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Discussion Spire of Eternity feedback

DeletedUser7998

Guest
Dear Humans and Elves,

Please take a moment to let us know what you think about our Spire of Eternity!

We hope you enjoy it and we look forward to hearing what you think!
The first few steps are okay. It's when you use armies on auto fight that the outcome is ridiculous when your armies are way stronger and they still lose. Then there's the convincing aspect. What a ripoff. It will also steal your diamonds so watch out. The rewards are cheap compared to what is demanded if doing the convincing mode. The army losses are higher than if you were battling for individual provinces. Whoever designed this one better go back to the drawing board.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
@seamusthewolf I know that FAs can be frustrating at times (less so now, since the quest overhaul), but do keep in mind that FAs usually have no resource cost whatsoever as they usually only require badges. It could be an inconvenience to change up one's collection schedule, but at the end of the day you still get to keep most (usually all) of the resources you're collecting while working through the FAs.
 

mudpuppy630511

New Member
Since when? Again, the squad size required for the battles is more than my active army, plus I may win the first round, but round two I get smoked. I have been holding off on the non-essential squad sizes (the ones that are "dead-ends") in my tech tree for tourney ease. The negotiation costs bankrupt me of the goods I need for the tourney. I'm in Woodelves. My Monastary is lvl 7, my needles is lvl 8, and my Forge is lvl 6. I do have my phoenix fully evolved and upgraded to my chapter, but I'm guessing that ITS CONTRIBUTION is a fraction of what "they" compute along with the AW's. Again, I think the Spire is a load of crap meant for players who are endgame and need a challenge to pass their time. IT should be only available to players who are in the endgame (all chapters completed).
 

RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
The first few steps are okay. It's when you use armies on auto fight that the outcome is ridiculous when your armies are way stronger and they still lose.
I find this hard to believe. As @qaccy has pointed out just recently, battling in the Spire is no different from anywhere else - an experience I corroborate. The same unit type advantages/disadvantages apply. If you did indeed have a "way stronger" army matchup, there's no reason you should lose. To help qualify your claim, you should provide more information such as what units did you match against the AI and your unit levels.

The real difficulty in the Fight option is a) squad size and b) the enemy lineup is a lot more tricky than in tournaments and map encounters. I like the challenge of b) but the presence of a) makes it hard to choose the Fight option simply due to not having enough troops. Thus I proposed a 25% reduction in squad size required so that the Fight option is a more doable.
 
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Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
Some people here seem to be thinking that having a larger training size somehow makes it easier to cover the troop costs for the Spire. It really doesn't. All that does is let you keep your training buildings running for longer without you having to check in. It has absolutely no effect on your fighting capabilities. To that end, the Dwarven Bulwark, Shrine of Shrewdy Shrooms, and armories have absolutely no direct effect on the Spire or any other form of combat. They just let you go away for the game for longer without your barracks/training grounds/mercenary camp going idle if you're training troops. Of course, the free units you get from those two AWs might be helpful in some capacity but that's not what you guys were talking about when you were including these AWs, right?
I disagree, at least in part. It's about the synergy between different AWs. If the trainingsize increases, it takes longer, true. But the Needles decreases training time again. So I end up training more units per hour. Though it's true in itself that the size 'only' means not having to check in all the time, that can be a huge benefit.
I have a job where cellphones are restricted in certain area's, meaning if I can't have it running long enough, it will stop, and lost time is a problem as it cannot be regained. Same goes for sleeping btw. Not to mention that the Dwarven Bulwark to me is just another armoury, though one that provides free light melee instead of orcs I have to pay for in supplies.

And yes, I did mention the benefit of those free troops in an earlier post. With all 5 unit-generating AWs at lvl 11 or higher, and only harvesting 3x per day, that still means 2 full squads of each type each day. That's 10 full squads my barracks don't have to produce, that adds up really quickly.

@RandomNo.
No, even with stronger armies one can still lose big time when faced with multiple waves since the autofight has no clue how to save certain troops for the second wave, let alone the third. It will send troops you might want to save for the next wave into battle without any regard of future battles.
Also, the surviving troops get mixed up in position in the next wave, which can severely hamper their effectiveness.
Frankly, doing the Spire on autobattle is a certain way of loosing ridiculous amounts of troops for very scanty rewards.
 
