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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Spire of Eternity feedback

RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
If your losses are larger than your gains, you don't 'win'. You may complete the Spire, but I do not see that as winning.
For me, the idea is that I will invest time/resources/troops in something and get a reward for that which outweighs the cost. If it was fun, breaking even would be acceptable, or even taking a loss. But there's no fun-factor in the Spire, so that is out. Rewards that are good would be a good reason to do something that's not particularly enjoyable, but again In the Spire it is not the case. It doesn't even come close. The rewards for each encounter are most of the time not even close to being worth the cost.


So you just want to finish something. Fine, that can be a goal. Just like I like being at the end of the techtree. Doesn't make me stop if I'm not, I'll work to get there again. But not at a ridiculous cost.


Some may have stated that complaint, but that I consider a crappy argument. One can get them from the tourneys and even at lower levels, if one really wants to it is easy enough to find (or found) a FS that gets 10 chests every week or every other week or every 3 weeks and thus get the blueprints.

And I will get what I can, from events when I have time. But I'm getting event-weary. Too many events, pretty much the same each time though the rewards change. To a point where -at least in my views- the devs have shot themselves in the foot by creating so many event buildings that are so much better than the regular cultural buildings, better even than the premium cultural buildings in many cases, that I cannot imagine how that is not hurting them.
I used to buy some of the premium cultural buildings, now I don't anymore, it's stupid since one can get better ones for free.
Also, it means that Devs spend time developing the ideas of new premiumbuildings for each new chapter, make the graphics for them, then they hardly get used, since they're being outperformed right from the start by those free event buildings. A waste of their time in working on something that is almost completely ignored by the vast majority of the players.

btw, I find it an utterly despicable act by Inno to almost force players to do more in the Spire by suddenly decreasing the amount of spellfragments one gets for disenchanting event buildings. And not a bit, but by 50% or so.
There was negative feedback on the Spire, but the spellfragments were well received as a reward, so of course they decrease the other (major) source for those spellfragments so people will be more likely go to the Spire. Or something like that must have been their line of reasoning. Shows how badly they understand their playerbase, or how little they care about them.

@Enevhar Aldarion
I did not 'leave it out' as the discussion -at least for me- was not about what caused people to leave the game. There are many reasons for that.
For me it was more to counter the statements made by @RandomNo. which more or less seemed to to state that nothing happened with each of the nerfs. While at least for me at each of those I've seen players leave, and many of those changes had major NEGATIVE impacts on the game. And when I compare what happened to me on servers in 5 different countries and they all show the same trends, and the forums in each of those countries show the same reactions, I can be reasonably sure I can go with such results.
I never consider any expense a waste if it gets me something I want in return. In reality, and when applied to money, this might be foolish. But in this game, time spent is time lost. You can save your millions of goods "for when you may need it", or "for a better deal", that's your choice. I choose to spend what I have already invested in irretrievable time, on something that I can use now. CCs, spell fragments, time instants - these all fit the bill. That's also a reason I go hard in the tourney. If I stuck with 1,600 points every week, I'd have tens of millions of goods in each tier by now. As it is, I can balance my inflow/outflow currently by doing my 180 rounds and completing the Spire, all of which gives me resources to further improve my city, which basically at this point simply needs KP for AWs.

Anyway, that's my last word on this issue. You play your game, I play mine, it's all good :)
 

sputnik9009

Well-Known Member
If your losses are larger than your gains, you don't 'win'. You may complete the Spire, but I do not see that as winning.
For me, the idea is that I will invest time/resources/troops in something and get a reward for that which outweighs the cost. If it was fun, breaking even would be acceptable, or even taking a loss. But there's no fun-factor in the Spire, so that is out. Rewards that are good would be a good reason to do something that's not particularly enjoyable, but again In the Spire it is not the case. It doesn't even come close. The rewards for each encounter are most of the time not even close to being worth the cost.
i fully agree with you... winning is fulfilling and fun... if it is not fun, why play?
what is the point?
 

sputnik9009

Well-Known Member
I never consider any expense a waste if it gets me something I want in return. In reality, and when applied to money, this might be foolish. But in this game, time spent is time lost. You can save your millions of goods "for when you may need it", or "for a better deal", that's your choice. I choose to spend what I have already invested in irretrievable time, on something that I can use now. CCs, spell fragments, time instants - these all fit the bill. That's also a reason I go hard in the tourney. If I stuck with 1,600 points every week, I'd have tens of millions of goods in each tier by now. As it is, I can balance my inflow/outflow currently by doing my 180 rounds and completing the Spire, all of which gives me resources to further improve my city, which basically at this point simply needs KP for AWs.

