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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Spire of Eternity feedback

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
There does exist a point though for end-game players whereby they can literally have near-infinite military resources, such that even Lv3 of the Spire won't sweat them that much...

ie: If a player has say, *both* the DB + SSS at Lv20+, and, 4-5 max Lv armouries, and, max level barracks/training grounds/merc camp, and, Lv15-20+ of the relevant training time boosters (ie: Needles for Barracks), and, Lv15-20+ of the other 'free' troop producers (ie: Flying Academy for 'free' Sorcs/Priests, etc...)
Then well, it's probably a challenge to actually burn through ALL of that even with the insane troop requirements of the Spire, especially if that player can keep their barracks/merc camp/etc... running 24/7!

Still, that type of player is probably what, maybe only representing 2-5% or so of the entire player base?
So great, a tiny minority have the stupidly insane production ability to crank out 10,000's of troops per day. And the rest of us lowly plebs do what now?!:rolleyes:

I feel like I'm a heavy producer myself, being able to crank out well over 2.4k troops per day between my barracks/training grounds + all the 'free' barbarians from my Bulwark AW.
But that's now just a drop in the bucket when just the 5th friggin encounter is demanding over 900 troops per slot... by the 8th encounter, it's like 1100 or more troops per slot!

It's completely bonkers that anyone actually thought this was remotely acceptable!:mad::mad::(
I agree,
Even with all my military AWs up and at mid-levels (11 and up, with the MM at 23), 3 full barracks it still depletes my number of troops insanely to have to go through the Spire. That in itself would be bad enough, but might be acceptable if the prizes were worth it. But a single 1-hour, 2-hour or 5-hour timereduction for an encounter where I lose an amount of troops that is perhaps 15 worth of producing just doesn't cut it for me.

@Enevhar Aldarion
Exactly my situation. Even with a Needles at lvl 19, 3 maxed armories and a DB at lvl 11 and a SSS at lvl 17 and all the other military AWs including the Simian at lvl 11 or higher I just can't keep up with the demands of the troops the Spire requires.
 
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RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
Purely looking at it from a "me, me, me, now, now, now" point of view you are correct of course. Looking at it from a bit other perspective it may change.
I don't know what to say to this.

I guess you missed all my posts saying that I am perfectly capable of balancing my resources production/use even doing what I want in the tourney plus finishing the Spire. Yes I dialed back my tourney target by 10% but I can forgo those, that's cos those were rounds 6 of provinces 10 - 27, which gives runes and broken shards. I don't need those right now. If one day I need them again I'll just make some adjustments. What's so hard to get about that? You might like to apply the "me, me, me" label to yourself too
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I don't know what to say to this.

I guess you missed all my posts saying that I am perfectly capable of balancing my resources production/use even doing what I want in the tourney plus finishing the Spire. Yes I dialed back my tourney target by 10% but I can forgo those, that's cos those were rounds 6 of provinces 10 - 27, which gives runes and broken shards. I don't need those right now. If one day I need them again I'll just make some adjustments. What's so hard to get about that? You might like to apply the "me, me, me" label to yourself too
Then please, pray tell and enlighten us lowly scrubs with your own stats for;
- ALL your AW's + their levels
- # of armories and their levels
- Barracks/Merc Camp/Training Grounds levels
- # of magic ressies/workshops
- current chapter progress

Obviously the entire rest of the player base are just clueless, slobbering dolts and "doing it wrong" while you've figured everything out.:rolleyes:
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
I don't know what to say to this.

I guess you missed all my posts saying that I am perfectly capable of balancing my resources production/use even doing what I want in the tourney plus finishing the Spire. Yes I dialed back my tourney target by 10% but I can forgo those, that's cos those were rounds 6 of provinces 10 - 27, which gives runes and broken shards. I don't need those right now. If one day I need them again I'll just make some adjustments. What's so hard to get about that? You might like to apply the "me, me, me" label to yourself too
No, I actually read that and responded to that too. Might be hard to remember since you seem so focused on yourself being the top dog who has everything figured out while we poor idiots don't get it.

