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    Your Elvenar Team

Spire Rules

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Does anyone know if the issue discussed in this (closed/archived) Ideas/Suggestions thread:
Spire Rules
has changed? I checked on Elcy and Khel worlds, but only one FS on K made the 1575 max and the #1 spot on E was less than the max. I haven't checked since we were talking about it in that thread, but it came up today in a post in the bugs reporting forum. That poster was saying that when a person left their FS their Spire points left, too. That thread is here:
Spire points error
It would be nice to know if you lose the Spire points if a member leaves before the Spire ends.
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know if the issue discussed in this (closed/archived) Ideas/Suggestions thread:
Spire Rules
has changed? I checked on Elcy and Khel worlds, but only one FS on K made the 1575 max and the #1 spot on E was less than the max. I haven't checked since we were talking about it in that thread, but it came up today in a post in the bugs reporting forum. That poster was saying that when a person left their FS their Spire points left, too. That thread is here:
Spire points error
It would be nice to know if you lose the Spire points if a member leaves before the Spire ends.
I’m not sure; high score on Ceravyn was 1575; so not necessarily a real answer to the question.
 

helya

Beloved Ex-Team Member
Currently if a player leaves a Fellowship during the Spire of Eternity any points they earned while a member of the first Fellowship stay there, any new points will go to the new Fellowship. They will receive the prizes only from the new Fellowship and provided they complete 1 encounter there. There has been some discussion about changing this to be more similar to the Fellowship Adventures, so while this is the case now, it could certainly change.
 
Currently if a player leaves a Fellowship during the Spire of Eternity any points they earned while a member of the first Fellowship stay there, any new points will go to the new Fellowship. They will receive the prizes only from the new Fellowship and provided they complete 1 encounter there. There has been some discussion about changing this to be more similar to the Fellowship Adventures, so while this is the case now, it could certainly change.
I have very good reason to believe that this is not correct. If this were truly the case. in our situation,we should have received surplus rather than a deficit a member left with more points than the member that joined during the Spire had when they joined.

Support did not provide this information despite my directly asking if this is the case. They did say that all the points of any member that left mid-spire were lost. The evidence I have indicates that this is indeed true.

Based on the information provided, the data observed and my experience programming I believe the algorithm used to assigning Spire points is simple counter increment routine that applies points earned from a completed encounter by each to a Fellowship's total. This is fine as long as the point from members that leave are not deducted and this activity is clearly documented in the Wiki. This is fully supported by the data I collected (We track FS Spire activity closely and I have built a comprehensive spreadsheet to enable me to determine what combinations are needed to reach Gold in a given week). I surmise, based on other threads, that a change was made after complaints that some Fellowships were earning more than 1575 points in a week because when members left, their points stayed behind leaving the Spire open to the same sort of abuse of the system by rotating members in and out of a Fellowship that was addressed in the FA rules change. Since the limiting factor in FS Spire play is that each member can only contribute a max of 63 points. I was told repeatedly buy support that the system deducts the points accrued by a member from the FS when they leave.

The effects of players, leaving and joining mid-Spire (and mid-tournament for that matter because I found nothing by speculation on that subject as well) need be properly documented, put into the Wiki and FAQs. Additionally, Senior Support should be aware of this and provide a consistent response with details for deviations of official FS points totals from a summation of individual points earned by members. For example: player A left on given date with X points, this was deducted. Player B joined on given date with x points These did not transfer to your FS, They earned z points.while a member and these were applied to the FS total. This clears any confusion. This is nothing like what I got from Senior Support, which simply stated repeatedly, "your points total is correct" and in one message stated that 7 members hadn't made it to the top of the Spire, while I could see that all but 6 did before that statement (which was a factor in my conclusion that a simple increment routine is used and individual score is reset when a player leaves a FS and additionally that the view presented to support is not the same as that presented to players.)