Anyway, that's my last word on this issue. You play your game, I play mine, it's all good :)
i can further my city without doing the Spire, infact my city will be better of if i do not do the Spire of losses
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I did not like the Spire, believed it was not worth it and have been completely ignoring it. Now if the moving building to inventory spell just announced in Beta can only be gotten in the Spire I guess I will have to play it some. Great carrot from Inno to get more people to not ignore the darn Spire!
Don't reward them for being massive trolls! >.<

Keep ignoring the stupid spire - otherwise all we do is vindicate their awful abuse of the player base, which will result in the game continuing to drown under a giant pile of flaming gak. :(
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Don't reward them for being massive trolls! >.<

Keep ignoring the stupid spire - otherwise all we do is vindicate their awful abuse of the player base, which will result in the game continuing to drown under a giant pile of flaming gak. :(
The first floor is entirely manageable by most everyone and I will be doing that much every week. But that is all, since the problems kick in on the second and third floors, where the squad size and negotiation amounts have that ridiculous jump in numbers. So if we could get everyone to not go beyond the first boss, maybe those floors would be fixed.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The first floor is entirely manageable by most everyone and I will be doing that much every week. But that is all, since the problems kick in on the second and third floors, where the squad size and negotiation amounts have that ridiculous jump in numbers. So if we could get everyone to not go beyond the first boss, maybe those floors would be fixed.
The first floor is still beyond stupidly hard for the majority of players.
End game players, with high leveled military AW's, AND, additional space for more armories, AND, *all* troop research unlocked, AND, a Lv9-10 Red Chocobo, AND, temp units boosters... (see where this is going?!;))

Many of us though who are still in Chapters 4-11/12 or so though don't have near the production (military or general resources) to manage much beyond maybe the initial 7-8 encounters or so, since our resources are stretched far too thin.
(ie: playing Spire might mean grinding city research to a halt, or maybe forging the weekly tournament which means fewer relics, etc, etc...)

It's beyond stupid that the feature is basically unplayable by Ch3-4 players to boot. (beyond what, 2 to 4 encounters?!lol)
If Inno doesn't want them playing it, then maybe, I don't know, DON'T LET THEM UNLOCK IT SO DAMN EARLY?!:eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:

If it's just an additional feature for late game players, then Inno should just admit to that, and tech lock it until they really want us to throw all our resources at it.
As it is, most of us are just frustrated to hell and back, seeing massive losses for little to no gain in return.

At the very least, they should be ratcheting down Lv1 so that it's cheap & doable by Ch3 players...
All that's required to balance it is to just limit the prizes to reflect the 'easy' difficulty to things like coin/supply instants, 30min - 2hr time boosters, 250 - 500 spell frags, some CC's and a few 10 - 25 dias chances. (ie: remove ALL the portal profits, set buildings, etc... at least that way everyone can get something out of the spire, while the better rewards would be locked away for the late/end game players, since that's the overall impression that the Spire of Stupidity is currently giving.:p)
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
The first floor is still beyond stupidly hard for the majority of players.
End game players, with high leveled military AW's, AND, additional space for more armories, AND, *all* troop research unlocked, AND, a Lv9-10 Red Chocobo, AND, temp units boosters... (see where this is going?!;))

Many of us though who are still in Chapters 4-11/12 or so though don't have near the production (military or general resources) to manage much beyond maybe the initial 7-8 encounters or so, since our resources are stretched far too thin.
(ie: playing Spire might mean grinding city research to a halt, or maybe forging the weekly tournament which means fewer relics, etc, etc...)

