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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Spire of Eternity feedback

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
Update on the spire for me:
I've been working the fights up to the first boss. I've only tried the catering part once and accomplished it, though I thought it was irritating. If you're going to cater and spend the "goods/supplies/money then just do it. Why make it annoying.
So I've fought each time it's been available since it's come out, partly to let the FS I'm in know of my findings and to make suggestions. I've stopped at the first boss each time. and yes, it's too expensive above the first boss by a long shot.
Since I'm fighting it, I just look at the catering costs and shake my head and click fight.
Now as far as fighting, I'm actually loosing few troops in the overall picture, but I'm a fighting freak and pretty damn good at it.
Straight fights are fairly simple. I scout, then place my troops. I fight manual in the spire and manual when I have the time in the tourneys but autofight is getting used more and more due to time. I hate the way the AI moves my pieces when I auto fight after I start a tourney encounter. I'm almost screaming at the screen, what the hell are you doing that for... so I can only imagine what is happening on a straight autofight.
So, spire... Straight forward encounters are not quite the problem, losses I see can be high and especially for a city not set up to fight and rebound afterwards. That said, it's the multi wave fights... If you set up for the obvious first round, the second or third will often pummel the snot out of you because you can't change your match-ups. So a wise person tries to think ahead and place a more varied setup to counter the future waves. I've been pretty successful at this, but still, the losses do mount up.
I've pushed into the second set of fights and found the fighting noticeably harder straight off, so much so that I backed off before I damaged my tourney prospects for that week.
Upon looking at the prizes in that whole next section up to the frog, I found the prizes to be very similar to the first round and for the overall cost of doing that next round to the boss, I feel INNO has an imbalance to address.
For those that do enjoy the spire and the tough of it, I'd say, stick to the first round and whenever you are faced with multiple waves, try and varry your troop placement a little to counter potential threats. You can kind of read into where the AI is going to go by seeing what kind of troops are being used.
Look at what blend is being used against you and know you'll need to blend too.
I've managed to get all of the moonstone set except the gate... multiples of the small pieces. It's nice having it... It's far from a fire bird, but I'm glad I don't have to work so hard to get CC and spell fragments, and the few thousand scrolls for me is a nice little perk.
Conclusion: To the first boss... ignore after the spire afterward, and have your fire bird fed, and other fighting building boosts up and running for best results.
It will take a while but you can get all the pieces of the moonstone set within the first section.
Blessings to all, rock on!
You describe some issues, I want to pick out 2 and elaborate on them.
First, you say you scout ,so I assume go in on manual with some rangers to look at the terrain, back out, choose units and go back in. Great, except it takes a lot of time and with some of the opposing units having a real high initiative it means taking losses just to take a look. Also, it is something one cannot do when using the app, so even the scouting is out for players on mobile devices. And for players in lower chapters just taking damages to take a look is not an excellent way of playing.

Secondly, you state that you do most of the fights manually. I find the fights are do-able manually, even though the losses are high due to the sheer amount of troops involved. But you mention the same problem I found as well. The AI already isn't great, but it has absolutely no clue on how to handle multiple waves and will sacrifice right at the start of the first wave units one would want to keep for the second or third wave.
Not only that, but the game changes the setup of your units in the next waves. At the very least a player should have the ability to choose the setup again before entering the fight in the next wave.

All in all, it means that the Spire is pretty much out for anyone playing by app, unless one wants to negotiate most of the encounters. This is a great oversight on Inno's part since more and more people are using the app. Making a game lose a lot of the functionality will not exactly encourage new(er) players.

And though some people praise the new library set, I'm completely unimpressed. Yes, they create some nice decaying sentient goods (for me in chapter 14), but at a rate it hardly even registers. For lower chapters it generates some supplies and goods, but again not exactly at a spectacular rate.
Considering the effort needed to get them, I feel the prizes are just not even close to being worth the effort. Or rather, I think the buildings are just fine as a reward, since finally there are some buildings that do not overproduce goods, but the effort to get them is completely out of sync with their performance.
The spell fragments and the CC-spell on the other hand are very great additions. Though finding 3 or 4 of those in 1 chest at the first fights seems a bit overmuch. That could be reduced a bit, but then again, the whole reward system needs a thorough looking at.