I suspect that the number of people to actually notice the anomalies, I've reported are virtually nil. I have over 40 years experience in Information Technology, on the Autism Spectrum and frequently end up discussing anomalies I find in the Enterprise applications I manage with product engineering because I notice things others miss and have an exceptional talent for noting anomalies, testing them for repeatability and documenting them in detail.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member

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CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
I have very good reason to believe that this is not correct. If this were truly the case. in our situation,we should have received surplus rather than a deficit a member left with more points than the member that joined during the Spire had when they joined.
No clue what the deficit issue was but what helga said is correct.
We have seen fellowships with thousands of points because of it.

But the novelty of that on most servers is gone, so I wish they would not change it.
For 1 who cares. there is 0 benefit in getting first place, and thats how it should be.

Who cares if you have gold with 1330 points or 3658 points.
everyone gets the same.

It would be a shame to limit players ability to switch guilds, or participate in the spire by locking them out.
if people want to be stupid things like getting 3658 spire points, let them be it does not harm anyone.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
No clue what the deficit issue was but what helga said is correct.
We have seen fellowships with thousands of points because of it.

But the novelty of that on most servers is gone, so I wish they would not change it.
For 1 who cares. there is 0 benefit in getting first place, and thats how it should be.

Who cares if you have gold with 1330 points or 3658 points.
everyone gets the same.

It would be a shame to limit players ability to switch guilds, or participate in the spire by locking them out.
if people want to be stupid things like getting 3658 spire points, let them be it does not harm anyone.
Cheating is cheating, just saying. It's one thing when something happens like this occasionally but week after week? If a company has a ToS that speaks of multi-accounting and then does absolutely nothing about it, then that is wrong. A company should not have rules they are not willing to enforce.
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
I have to agree with CrazyWizard. Right now, our window for switching fellowships is ridiculously narrow if:

We switch in between tourneys, which is a rule to which most fellowships adhere.
AND we also can't switch during Spire.

Then that leaves Australia's Sunday for switching. For North America half the time we spend asleep, same for Europe, so when can anyone except an Aussie switch?

Someone asked on Beta for more time in between, and we were told, iirc, that it would be passed on but don't expect anything to change.

So how then, can Spire be locked?

Perhaps more disturbing, is that several someones are treating their spare accounts like garbage. And I think that this is considered the dividing line between second cities and push accounts. We're told on the EN server that the cities must be played 'separately', so maybe y'all better start screen shooting some FS lists and reporting some bad actors.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
@Dew Spinner

Inno does not have a rule against this.
Having alts is not against any rules. Running an alt or 5 up the spire and then having them leave a FS is not against the rules.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
@Dew Spinner

Inno does not have a rule against this.
Having alts is not against any rules. Running an alt or 5 up the spire and then having them leave a FS is not against the rules.
I'm pretty sure alts have to be on separate worlds , not on the same world, so they wouldn't be able to hop in and out of the same FS every week and if people in the same household are playing then they are suppose to be fairly independent of each other, not hoping in an out of the same FS every week. @heyla can we get some confirmation of the rules on this an why 1 FS on Sinya Arda is scoring above 1575, week after week after week. I can understand that it is possible to lose a player and then immediately gain another, but every week? Come On.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Perhaps more disturbing, is that several someones are treating their spare accounts like garbage
Perspective matters. If a player took the time to craft spire alts for the good of their entire FS, that is not pushing. Is it?
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Perspective matters. If a player took the time to craft spire alts for the good of their entire FS, that is not pushing. Is it?
I believe it is, the rules, I believe, state that you can only have 1 account in a particular world, you may have more accounts but in different worlds. I may be wrong but I would like to see it and hear it from the mods, for absolute clarification.
 
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Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
But if they are being pushed out every time - then how it could it not?
What is the value of an alternate? If you consistently treat them as of little value then how can they command respect? The point is, they cannot. And I treat my alt the same as Lel's cities, and I scrap hard for respect.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
You can have as many accounts on the same server as you want, but they should not interact together in a way that is obviously beneficial to one account at the expense of the others. Jumping alt accounts in and out of a fellowship, just to push the point total to gold, so that their primary account in that fellowship gets the rewards is cheating, and that player, and all the account logging in from the same IP address to the same server, can be flagged and banned. Multiple people using the same IP address to play separate accounts on the same server can also trigger a false flag and ban if their activity triggers those flags meant to catch real cheaters.
 
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