It's beyond stupid that the feature is basically unplayable by Ch3-4 players to boot. (beyond what, 2 to 4 encounters?!lol)
If Inno doesn't want them playing it, then maybe, I don't know, DON'T LET THEM UNLOCK IT SO DAMN EARLY?!:eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:

If it's just an additional feature for late game players, then Inno should just admit to that, and tech lock it until they really want us to throw all our resources at it.
As it is, most of us are just frustrated to hell and back, seeing massive losses for little to no gain in return.

At the very least, they should be ratcheting down Lv1 so that it's cheap & doable by Ch3 players...
All that's required to balance it is to just limit the prizes to reflect the 'easy' difficulty to things like coin/supply instants, 30min - 2hr time boosters, 250 - 500 spell frags, some CC's and a few 10 - 25 dias chances. (ie: remove ALL the portal profits, set buildings, etc... at least that way everyone can get something out of the spire, while the better rewards would be locked away for the late/end game players, since that's the overall impression that the Spire of Stupidity is currently giving.:p)
I agree. Actually, I feel that if they bring down the difficulty/squadsize/negotioncosts, they only need t bring down the prizes in the first round on all floors down a little bit. That would make the Spire playable up to about the end of round 1 for everyone. Round 2 should be considerably harder, but with better rewards. And round 3 again.
But seriously, a singe 2-hour timebooster for an encounter where one loses 8 hours of troop production is not a 'reward'.
Portal boosting spells should be added only in the second time through. That means players in chapters 3, 4 won't be stuck with them for an effort that has a sizeable cost.

And so what if that makes the first time through easier for end-game players? Same goes for the first 10 rounds of a tourney. But you have to get through it to get to the other rewards. So make the first round more accessable to low-level players, then the next times over more substantial rewards for more advanced players. Heck, add one more round for those who want to go insane for all I care.
 

Kataphractos

Active Member
All I can add is that I've warned my fellowship to avoid the Spire for the foreseeable future. We're all pre-Dwarves players anyway (I'll be getting to Dwarves over the weekend). This feature was never really intended for us, any more than FoE guild expeditions were intended for Iron Age and Early Medieval players. Oh, you could try to help out your guild at those levels...but you'd always lose more than you gained, which was especially risky because FoE is a game where other players can attack you and loot your city.

Now, if you're in a position where you don't have sufficient resources to defend yourself from looters, and so the looters keep stealing whatever resources you do manage to accumulate, the easiest way out of that death-spiral is using premium currency -- called "diamonds" just like in Elvenar. So it makes sense that InnoGames would allow new FoE players to try their luck with expeditions, and lose most of the time, precisely because they're new players and they'll lose most of the time. But looting doesn't happen in Elvenar; there is no death-spiral; the Spire does not start a chain-reaction that inevitably leads to new players buying diamonds. From a purely profit-and-loss standpoint, there is no reason for the Spire...which is why I assume the real motivation was Corporate Geniuses (tm).
 

StarryElf

Guest
So I wasted a butt ton of resources on the frog in map 2 and even had to trash an extra 25 diamonds on a 5th guess because the stupid spend diamond screen blocks the negotiation so I can't even tell if I can correctly guess next try.

Also thanks for the consistent yellow mellows on the harder encounters and depleting my resources instantaneously...

For those who don't get what I mean, yellows on all ghosts is the quickest way to get screwed out of resources and potentially diamonds.
 

StarryElf

Guest
And on the final encounter, once again, the popup screen blocks my moves and I am resorted to wasting an additional turn..again...just to win the 50 diamonds I got screwed out of...

That does it...I'm leaving this game for good going to sell my inventory and go back to playing FoE. It was a nice trip. Best of luck to you all.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
All I can add is that I've warned my fellowship to avoid the Spire for the foreseeable future. We're all pre-Dwarves players anyway (I'll be getting to Dwarves over the weekend). This feature was never really intended for us, any more than FoE guild expeditions were intended for Iron Age and Early Medieval players. Oh, you could try to help out your guild at those levels...but you'd always lose more than you gained, which was especially risky because FoE is a game where other players can attack you and loot your city.

Now, if you're in a position where you don't have sufficient resources to defend yourself from looters, and so the looters keep stealing whatever resources you do manage to accumulate, the easiest way out of that death-spiral is using premium currency -- called "diamonds" just like in Elvenar. So it makes sense that InnoGames would allow new FoE players to try their luck with expeditions, and lose most of the time, precisely because they're new players and they'll lose most of the time. But looting doesn't happen in Elvenar; there is no death-spiral; the Spire does not start a chain-reaction that inevitably leads to new players buying diamonds. From a purely profit-and-loss standpoint, there is no reason for the Spire...which is why I assume the real motivation was Corporate Geniuses (tm).
This is just completely false, 'fake news'...
FoE's Guild Expeditions are well balanced - a brand new Iron Age player is *easily* capable of completing Lv1, even with a terrible economy & 0 combat boosters.
- ALL the fights on Lv1 are against previous era units. (ie: akin to the enemy being ALL 1* vs. you having ALL 2* troops)
- The only goods used are again, previous era. (ie: akin to Lv1 Spire asking for only T1 goods)
- The 4th turn mechanic exists via the Friend's Tavern boost. It makes even the final encounter trivial to negotiate.
- Plundering is non issue as there are so many ways to negate it now it's not even funny...

Now, sure, Lv2 is more difficult, and a player who's just unlocked it will typically require a decent city economy and at least a Zeus AW to give an atk + def boost to their units.
By EMA, the Cathedral of Achen is readily available, giving yet another combat boosting AW. (called Great Buildings in that other game!:p) Building both of those & leveling them gives a good enough boost to make Lv1-Lv2 doable mostly by fighting, with negotiation being used for the big 'boss' level towers.

Vs. our monkey poo Elvenar version?
Well, a Ch4 player, (akin to an Early Middle Ages FoE player), has only the Sanctuary (mild hp booster) + Needles (slightly faster troop recruitment + middling light ranged booster) as their ONLY combat boosters! >.<
So basically, players who are pre-start of WE's are utterly screwed on the military front, since the only other military booster until you begin unlocking the O&G and later wonders, is the Dwarven Bulwark. (free light melee - the weakest friggin unit possible + the huge training size boost).

See the problem yet?
In FoE's version, a player may have to start small initially, (ie: Lv1 only being readily doable), but they very quickly within a single chapter advancement gain access to enough unit boosters to allow them to fight through at least the bulk of the first 2 levels!
They also have ready access to 2 goods producing great buildings as well - Tower of Bable + Lighthouse of Alexandria, thus supplementing helping to boost the city's overall production.
Oh, and of course, the 4TH TURN MECHANIC! which at least makes the negotiation game readily doable, provided you know how it works. (and yes, even with the 4th turn, it still costs a decent amount of goods every week to negotiate all 3 levels)
 

Kataphractos

Active Member
compares me to Donald Trump, I guess?
I'm glad you feel so passionate about something, that you'll write a 400-word manifesto to defend it against what you inexplicably perceive as some kind of criticism. Instead of a person who is agreeing with you that Elvenar's clone is inferior to FoE's original.

But all that elaborate meta-game you just plonked down? Is meta which new players will not know. Which I believe is exactly what InnoGames was counting on. Information Asymmetry 101. You, yourself, can't help but throw in caveats like "provided you know how it works". Well, yes, that was my point.

And for future reference: the next time you proclaim FoE expeditions are the best thing since sliced bread, don't immediately follow that up by saying "well ACKTUALLY it's totally COOL to get farmed by trolls every day for several months...at least it is now...8 years after the game came out, and 3 years after expeditions were introduced". This does not prove what you think it proves. [Insert mandatory Princess Bride reference here]
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
@Kataphractos: Yes, you did spout a bunch of false information, including supposed "facts" such as;
This feature was never really intended for us, any more than FoE guild expeditions were intended for Iron Age and Early Medieval players.
- Completely false.
Iron Age can still beat the stuffing out of Lv.1;
ALL enemies are weaker than your basic IA troops.
ALL goods demanded for negotiation are the cheaper & easier to produce Bronze Age goods. (ie: less pop required per factory)
If you haven't yet built up at least the Zeus GB, then that's on you, since it is very easy to acquire and very cheap to level up.

EMA is even easier to beat down Lv.1

The only players who can't complete Lv1 on a weekly basis are speed rushers who just blindly race through the game and take little to no time to build up an efficient city with a half-way decent economy.
Hell, with the intro of the extra turn boost via the friend's tavern, I could do Lv4 once or twice a month even while being in EMA's!