And actually, if you had read my posts, you would know and understand that the 'me, me, me, now, now, now' does not really apply to me. Or rather really does not apply to me. If that were the case I would be in a tourney oriented FS instead of my present one, which is more one for the social contact and the joy in the game itself. Not to mention that I've had discussions showing I'm more interested in out FS advancing than me advancing.
My present FS is a relaxed one, which does not exactly do great wonders for my advancing, but that's not a problem for me since that's not exactly my main goal. In fact, our FS seems to be extremely good in advancing beginning players at a fast pace, mainly because I'll sport them goods when they need them to get a kickstart.
So sorry for me not being sorry for your being wrong there.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
Some people here seem to be thinking that having a larger training size somehow makes it easier to cover the troop costs for the Spire. It really doesn't. All that does is let you keep your training buildings running for longer without you having to check in. It has absolutely no effect on your fighting capabilities. To that end, the Dwarven Bulwark, Shrine of Shrewdy Shrooms, and armories have absolutely no direct effect on the Spire or any other form of combat. They just let you go away for the game for longer without your barracks/training grounds/mercenary camp going idle if you're training troops. Of course, the free units you get from those two AWs might be helpful in some capacity but that's not what you guys were talking about when you were including these AWs, right?
 

RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
Lol okay let's cut the crap about me me me or big players vs small players

Squad sizes too large: I agree and have mentioned it in my feedback
Convince too expensive: I agree and have mentioned it in my feedback
Prizes not worth it: I don't agree, I like them
Spire not worth doing: I don't agree, I will do it. I also encourage people to try it.

There, simple. That's all.
 

Alistaire

Well-Known Member
Squad sizes too large: I agree and have mentioned it in my feedback
Convince too expensive: I agree and have mentioned it in my feedback
Prizes not worth it: I don't agree, I like them
Spire not worth doing: I don't agree, I will do it. I also encourage people to try it.

There, simple. That's all.
That last one just completely undermines the first 2. If players will still do it, then the costs are not too big.
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
There does exist a point though for end-game players whereby they can literally have near-infinite military resources, such that even Lv3 of the Spire won't sweat them that much...

ie: If a player has say, *both* the DB + SSS at Lv20+, and, 4-5 max Lv armouries, and, max level barracks/training grounds/merc camp, and, Lv15-20+ of the relevant training time boosters (ie: Needles for Barracks), and, Lv15-20+ of the other 'free' troop producers (ie: Flying Academy for 'free' Sorcs/Priests, etc...)
Then well, it's probably a challenge to actually burn through ALL of that even with the insane troop requirements of the Spire, especially if that player can keep their barracks/merc camp/etc... running 24/7!

Still, that type of player is probably what, maybe only representing 2-5% or so of the entire player base?
So great, a tiny minority have the stupidly insane production ability to crank out 10,000's of troops per day. And the rest of us lowly plebs do what now?!
Except those players most likely are spending most or all of those troops in the tournament, part of why they have those level AW's. I am not far off your description above and I won't waste my troops in spire, not when map 1 alone is 2 to 4 times my normal squad size. One mistake and a loss in a fight can negate the entire rewards earned. For me personally the tournament rewards out strip the spire and are reasonable, plus I can get more than enough spell fragments and spells that my ma only produces CC spells (might be different with recent reduction in spell fragments).

Also remember they penalize players with more wonder levels in the spire.