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RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
No, even with stronger armies one can still lose big time when faced with multiple waves since the autofight has no clue how to save certain troops for the second wave, let alone the third. It will send troops you might want to save for the next wave into battle without any regard of future battles.
Also, the surviving troops get mixed up in position in the next wave, which can severely hamper their effectiveness.
Frankly, doing the Spire on autobattle is a certain way of loosing ridiculous amounts of troops for very scanty rewards.
If that is the scenario then the "way stronger" army claim is erroneous. When one says "way stronger", I'd expect a kind of match up such as 5 mages vs. 5 heavy melee or heavy range. All enemy lineups are visible before the start of a fight and if I put in 5x mage vs. 5x heavy range in the first wave while I knew the second wave was 2x heavy range + 3x light range, I would definitely not call that a "way stronger army". Both Qaccy and I have said or implied in our feedback that we only fight when more or less guaranteed of a win. Easy fights in the Spire are few and far between so let the player beware.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
@Dhurrin My main point was that training size doesn't have any effect on how one performs in battle. The discussion I was responding to seemed to imply that a larger training size actually made your units stronger, or at least overlooked the fact that it doesn't. The convenience of training more troops at once is certainly helpful, but has no bearing at all on what happens when you actually start fighting.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
@Dhurrin My main point was that training size doesn't have any effect on how one performs in battle. The discussion I was responding to seemed to imply that a larger training size actually made your units stronger, or at least overlooked the fact that it doesn't. The convenience of training more troops at once is certainly helpful, but has no bearing at all on what happens when you actually start fighting.
You are correct. It doesn't change the outcome of the fighting, it just makes it a lot easier to replenish lost troops. Especially for players in lower chapters however, it means that they may be unable to even fill complete squads due to the ridiculous size of the squads.

Btw, just to be nitpicky, a higher trainingsize does offer another benefit. The ability to use larger time-reduction instants to create troops. If your barracks at full capacity only run for 4 1/2 hours, you're not likely to use a 5-hour reduction as it means you waste some of it. If the barracks run for 5 1/2 hours, that instant suddenly will become useful for this purpose. Just like I can (and do at times) use the 8-hour reductions, but will not use the 14-hour ones. At least not yet, though at some point that may change if/when my trainingsize increases to where I won't waste any of that time.

If that is the scenario then the "way stronger" army claim is erroneous. When one says "way stronger", I'd expect a kind of match up such as 5 mages vs. 5 heavy melee or heavy range. All enemy lineups are visible before the start of a fight and if I put in 5x mage vs. 5x heavy range in the first wave while I knew the second wave was 2x heavy range + 3x light range, I would definitely not call that a "way stronger army". Both Qaccy and I have said or implied in our feedback that we only fight when more or less guaranteed of a win. Easy fights in the Spire are few and far between so let the player beware.
Not entirely true. You can see the opposing troops, but not the terrain which sometimes has a huge impact. Also, though you can choose your own line-up at the first wave, the troops get new positions in the second wave, without the player having a say in it which I consider a serious handicap.

As for choosing which fights to win, I feel most are winnable, but especially the later ones only on manual fights, and even then often with high casualties.
As I stated before, I feel the losses just aren't worth anywhere near the gains, and so will not be too interested in playing.

The need for manual fights, which is even more important when facing multiple waves, because the AI has no concept of sparing certain troops for the next wave, means that everyone trying to fight on the app is royally screwed.
As is everyone like me who often chooses autobattle on the PC for lack of time to do each fight manually. I mean, even in the tourney I often accept the higher casualty rates due to lack of time. Fine, that's a choice I make and can live with because the rewards are such I feel they outweigh the cost.
But the percentage of losses and the amount of troops due to the size of the squads lost in the Spire are so ridiculous that I'm still trying to recover from the first week it appeared, for gains that were hardly noteworthy for me.
 
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Mykan

Well-Known Member
So one possible options is a reverse of their thinking and instead of jumping squad sizes up on multiple wave fights they could drop them. From my minimal records the wave fights on map 1 are double, triple, triple, quadruple the first fights squad size in spire (that varies by town). All of those fights (from my records) have us at an advantage in terms of squad size ratio (not surprising when we have to fight double and triple waves). But a reduced squad size on those fights would encourage people to try the combat option more if the losses for a single fight were reduced. The fact a person may need a couple tries would probably see the losses still high for the average person but the entry barrier would be lower encouraging attempts.

The other alternative is an alteration to how the squad make up of multi wave fights works. If they make the multi-wave fight formats follow tournament rules for troop selection then that would also improve the ability to win the fights while keeping the challenge of multiple waves. For the single wave fights the mixed troops is fine as it provides its own unique challenge.
 

RandomNo.

Well-Known Member
Not entirely true. You can see the opposing troops, but not the terrain which sometimes has a huge impact. Also, though you can choose your own line-up at the first wave, the troops get new positions in the second wave, without the player having a say in it which I consider a serious handicap.

As for choosing which fights to win, I feel most are winnable, but especially the later ones only on manual fights, and even then often with high casualties.
As I stated before, I feel the losses just aren't worth anywhere near the gains, and so will not be too interested in playing.

The need for manual fights, which is even more important when facing multiple waves, because the AI has no concept of sparing certain troops for the next wave, means that everyone trying to fight on the app is royally screwed.
As is everyone like me who often chooses autobattle on the PC for lack of time to do each fight manually. I mean, even in the tourney I often accept the higher casualty rates due to lack of time. Fine, that's a choice I make and can live with because the rewards are such I feel they outweigh the cost.
But the percentage of losses and the amount of troops due to the size of the squads lost in the Spire are so ridiculous that I'm still trying to recover from the first week it appeared, for gains that were hardly noteworthy for me.
Look, I'm not here to argue semantics and battle nuances. I auto battle 90% of the time in tournaments, enough to know that whatever the terrain is, 5 mages are going to win against 5 heavy range or heavy melee, a matchup I consider to be indeed a "way stronger army" vs. the A.I. I highly doubt most of these people making complaints about losing fights with "way stronger armies" had really thought about the nuances you mention here and there, still believed they had a "way stronger army", subsequently went on to fight and lost and then concluded that the Spire is broken because of that. A more likely scenario is people overestimated their ability or underestimated the A.I. Anyway, until and unless we have more information from those claiming that they lost with "way stronger armies", we're just making guesses as to how they actually lost.
 

sputnik9009

Well-Known Member
Am I the only one who keeps hearing Billy Joel singing?