Oh, you could try to help out your guild at those levels...but you'd always lose more than you gained, which was especially risky because FoE is a game where other players can attack you and loot your city.
- Completely false
a) Even if you can only complete Lv1, that is still actively helping your guild by providing 16 additional completed encounters to the guild's overall combined totals.
The only way to *NOT* actively help out your guild in GE's is to be the lazy git who does 0 encounters while still costing your guild your level unlocking costs.:rolleyes:

b) If you're actively losing more than you're gaining, then it's a sign your city's economy is weak and needs improving.
IA may not be ready to do Lv3 or Lv4 for sure. But you have 6 days to complete 16 encounters. Is your city so weak that it can't readily produce at least 20 of 2 of your possible 4 different boosted goods per day and some extra coins + supplies?
(ie: if you can't run 1 previous age + 1 current age boosted goods factory in your city, GE ain't the problem! <.< )
Even with 'bad' luck, you'll still 'win' on just Lv1 per week; 4x unattached units, a few 1000 coins/supplies, a few bp's/basic building/goods/kp's and maybe a few dias.

c) PvP *must* be unlocked via the tech tree. (pay to unlock the Military Tactics research)
Until YOU actively unlock that tech, you cannot ever be attacked by anyone!
Again, if you unlock that tech before you're ready for it, that's on the player.


Now, if you're in a position where you don't have sufficient resources to defend yourself from looters, and so the looters keep stealing whatever resources you do manage to accumulate, the easiest way out of that death-spiral is using premium currency -- called "diamonds" just like in Elvenar. So it makes sense that InnoGames would allow new FoE players to try their luck with expeditions, and lose most of the time, precisely because they're new players and they'll lose most of the time.).
- *sigh* so full of false 'facts'...
a) If you don't have sufficient resources to protect from looters, why are even unlocking PvP access then?!
Until you unlock Military Tactics, there is no PvP and no looting!

b) I hear that if you just collect your resources on time, you can stop looters for the cost of 0 diamonds.

c) Being 'new' has nothing to do with "losing most of the time."
We learn from our defeats.
For example, I learned that initially, to try and cope with completing just Lv1 of GE, I needed to level up my Zeus beyond just Lv1 & add more goods production. (went from 2 to 4 factories & only built my boosted goods vs. trying to build some of everything)
I learned that to avoid being plundered, (and btw, this was in days before the re-balancing of neighbourhoods, so I was in IA with friggin' Modern -> Future era players savaging me!:eek:), I needed to time my productions to finish when I could be at home to collect them vs. leaving them sitting around for half the day - suddenly I had lots of goods and looters could get... a couple dozen unmotivated coins/supplies - big whoopti-do!

The only thing there that's 'true' is that yes, the easiest & also quickest way out of 'that death spiral' is to spend dias...
Or else, just be patient, and stop racing ahead.:rolleyes:


Elvenar's the same way, just without the tiny disadvantage of possible plundering.
A player who races as fast as possible will always be weak and incapable of managing much, vs. a player who takes their time and accumulates reserves of both resources and troops.

Only diff between GE vs. Spire is that Elvenar puts too many hurdles in the way to viably play even just Lv1 until you're nearly through the whole tech tree!
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
I can too. But with Spire I get even more things. I get absolutely no benefit from goods and troops sitting unused in inventory.
Not always true. I build up troops in general, but each province needs its own type to really carry the battle. So saying there is no use for light ranged troops in your inventory because right now we have a Dust tourney is complete nonsense, you'll need them later on.
Also, having extra troops in your inventory means you can use them when needed. Like when one needs that one extra province-expansion. or when one wants to do an extra effort on the tourney. Or if one is crazy enough, to do an extra effort on the Spire.

So having troops, even in sizable numbers, sitting idle now can be an advantage at another point.
Same with goods btw, I like having a sizable amount of goods in store. Even if just to be able to trade with my FS members when they need something. Or to use them to buy KPs in large numbers when needed.

Purely looking at it from a "me, me, me, now, now, now" point of view you are correct of course. Looking at it from a bit other perspective it may change.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Not always true. I build up troops in general, but each province needs its own type to really carry the battle. So saying there is no use for light ranged troops in your inventory because right now we have a Dust tourney is complete nonsense, you'll need them later on.
Also, having extra troops in your inventory means you can use them when needed. Like when one needs that one extra province-expansion. or when one wants to do an extra effort on the tourney. Or if one is crazy enough, to do an extra effort on the Spire.

So having troops, even in sizable numbers, sitting idle now can be an advantage at another point.
Same with goods btw, I like having a sizable amount of goods in store. Even if just to be able to trade with my FS members when they need something. Or to use them to buy KPs in large numbers when needed.

Purely looking at it from a "me, me, me, now, now, now" point of view you are correct of course. Looking at it from a bit other perspective it may change.
There does exist a point though for end-game players whereby they can literally have near-infinite military resources, such that even Lv3 of the Spire won't sweat them that much...

ie: If a player has say, *both* the DB + SSS at Lv20+, and, 4-5 max Lv armouries, and, max level barracks/training grounds/merc camp, and, Lv15-20+ of the relevant training time boosters (ie: Needles for Barracks), and, Lv15-20+ of the other 'free' troop producers (ie: Flying Academy for 'free' Sorcs/Priests, etc...)
Then well, it's probably a challenge to actually burn through ALL of that even with the insane troop requirements of the Spire, especially if that player can keep their barracks/merc camp/etc... running 24/7!

Still, that type of player is probably what, maybe only representing 2-5% or so of the entire player base?
So great, a tiny minority have the stupidly insane production ability to crank out 10,000's of troops per day. And the rest of us lowly plebs do what now?!:rolleyes:

I feel like I'm a heavy producer myself, being able to crank out well over 2.4k troops per day between my barracks/training grounds + all the 'free' barbarians from my Bulwark AW.
But that's now just a drop in the bucket when just the 5th friggin encounter is demanding over 900 troops per slot... by the 8th encounter, it's like 1100 or more troops per slot!

It's completely bonkers that anyone actually thought this was remotely acceptable!:mad::mad::(
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
There does exist a point though for end-game players whereby they can literally have near-infinite military resources, such that even Lv3 of the Spire won't sweat them that much...

ie: If a player has say, *both* the DB + SSS at Lv20+, and, 4-5 max Lv armouries, and, max level barracks/training grounds/merc camp, and, Lv15-20+ of the relevant training time boosters (ie: Needles for Barracks), and, Lv15-20+ of the other 'free' troop producers (ie: Flying Academy for 'free' Sorcs/Priests, etc...)
Then well, it's probably a challenge to actually burn through ALL of that even with the insane troop requirements of the Spire, especially if that player can keep their barracks/merc camp/etc... running 24/7!

Still, that type of player is probably what, maybe only representing 2-5% or so of the entire player base?
So great, a tiny minority have the stupidly insane production ability to crank out 10,000's of troops per day. And the rest of us lowly plebs do what now?!:rolleyes:

I feel like I'm a heavy producer myself, being able to crank out well over 2.4k troops per day between my barracks/training grounds + all the 'free' barbarians from my Bulwark AW.
But that's now just a drop in the bucket when just the 5th friggin encounter is demanding over 900 troops per slot... by the 8th encounter, it's like 1100 or more troops per slot!

It's completely bonkers that anyone actually thought this was remotely acceptable!:mad::mad::(
I have the max squad size of 3984 and I currently make 4090 troops per slot, with it taking either 1 1/2 or 2 hours per slot, depending on which building the production is from. So if I am making dogs non-stop at 2 hours per slot, that is a little over 48k per day. Or I can make a little more in the Barracks, since that one is slightly faster. That is good for the 1st floor of the Spire, but the first fight of the 2nd floor gives me a squad size close to 7000, so those 48k troops can disappear in a hurry if the fights are bad. And someone else here, with lower squad size but many more AW levels than me, had a Spire squad size of 10k on the 2nd floor. Anyway, this is the thing that will keep me out of the 2nd and 3rd floors from now on. And an aside to that, I burn a decent amount of troops every week in the tournament, so my entire troop production will never go just to the Spire.