Squad sizes too large: I agree and have mentioned it in my feedback
Convince too expensive: I agree and have mentioned it in my feedback
Prizes not worth it: I don't agree, I like them
Spire not worth doing: I don't agree, I will do it. I also encourage people to try it.
Awesome feedback. Prizes are subjective which is why the need for feedback, for me they just aren't worth the losses. I need a higher chance at the better prizes (dwarven armoury) or more of existing ones (like more CC spells, time instants) to be worth it. The randomness counts against them as I have to factor in getting stuff I don't want most of the time, if they gave some kind of small guaranteed prize along with the random ones it would adjust my assessment, assuming it was a prize I valued. I figure the rewards on map 1 aren't to bad for the losses and I have the time to manual fight them by taking the entire time to do that map. The upcoming beta chances will change some people's view of the cost but again not mine (or make it worse for me).
 

mucksterme

Well-Known Member
I'm going to say something that will shock some people.
Hold on to your panties.
>_>
<_<
Ready?

Here goes

I do not care one bit the way things are done in FOE.
I don't play FOE.
If I played FOE I'd go to their forums for information.
In summation.
I do not care about FOE.



That does it...I'm leaving this game for good going to sell my inventory and go back to playing FoE. It was a nice trip. Best of luck to you all.
Thanks
Bye
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Also remember they penalize players with more wonder levels in the spire.
Accordingto Dony from beta, who unfortunatly is usually accurate. the difference between no wonders and all wonders to the max on your account the difference is 334% for a similar end game city.

When we cross refereced this number by looking at the same city 2 spires apart with 12 levels difference in wonders we could see that the estimate seems very plausible.
So far for wonders having only a little influence in the spire. 334% over everything else is massive!
 
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qaccy

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna flip things around here. A lot of people are suggesting that rewards for level 1 be lowered along with the costs to go for them. I think instead that the rewards for level 2 and 3 should be increased. I've come around to the thinking that level 1's costs are actually fairly reasonable for what you can get out of it, even if the baseline is still too high for my liking. However, everything beyond level 1 is in need of adjustment. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the only difference between level 1 and level 3 is that the final encounter in level 3 adds a Genie to the reward pool, right? Perhaps these rewards are going to or already do look different on beta, but right now I don't do anything past level 1 unless the fights are easy victories where I won't even lose half a squad.

I think many of us were or still are shaken up by the Spire's pretty high barrier to entry compared to the provinces and tournaments we've been used to for years. However, an easy battle is still an easy battle. Anyone relatively experienced with the battle system will have a pretty good idea before combat even starts how painful a given battle is going to be. For the battles that aren't painful, it doesn't really matter to me how big the squad sizes are since I'm not really losing very many units to win them. Of course, since the encounters in the Spire are completely random, I'll never know ahead of time what units to train or which encounters I'll even be able to fight in, but that's the case no matter what the squad size is.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna flip things around here. A lot of people are suggesting that rewards for level 1 be lowered along with the costs to go for them. I think instead that the rewards for level 2 and 3 should be increased. I've come around to the thinking that level 1's costs are actually fairly reasonable for what you can get out of it, even if the baseline is still too high for my liking. However, everything beyond level 1 is in need of adjustment. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the only difference between level 1 and level 3 is that the final encounter in level 3 adds a Genie to the reward pool, right? Perhaps these rewards are going to or already do look different on beta, but right now I don't do anything past level 1 unless the fights are easy victories where I won't even lose half a squad.

I think many of us were or still are shaken up by the Spire's pretty high barrier to entry compared to the provinces and tournaments we've been used to for years. However, an easy battle is still an easy battle. Anyone relatively experienced with the battle system will have a pretty good idea before combat even starts how painful a given battle is going to be. For the battles that aren't painful, it doesn't really matter to me how big the squad sizes are since I'm not really losing very many units to win them. Of course, since the encounters in the Spire are completely random, I'll never know ahead of time what units to train or which encounters I'll even be able to fight in, but that's the case no matter what the squad size is.
You pretty right, but the main issue is that when things go sour, they go really sour. so people with little experience in fighting don't lose half a squad they lose many squads.

The second problem are multiwave battles, somtimes they are easy, somtimes they are insane where the 2nd and/or 3rd battle is the opposith of the earlier ones.
there are the real troop killers, and sometimes unwinnable.