The Spire could be made easier with pretty much the same rewards for the first round up to the boss, then harder on the second time through with better rewards and then again harder and better prizes for the 3rd time. And for those who really are into it, why not make it an open-ended system?
Round 1 should be do-able with some effort even for players who are serious about it but still in chapter 3. With squads maxed at the regular squadsize.
Round 2 should for instance have a 25% increase in squadsize for the players army, but 33% for the AI. And an increase in the negotiation-cost to reflect that as well.
In round 3 that increase could be added again, ad infinitum. Of course, the value of the prizes should reflect the increased effort.

And yes, that would make it easier for more advanced players to get more and better rewards, but that is not so different from the tourney. A player in chapter 3 will probably not do much more than 5 provinces, where an advanced player can easily do 25, thus gaining more and better rewards. There's nothing wrong with that.
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
You describe some issues, I want to pick out 2 and elaborate on them.
First, you say you scout ,so I assume go in on manual with some rangers to look at the terrain, back out, choose units and go back in. Great, except it takes a lot of time and with some of the opposing units having a real high initiative it means taking losses just to take a look. Also, it is something one cannot do when using the app, so even the scouting is out for players on mobile devices. And for players in lower chapters just taking damages to take a look is not an excellent way of playing.
Good post Dhurrin.
As far as my scouting, my barracks speed is cranked up pretty well with a level 24 Needles and my Training grounds and Merc Camp is MUCH slower at production, so I scout with units from my barracks. (I'm in S&D). Usually the archer, but if I see the Mist Walker, then a barbarian. They are both easy for me to replace and I have the Shrooms and DB to offset losses too.
You right about the time... manual fighting with scouting is much more time consuming when you add it all up and I play off my desktop computer, not an app or mobile. Your information is good to know.

Secondly, you state that you do most of the fights manually. I find the fights are do-able manually, even though the losses are high due to the sheer amount of troops involved. But you mention the same problem I found as well. The AI already isn't great, but it has absolutely no clue on how to handle multiple waves and will sacrifice right at the start of the first wave units one would want to keep for the second or third wave.
Not only that, but the game changes the setup of your units in the next waves. At the very least a player should have the ability to choose the setup again before entering the fight in the next wave.
With the Spire, I believe it is best to fight manually, the AI is junk and will already put fighting in the Spire as a hardship, into something akin to folly.
YOU are spot on about the next waves. I couldn't believe they move your units around shifting your setup then add different units for you to fight in each new wave. If they are going to do that, then I feel you should be able to PLACE your same units to the best you can in the upcoming fights. The way it is now is just someone being mean spirited.

I can happily agree with your proposed changes to the Spire... It would retain some challenge, skill and effort and give someone playing it, satisfaction and much better prizes.
The prizes right now, for my level are okay, nothing to write home about but... it's helping me craft some stuff and taking some pressure off my level 4 Magic Academy and as I said, giving me some scrolls which I always seem to be short on. So not great, but okay.

Good post Dhurrin, thanks for responding.
 

kctanzen

Well-Known Member
As I was doing my knee therapy exercises (resistance bands are demon creations, I swear) .. a strange thought popped into my head.....
The math wizards will probably poke this full of holes but I thought it might be an interesting approach.

Several assumptions apply to make this scenario work ....
A -- player manages to get 12 endless scrolls OR
B -- player manages to get 6 endless scrolls and at least 2 each mana plants and gum trees, preferably 6 each
-- player can only collect factory resets 2x per day
-- player doesn't use time instants regularly (or at all) to maximize MM spells

This fits in the same footprint as a maxed out scrolls factory.
Replacing one factory with either set up above exceeds collecting 6 x 3 hr productions from one factory, 6 collects a day being very difficult to sustain anyway.