"We can't beat the Spire
We use our armies but theirs fight harder
We can't climb the Spire
Our goods are gone and we aren't any higher ..."

It is just me?
OK
I'll show myself out
I...
i...
............................................... i hear Billy Joel, mon! :):):D:D:p:D:D:):)
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
Look, I'm not here to argue semantics and battle nuances. I auto battle 90% of the time in tournaments, enough to know that whatever the terrain is, 5 mages are going to win against 5 heavy range or heavy melee, a matchup I consider to be indeed a "way stronger army" vs. the A.I. I highly doubt most of these people making complaints about losing fights with "way stronger armies" had really thought about the nuances you mention here and there, still believed they had a "way stronger army", subsequently went on to fight and lost and then concluded that the Spire is broken because of that. A more likely scenario is people overestimated their ability or underestimated the A.I. Anyway, until and unless we have more information from those claiming that they lost with "way stronger armies", we're just making guesses as to how they actually lost.
Again, it depends. Yes, 5 mages vs 5 heavy ranged or heavy melee (or a mix) should win easily.
But 5 light melee/light ranged SHOULD easily win against 5 mages. Except when the terrain is laid out that those units can't reach them before being hit several times by those mages.
I've had fights in the spire where my opposing forces were light ranged and mages. Light melee should be an easy win. But if my light melee units have to go across some kind of maze before reaching them and thus get hit several times, they're screwed.
Also, from your remarks it's obvious you're an advanced player. Players with less choice of units have a severe drawback.

Doesn't mean I don't agree with you more data should be collected, but there are too many players who are definitely being discouraged to even try again.

And from our earlier discussion it is obvious that you don't seem to be bothered by using up a serious part if not most of your units, since you stated you have no use for them 'laying around' and have the same attitude towards goods. Other players may have a need to save up for other uses.

My main problem in this discussion is that I can see your point of view, but you seem unable to see anything from anyone else's point of view and, at least from the way you post, seem to think you have the perfect way figured out and it should work for everyone and anyone who doesn't agree doesn't understand the game.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Again, it depends. Yes, 5 mages vs 5 heavy ranged or heavy melee (or a mix) should win easily.
But 5 light melee/light ranged SHOULD easily win against 5 mages. Except when the terrain is laid out that those units can't reach them before being hit several times by those mages.
I've had fights in the spire where my opposing forces were light ranged and mages. Light melee should be an easy win. But if my light melee units have to go across some kind of maze before reaching them and thus get hit several times, they're screwed.
Also, from your remarks it's obvious you're an advanced player. Players with less choice of units have a severe drawback.
...OR, you then have a fight like;
- enemy = 5x light melee/light ranged mix
- throw 5x heavy ranged at them, but there's literally NO terrain what-so-ever, and you watch helplessly as your Mortars get fething shredded & wiped out by the very units they're supposed to hard-counter! :mad::mad:

I mean, I used the "correct" units. But they're so fething worthless and incapable of killing anything, that even the things they're supposed to demolish beat the living crap out of them?!

What about the fact that enemies are 3* right from the very first encounter?
Ch.3-5 players are boned - their units get hosed under debuffs, which they can't even answer back with their own yet, and they don't have much in the way of training size production unless they tear out most of their factories for armories! (and then they can't research due to limited goods production!)
Even Ch.6-7 players are in a rough spot, since they're only just starting to unlock the 3* barracks units.


Doesn't mean I don't agree with you more data should be collected, but there are too many players who are definitely being discouraged to even try again.
We really don't need to collect a ton of data to tell us that the Spire is horrendously expensive for only middling rewards. ;)

What would be nice is, if Inno would pull their heads outa their nethers for once, and actually listen to our feedback and start tinkering with the overall balance so we can start collecting some good data on this stupid turd!
ie: leave squad sizes as is for now, but reduce enemies to 1* on Lv1 & 2* on Lv2 - how do the Ch3-9 players especially find this?


And from our earlier discussion it is obvious that you don't seem to be bothered by using up a serious part if not most of your units, since you stated you have no use for them 'laying around' and have the same attitude towards goods. Other players may have a need to save up for other uses.

My main problem in this discussion is that I can see your point of view, but you seem unable to see anything from anyone else's point of view and, at least from the way you post, seem to think you have the perfect way figured out and it should work for everyone and anyone who doesn't agree doesn't understand the game.
Attitude really comes across as an elitist, "Lol! I can do it so it's fine - you just to 'GitGud Scrub/L2P Noob', trololololz!"

I didn't realize I'd suddenly found myself back on DakkaDakka somehow?:rolleyes: