrowpfo

Active Member
If you lost your entire roster of troops in one instance of combat, then you didn't have very many trained to begin with. .
I didn't lose them. A small city in our fellowship did. Who posted it early this morning, and didn't realize how many troops they were committing until they were all gone. Said FS member then proceeded to delete every building they could and vanish, but thank you for your telling me they were doing it wrong and don't have to participate. Very helpful.
 

Socrates28

Well-Known Member
@edsparrowpfo I am sorry for your FS loss and the ignorance of that player who made a mistake and could not mentally recover from it so they quit. That was their decision whether we think it was good, bad or indifferent. Given the information you provided they were ill equipped to do what they did, physically with troops and mentally in dealing with setbacks.
However, setbacks of one kind or another happened before the Spire was ever around and if the Spire were not there then some other aspect of the game would probably cause them to quit instead. The Spire was just the reason they gave.
Troops. IMO, are the currency we use to trade (i.e.: lose) the time and resources we invest in them for the rewards of tournaments, provinces, and now the Spire. If at any time we do not have them then we cannot participate in those events. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose (a lot)!
Given that reality, it is not the Spire which is at fault but the player. The player used it as an excuse and it is not the reason as you suggest.