Downside
---- Loses the ability to boost production with MM spells and other tools (ancient wonders, rushing production queues to leverage MM, evolving buildings) as examples
--- If score / ranking is important to the player, score goes down (potentially)
--- One less factory available if tier 2 productions are needed for quest options / chapter requirements

Upside
-- Frees up a considerable amount of population / culture / supplies support that can be re-directed to other areas
-- Culture goes up (potentially)
-- More mana generation (option B)
-- More tree gum (saves seeds / mana) (option B) -- and this decays into planks, which are useful in their own right
-- More spell fragments for crafting (potentially)
-- If the population / culture / supplies are used to create other buildings ( factories or military), this may actually increase score.
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
Thought I'd push forward again and see if I was being harsh in my criticism of the Spire...
All fights up to the first blue door (after the first boss) are 2 wave fights... all changed opponents in the second wave making it just that much harder. I manual fought all with boosts. lost thirty+ squads and managed to get a coin instant (Really, a coin instant?), 15% supply refill, 25 diamonds and a portal profit (I have 71 so it's not a big deal for me). I managed to get a bonus chest, but INNO in it's infinite wisdom set it down well up on the spire behind two blue doors... I'll never see it opened.
This will be my last test of the spire beyond the first boss and I'm signing off from the game tonight pretty unhappy with how things went.
I believe challenges are good and rewarding, but to not be able to move your pieces in setup in the second wave and have to fight against different enemies is just BS.
The fact that like all INNO fights, you can't see a terrain and have to scout it, which means loosing troops often is just an unpleasant perk.
No, I think INNO is sucking the enjoyment out of what could be a nice addition to the game. I wish they would change the AI so Auto-fights were good and useful, terrain was see-able for troop placement to, again, conserve time, and adjust the spire so it's fair and not abusive.
I've see lots of folks coming up with solutions to problems, but little in the way of fixes from INNO.
I'm getting annoyed and what enjoyment I do get from the game is slowly being overrun by the crap... I know why there are so many empty cities around me... it's a wake up call for you INNO... opening up another "world" solves NO problems...
You're just acting like an ostrich.
This could be fun, challenging and interesting with nice artwork and creativity. Instead, it's becoming more and more like a lead weight around my neck. That's only going to be tolerated for so long.
Fix what you HAVE, stop tweaking things that don't need fixing (like the buttons in the notifications menu) and address the issues your faithful players have brought to your attention for YEARS.
What the friggin' hell are you waiting for?
Yeah, as I said... I'm annoyed.
Good night.
 

mikeledo

Well-Known Member
I would like to see specific information ofthe teleport spell. Will the clock stop on an expiring building? Can I teleport my level 27 building and will it come back as a level 27 building?
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
I would like to see specific information ofthe teleport spell. Will the clock stop on an expiring building? Can I teleport my level 27 building and will it come back as a level 27 building?
Excellent question... well will it come back as a level 27? Will you be able to rearrange your city without having to sell off a bunch of things?
Inquiring minds want to know!
 

Alistaire

Well-Known Member
I would like to see specific information ofthe teleport spell. Will the clock stop on an expiring building? Can I teleport my level 27 building and will it come back as a level 27 building?
I have my doubts on it even being usable with expiring buildings. You'd need to put a timestamp on the item in your inventory, and it'd be unique, so if you were to put several in inventory they'd each have to appear separately, and that sounds pretty clunky for them to code.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
I have my doubts on it even being usable with expiring buildings. You'd need to put a timestamp on the item in your inventory, and it'd be unique, so if you were to put several in inventory they'd each have to appear separately, and that sounds pretty clunky for them to code.
I am guessing that if it works, then the time would be refreshed by referencing the index for that building.
 

arayla

Well-Known Member
I would like to see specific information of the teleport spell. Will the clock stop on an expiring building? Can I teleport my level 27 building and will it come back as a level 27 building?
It cannot be used on an expiring building or an evolving building.

A level 27 building will come back as a level 27 building.

If the building needs population, you do have to have enough population free in order to put it back into your city.

I tested it out on an armory, a Venars III and a factory, and they all worked great.
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
It cannot be used on an expiring building or an evolving building.

A level 27 building will come back as a level 27 building.

If the building needs population, you do have to have enough population free in order to put it back into your city.

I tested it out on an armory, a Venars III and a factory, and they all worked great.
Thanks for that info... very helpful!
 

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
Anyone knows how Spire's implementation of "Needed by someone else" works? So if ghosts want

coins coins supplies supplies supplies

and you offer

marble marble coins coins coins

What would the last ghost say? Is it still "Needed by someone else", or is it "No one else needs it" (as 2x coins are already accounted for)?
 

Queen Draggon

Active Member
I for one am extremely unhappy with Inno! I have already gone thru and read ALL the info on this new spell that I for one have been asking for for YEARS!! Now we finally get it and oh gee, the ONLY way to get it is to do the Spire!!!! Not only is this just ridiculous, but it seems to me that Inno took our "feedback" and said, oh well, who cares, they WILL play it or they will lose out on this! I guess Inno just wants to kick many of us out of the game entirely. That's for sure what it feels like to me! This is a HUGE SLAP IN THE FACE!! I am NOT interested in doing the Spire, doubt I ever will be cuz I don't feel like throwing away my troops for it, I enjoy the tourneys much much more, and prefer to throw them away there instead! The Spire should be a take it or leave it thing, and should NOT hold a new highly sought after item ransom!!! So, thanks so much for NOTHING Inno!!! Guess your not interested in making this game fair and fun for EVERYONE!!
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Anyone knows how Spire's implementation of "Needed by someone else" works? So if ghosts want

coins coins supplies supplies supplies

and you offer

marble marble coins coins coins

What would the last ghost say? Is it still "Needed by someone else", or is it "No one else needs it" (as 2x coins are already accounted for)?
"Needed by someone else." I have had similar happen to me where only one spirit wants something and I offered that item to two other spirits, and both said "needed by someone else" because both were talking about the same other spirit.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
Anyone knows how Spire's implementation of "Needed by someone else" works? So if ghosts want

coins coins supplies supplies supplies

and you offer

marble marble coins coins coins

What would the last ghost say? Is it still "Needed by someone else", or is it "No one else needs it" (as 2x coins are already accounted for)?
Don't know about the new one, but the old version it would just say 'wrong person' since it IS needed, but by another spirit. I highly doubt Inno thought about advanced optional answers like this.
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
I have already gone thru and read ALL the info on this new spell that I for one have been asking for for YEARS!! Now we finally get it and oh gee, the ONLY way to get it is to do the Spire!!!!
Good news is you get a decent chance at one on the fourth chest in. That's very easy to reach even for people in low chapters. So over time, each time the Spire appears, you can make another shot at one.
 

Black watch

Well-Known Member
Killed off 75 Squads of Troops which leaves nothing for the next Spire & Tournament.
I'm sorry, but when I read this, I heard Dirty Harry saying, "A man's got to know his limitations..."

The spire is not to be taken lightly... just about everyone agrees, it's a huge drain on resources. I'm a fighter and pretty good (trying to be humble) and I won't go beyond the first boss anymore.
This part of the game is debilitating to an extreme.
I hope you recover quickly...
 

Elven Ivory

Well-Known Member
It cannot be used on an expiring building or an evolving building.

A level 27 building will come back as a level 27 building.

If the building needs population, you do have to have enough population free in order to put it back into your city.

I tested it out on an armory, a Venars III and a factory, and they all worked great.
Also, per the Wiki it does not work on Ancient Wonders.

Another question: if you teleport a building into Inventory, can I assume you lose the ranking points from that building?