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Discussion Spire of Eternity feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Fairy Dust, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. RandomNo.

    RandomNo. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2017
    I'd agree with you, except the OP simply said, in summary, "a new player lost at fighting and decided to quit".

    First off, that sounds like an emotional and impulsive action which makes it hard for me to sympathize with them. If it wasn't the Spire today, it's going to be something else tomorrow.

    Secondly and more importantly, that tells me absolutely nothing about what went wrong. Did said player use the wrong army match up? Did they not have sufficient army to begin with? Did they manual or auto fight? People have the same complaint (fighting is too hard!!!!!) for tournaments and clearing provinces. Without some detail, I really can't tell if a player had done their best and the game was really too difficult, or this might have just been a fool throwing resources into a black hole. That's what you'd call me if I told you I lost all my goods playing Spire by brute forcing my way through the convince option using random combinations of goods until I got all 5 correct, entirely randomly.

    I played through the Spire and then gave feedback detailing precisely how I played and the resulting experience. Simply coming out and shouting "it sucks!!! I quit!!!" doesn't make your feedback useful.

    Edit: I'm not calling the Spire perfect; it's far from it. You can read my feedback to see what I think needs to be changed. But even while waiting for change, there are ways to gain something from it, to varying degrees based on one's ability. So I absolutely don't buy the story that anyone should have to quit just because they failed at one instance of the Spire. Also, @Nonchalant Antipathy , I'd posit that your straw that broke the camel's back hypothesis doesn't apply to the player referred to by the topic starter of that other thread, because said camel is a new camel and I doubt has had many straws laid on their back thus far in the game
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
    toon, Socrates28, qaccy and 3 others like this.
  2. mucksterme

    mucksterme Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Oh I like that
    Even though Spire encounters are harder
    I would prefer that to "Do 6 encounters or 387 Tournament Encounters"
     
  3. Alistaire

    Alistaire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2018
    At least that's a 1:1 ratio and not a 5:1 like tourney encounters. But there's no option for tourney encounters in those?
     
  4. The Unbeliever

    The Unbeliever Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2017
    Sure it's 1:1 ratio, but what's the point when it's simply too bloody expensive to begin with?

    My 5th encounter of LEVEL 1 is already 923 vs. 1025 - for an O&G's level city!:eek::eek:o_O
    I can only produce roughly 2400 troops/day, so that one fight is asking for potentially 4615 troops - roughly 48hrs worth of production... For. One. Single. Battle.
    As for negotiating... that encounter is: 72k coins, 7200 supplies, 900 plank, 680 crystal.

    So hooray - options!
    Too bad they're pointless since trying it will just bankrupt my poor city. :(
     
    toon, Black watch and shimmerfly like this.
  5. RandomNo.

    RandomNo. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2017
    For an O&G chapter city, you're probably better off solving map encounters.
     
  6. Enevhar Aldarion

    Enevhar Aldarion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2016
    So far, players have gotten both kinds, but not one with all three as an option, so you could get complete x Spire encounters or x encounters or you could get complete x encounters or (x times 5) tournament encounters.
     
  7. Nonchalant Antipathy

    Nonchalant Antipathy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    Exactly! Features should be encouraging and fun, not a form of brutal punishment. I'm not opposed to a challenge, provided the fruits of my 'labor' offer adequate compensation, which I firmly believe is not the case with the Spire at present. Inno has never been good at communicating their aims to players within the game, in fact, they don't even seem to try, and I think much of the furor, rage-quitting, and whatnot could be lessened simply by the company clearly explaining, through the in-game announcements or whatever, that, perhaps, the Spire is meant to be quite difficult and caution should be exercised when participating. Drawing inexperienced players in with what basically amounts to flashing neon signs about this COOL NEW THING without conveying the risks involved isn't kosher in my book. How something is framed has a significant psychological impact.
     
    Hurtball, Black watch and Socrates28 like this.
  8. Socrates28

    Socrates28 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    I found that to be true for me as well.
    Very easy first 4 fights and jumped to roughly even for second 4 and up a lot for third 4.
    Also, no bonus chests.
     
  9. Socrates28

    Socrates28 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    While I know that what you posit is possible and perhaps even plausible, the very first encounters in the Spire would soon show the person that there are substancial costs involved in doing so.
    Additionally if the player reads the forums they would see the warning flags immediately and backoff quickly.
    Thirdly and hopefully, if they are in an FS someone would have already done one of the first two points and warned them to tread lightly, if at all.
    As to your point of wording having "a significant psychological impact" that is true. Words and phrasing do matter immensely. It is just that we are talking about a game here and not something else more important.
     
  10. Nonchalant Antipathy

    Nonchalant Antipathy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    My melodrama aside, it never slips my mind that it's a game, but if I am going to comment on something in a serious manner, I will take it seriously, whether important or not. I also don't see the point in holding anything to lower standards, even "just a game".
     
    Black watch and Socrates28 like this.
  11. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    It didn't kill the game, but it sure had a huge impact. And it may have been different for you, but in ALL my cities, on all 7 servers I was playing on, in all the fellowships I was in, there was a drastic decline of NH due to it. And with drastic I mean like 60% and more of a decline.
    That did not kill the game, but it sure as heck did not improve anything. Not only that, it was not only a decline in NH, many people noticed a steep decline in trades as well, due to the loss of goods. In 2 worlds I played in, it screwed up the trading bad enough in the FS that several players quit.

    Yes it did. Maybe not in the numbers you want to suggest, but it did. And right from the start on all forums feedback was given about the ridiculous amount of clicking that was needed, to a point where it actually became physically painful for people. That does not mean they all quit the game, but it sure drove them away from the FA events. Best prove you want is the remarkable increase in participation once they finally changed to the new system. That increase was so steep it created problems, remember? So the way it was set up definitely did drive people away. And not only the way it was set up, but also the fact that on ALL servers, right from beta to pretty much each server's own forum in the different countries people kept pointing out how much they hated the system and Inno hardly even responded to it. What ticked people off was that they ask for feedback, then ignore it, something that has been a complaint for very, very long.

    Well now, that's a new one to me, I never heard that before. 'people said' of course is rather vague. 10 people? 50 people? 100 people? In fact, I seem to remember a LOT of people asking for just something like this and it was generally very well received because by far the most people liked the event-buildings and were sorry to have to scrap them.

    Again, I get the feeling you are misquoting or exaggerating. But again, right from the beta feedback was given about the ridicuous amount of troops needed. No, it does not drive all people away from the game, but it sure drives people from participating again. I know a lot of players who made it clear that they're not going to try that again, except perhaps the encounters in round 1 up to the first gate.
    And I'm not exactly a small player myself. I'm not going to spend too much time on the Spire either. The cost outweighs the benefits by a huge margin.

    Hmmm...how should I put this?...it's hard to reply other than -beep- lets just say balderdash. You don't have to be a superstar, but a lot of players don't give a damn about completing it, they're here for fun. But there sure is a large group who does want to complete things. So what?

    This hardly qualifies a serious answer.
    edit: oops, hardly warrants a serious answer. Before someone starts complaining again about the fact my english isn't perfect
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  12. Socrates28

    Socrates28 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    My friend I enjoy your manner of writing, which you call melodrama, and I do not disagree with making serious comments even about this game we play. If we are not going to be serious about what we post (even if humorous) then we are just wasting our effort anyway. I do believe that your point about importance is the real point I was trying to make and did not get it across as you did in your wonderful style.
    If Inno shut down this game today I would take it seriously. However, in my life it is not important except to the extent that I (we) make it important. IMHO if we place too much "life importance" on this game, or any game, I think we are making a not so good choice with our emotional and intellectual resourses, which are very important to us all.
     
  13. Alistaire

    Alistaire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2018
    Whenever either players or developers do something crazy and defend it with "it's just a game" I'm reminded of what a wise man once said:
    [​IMG]
     
  14. RandomNo.

    RandomNo. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2017
    I think the bottom line is we're of very different mentalities then. You say I understate the seriousness of some of those changes. I say you overstate them. I guess I'm a "make it work" kind of guy. I don't enjoy endless FA clicking but I make it work. I don't enjoy having limited CL/BS effect but it doesn't kill my game. I don't like losing a big chunk of resources in the Spire but I make winning it happen. In a few hours it's going to happen for the second time for me, and this time I'm going to be finishing it faster and with less resources. I'll welcome any change that makes it easier but in the meantime I'm gonna go on crushing it. I already know the reason I'll stop playing this game one day - something else in my life requires more of my energies and attention. It won't be because some new feature is too difficult.

    Edit: the RR issue was the complaint that the ability to obtain RR was stacked against the small player since the bulk of it was in the form of convertible blueprints, which only 10-chest FSs can get.

    Also, if you're gonna let not completing an event get you down, that's your business. I take all that I can get; even if I don't complete an event, I can get plenty of useful stuff from it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    MinMax Gamer and Socrates28 like this.
  15. sputnik9009

    sputnik9009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2018
    it is just a game; find new one... is how i feel about the Spire!
    anyone else?
     
  16. Nonchalant Antipathy

    Nonchalant Antipathy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    AMEN. Elvenar is an enjoyable activity for me and I spend a lot of time on it, many would say too much, which increases its importance on a personal level simply due to the time invested, and while I would (will) feel a bit lost if (when) the game shutters up, I'll move on to another right quick with little regret. I believe we should all take care, mind our conduct, put effort into everything that we do, but agree that, perhaps, virtual interactive entertainment isn't exactly the 'wisest', or whichever adjective you prefer, target to focus mental resources on with a full throttle to excess. That's subjective, though, and the specific amounts worth dedicating can only be determined by each individual. My judgment for myself is simple; if I'm having fun, it's worthwhile.
    I loathe the "it's just a game" 'defense'! Often see it thrown around when somebody doesn't like the standpoint of an opponent and so they want to devalue the entire argument, paint the other person as suddenly silly and stupid for even attempting to discuss the topic both have been actively participating in.
     
  17. Enevhar Aldarion

    Enevhar Aldarion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2016
    @Dhurrin and @RandomNo. In your discussion of what did or did not make people quit the game, you left out a major one that really did get a fairly large amount of players to quit: the nerfing of all the old event buildings. You can take a note of that date and go looking on elvenstats and find a whole bunch of players who went inactive a couple of weeks after the nerf.
     
  18. Lyleth

    Lyleth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2015
    @Enevhar Aldarion My reason for quitting predates event buildings and AWs. Granted I returned after 3 years, but sadly my reason for quitting still holds true.
    My main reason (and if you want the farewell post, I'll dig it up for you), was that with the advent of 1.0 and even prior to that, the developers have a very narrow vision on how Elvenar is played. The 1.0 implementation was a literal nightmare on live servers and the narrow vision still holds true even with the advent of events, tourneys etc.
    It is highlighted in the research tree and the fact that the vision IG has and the way that I wish to play do not necessarily coincide may be the reason I leave the game again in time.

    (Oh yes, and the fact that Browser battle still such and NH has never been improved!)


    So beyond the inherent problem of battles.... browser is just terrible because it is slow and clunky and works worse than 30 year old games, app autobattle is inherently terrible as you cannot preview terrain features they just do not seem to be calibrated correctly.

    But my main complaint about spire is the bribery/catering feature. I am dismayed that it is utterly random what each person wants and there is no indication whether a specific type of individual wants when you are trying to use this feature. I would find spire much more enjoyable if the goods bribery worked that if I clicked on one of the individuals they would say "Oh, well, I would really like some bread or Oh, I really need an admirable altar for my temple' which would indicate the type and relative quantity of the good that they want. I should not have to go through it blindly 3 times and still fail.
     
  19. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    If your losses are larger than your gains, you don't 'win'. You may complete the Spire, but I do not see that as winning.
    For me, the idea is that I will invest time/resources/troops in something and get a reward for that which outweighs the cost. If it was fun, breaking even would be acceptable, or even taking a loss. But there's no fun-factor in the Spire, so that is out. Rewards that are good would be a good reason to do something that's not particularly enjoyable, but again In the Spire it is not the case. It doesn't even come close. The rewards for each encounter are most of the time not even close to being worth the cost.

    So you just want to finish something. Fine, that can be a goal. Just like I like being at the end of the techtree. Doesn't make me stop if I'm not, I'll work to get there again. But not at a ridiculous cost.

    Some may have stated that complaint, but that I consider a crappy argument. One can get them from the tourneys and even at lower levels, if one really wants to it is easy enough to find (or found) a FS that gets 10 chests every week or every other week or every 3 weeks and thus get the blueprints.

    And I will get what I can, from events when I have time. But I'm getting event-weary. Too many events, pretty much the same each time though the rewards change. To a point where -at least in my views- the devs have shot themselves in the foot by creating so many event buildings that are so much better than the regular cultural buildings, better even than the premium cultural buildings in many cases, that I cannot imagine how that is not hurting them.
    I used to buy some of the premium cultural buildings, now I don't anymore, it's stupid since one can get better ones for free.
    Also, it means that Devs spend time developing the ideas of new premiumbuildings for each new chapter, make the graphics for them, then they hardly get used, since they're being outperformed right from the start by those free event buildings. A waste of their time in working on something that is almost completely ignored by the vast majority of the players.

    btw, I find it an utterly despicable act by Inno to almost force players to do more in the Spire by suddenly decreasing the amount of spellfragments one gets for disenchanting event buildings. And not a bit, but by 50% or so.
    There was negative feedback on the Spire, but the spellfragments were well received as a reward, so of course they decrease the other (major) source for those spellfragments so people will be more likely go to the Spire. Or something like that must have been their line of reasoning. Shows how badly they understand their playerbase, or how little they care about them.

    @Enevhar Aldarion
    I did not 'leave it out' as the discussion -at least for me- was not about what caused people to leave the game. There are many reasons for that.
    For me it was more to counter the statements made by @RandomNo. which more or less seemed to to state that nothing happened with each of the nerfs. While at least for me at each of those I've seen players leave, and many of those changes had major NEGATIVE impacts on the game. And when I compare what happened to me on servers in 5 different countries and they all show the same trends, and the forums in each of those countries show the same reactions, I can be reasonably sure I can go with such results.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    Nonchalant Antipathy likes this.
  20. Deborah M

    Deborah M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2018
    I did not like the Spire, believed it was not worth it and have been completely ignoring it. Now if the moving building to inventory spell just announced in Beta can only be gotten in the Spire I guess I will have to play it some. Great carrot from Inno to get more people to not ignore the darn Spire!
     

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