Also your troop losses are based on manual combat, while not everyone has access to that, for example mobile players can only do auto-combat, which incurrs many many many more losses. and in general make multi-wave combat impossible.

The pretty high barrier is the spire's achilles heel, and that will always be the case in it's current format. as most won't even be willing to try it.
 

Risen Malchiah

Well-Known Member
Accordingto Dony from beta, who unfortunatly is usually accurate. the difference between no wonders and all wonders to the max on your account the difference is 334% for a similar end game city.

When we cross refereced this number by looking at the same city 2 spires apart with 12 levels difference in wonders we could see that the estimate seems very plausible.
So far for wonders having only a little influence in the spire. 334% over everything else is massive!
This is helpful. When I heard that AW levels impact the difficulty of the Spire, I had to rethink the way I level them. Now I'm only investing in stuff that will help in the Spire (like Sanctuary, Simia, Needles, etc) until I feel comfortable enough to do others.

I may also cut back on the Spire until the rewards improve. The stuff along the way doesn't bother me. It's the piddly options at the end. A 5% portal profit after the first level boss? Why is that even in there? Those can be in other chests along the way... just not that one.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
@MinMax Gamer I actually should mention that I never fight manually, huh? I've been doing tournaments for so long, and the battle system is so slow, that I don't even bother with it. So when I make a determination for battle difficulty, it's talking about auto-fight only. In addition, as I alluded to when I mentioned knowing beforehand how a battle's probably going to go, I'm not going to march my troops into a battle where I know I'm probably going to lose or barely win. Those multi-wave fights with 'opposite' troops in each wave that you mention are something I've played long enough to know that they're a waste of resources. Perhaps there are players who will blindly throw their units at them and then wonder why they aren't victorious, but that's not me. That's just wasting resources, isn't it?
 

Mykan

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna flip things around here. A lot of people are suggesting that rewards for level 1 be lowered along with the costs to go for them. I think instead that the rewards for level 2 and 3 should be increased.
I agree with this. Inno has 2 levers to pull - the cost or the reward. How they tweak those is up to them and it doesn't really bother me, they just need to close the gap on maps 2 and 3. Map 1 I tend to do, sometimes based on luck it is more costly one week over another.

Also your troop losses are based on manual combat, while not everyone has access to that, for example mobile players can only do auto-combat, which incurrs many many many more losses. and in general make multi-wave combat impossible.
If they base it on manual combat that is very scary. I remember the head CM telling (or boasting) when we complained world map fights for starting cities were too hard that they could win them on manual with a single squad so the fights were fine. You never hear a person in chapter 2 saying they can win those fights with 5 squads let alone 1. So I sincerely hope they aren't using someone like that as their benchmark.

I did find it funny how they said manual combat would make it easier for people not good at combat, from my experience those people auto-combat.
 
To me, The Spire, just like many Adventures in this game, just eats away at our resources. I have a decent sized Fellowship. We are all new, (under 4 months old). But some of us have played numerous building games over the years. Forge of Empires etc. They all have a basic recipe for building our cities. And of course it's a business, so making things difficult unless you add Money is the key for the Game Makers to make the millions they are making. An unbelievable amount of money by the way, if you check it out.
Point is.... the treasures are so minimal like usual in the game. Is it really worth our while to add it into our day to day game playing? Unless you have very die hard players and a few with an open pocket book. I don't see many of my own members being active in the Spire. The same with the Adventures or many of the Quests. They are designed to take much more than they give. For the regular person that is home-bound, or bored and sits with phone or laptop playing while watching the news, tv or a movie it's fine. Or taking a couple breaks at work and jumping into the game to reap our supplies, coins and goods quickly. Most of us are just passing time trying to build our cities and enjoy the chat between friendly members. Adding more things to do that takes away what we are constantly striving to make and create. It's creating stress in something we are actually trying to enjoy and relax at.

All in all, it's another thing that takes away more than it gives.