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    Your Elvenar Team

squad size upgrades

DeletedUser11310

Guest
I have been advised to not use use the ones that are in a dead because that makes the enemy stronger but I keep losing anyway what's the good advice you can give me
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
We need to know if you are talking about having trouble in the tournaments or on the world map. Optional SS upgrades only help with battles on the world map. The reason to skip optional SS upgrades is to keep tournament costs low. Since most players complete way more encounters in tourneys each week than on the world map, it makes sense to skip them. Tournament squad sizes are a percentage of your regular squad size, so higher squad sizes means more troops to replace (ex: simple math, same fight: 10% loss at squad size of 10 is 1 unit; 10% loss at squad size of 100 is 10 units). If you cater tourneys, squad size is one of the multipliers for amount of goods needed; it will quickly become too expensive to cater if you take all optional SS upgrades.
If it's tourneys you're having issues with, is it all tourneys or just Scrolls and Dust (the 2 that are always expensive in troops)?
If it's primarily this just finished Dust tourney, know that right now even experienced fighters are having to call in the grief counselors for their very few surviving troops...
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
It depends upon whether the tournaments are more important to you or gaining provinces on your map. The squad size upgrades help you if you are exploring the map. They only hurt if you are in the tourneys.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
We need to know if you are talking about having trouble in the tournaments or on the world map. Optional SS upgrades only help with battles on the world map. The reason to skip optional SS upgrades is to keep tournament costs low. Since most players complete way more encounters in tourneys each week than on the world map, it makes sense to skip them. Tournament squad sizes are a percentage of your regular squad size, so higher squad sizes means more troops to replace (ex: simple math, same fight: 10% loss at squad size of 10 is 1 unit; 10% loss at squad size of 100 is 10 units). If you cater tourneys, squad size is one of the multipliers for amount of goods needed; it will quickly become too expensive to cater if you take all optional SS upgrades.
If it's tourneys you're having issues with, is it all tourneys or just Scrolls and Dust (the 2 that are always expensive in troops)?
If it's primarily this just finished Dust tourney, know that right now even experienced fighters are having to call in the grief counselors for their very few surviving troops...
More detailed than my answer ... what she said! :)
 

DeletedUser25520

Guest
I too like playing the tournaments. However only participated in two so far lol im pretty new to game. I am on the part were i unlock scouts for chapter three. I have been unlocking everything in the research tabs did i make a mistake? =( also don't i need to open up the world map to gain more tourney provinces? And if this is the case does this mean i should be negotiating them? Also, how would not taking the squad enlargements affect my abilities in spire? sorry just asking so i can plan accordingly.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
I too like playing the tournaments. However only participated in two so far lol im pretty new to game. I am on the part were i unlock scouts for chapter three. I have been unlocking everything in the research tabs did i make a mistake? =( also don't i need to open up the world map to gain more tourney provinces? And if this is the case does this mean i should be negotiating them? Also, how would not taking the squad enlargements affect my abilities in spire? sorry just asking so i can plan accordingly.
It's not a mistake to open everything. One of the best aspects of this game is that it can be played with a variety of strategies and preferences. Especially in the first 5 or six chapters, the squad size upgrades are at a dead-end point of the tech tree. If you choose not to unlock them, your tournament costs will remain lower, as Samidodamage said, as you progress through the game. If you love the fighing aspect of the game, and if you like to have your troops at full force, then unlocking all them won't have been a mistake by later chapters, it will just mean you will want to focus on ways to beef up your troops and improve your fighting skills. If you choose to stop unlocking them from this point on, you'll still get the benefits Samidodamage is talking about, it's not too late. Edit: Since tournament changes in 2021, this is no longer accurate.

In regards to the world map, as you open more provinces (by either letting your scouts fight or negotiate with goods), your ability to fight in more and more tournament-provinces will increase. You only have to open them once (by either fighting 8 encounters or negotiating). Once they are open, you'll be able to compete them in the tourneys each week...so Samidodamage is right to say that it's not a terrible thing if the cost of opening the province is a little higher by not upgrading your squad sizes...because the cost of winning these tournaments - over and over and over again - will be lower overall.

I'll leave the spire question to a more informed player here...so you can get the most accurate answer.
Hope that helps!
 
Last edited:

DeletedUser25520

Guest
It's not a mistake to open everything. One of the best aspects if this game is that it can be played with a variety of strategies and preferences. Especially in the first 5 or six chapters, the squad size upgrades are at a dead-end point of the tech tree. If you choose not to unlock them, your tournament costs will remain lower, as Samidodamage said, as you progress through the game. If you love the fighing aspect of the game, and if you like to have your troops at full force, then unlocking all them won't have been a mistake by later chapters, it will just mean you will want to focus on ways to beef up your troops and improve your fighting skills. If you choose to stop unlocking them from this point on, you'll still get the benefits Samidodamage is talking about, it's not too late.

In regards to the world map, as you open more provinces (by either letting your scouts fight or negotiate with goods), your ability to fight in more and more tournament-provinces will increase. You only have to open them once (by either fighting 8 encounters or negotiating). Once they are open, you'll be able to compete them in the tourneys each week...so Samidodamage is right to say that it's not a terrible thing if the cost of opening the province is a little higher by not upgrading your squad sizes...because the cost of winning these tournaments - over and over and over again - will be lower overall.

I'll leave the spire question to a more informed player here...so you can get the most accurate answer.
Hope that helps!
oh that is most helpful information! the only thing i have to ask for clarity on is what you mean by letting my scouts fight? which scouts do you refer to?
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
the only thing i have to ask for clarity on is what you mean by letting my scouts fight? which scouts do you refer to?
Oh, ya, I can see where my languaging would be confusing there...I just mean the scouts you use to unlock a new province in your world map.

It's a 2-step process...first you scout the province...this costs time and money. Then, once its scouted, you solve 8 encounters within that province to unlock it. For that you either negotiate with goods or fight.

It's troops who do the fighting but I guess in my imagination the scouts are the ones having to fight as they were sent there in the first place...hahaha. But you are right...the troops you train in your city do the fighting.
 

DeletedUser25520

Guest
Oh, ya, I can see where my languaging would be confusing there...I just mean the scouts you use to unlock a new province in your world map.

It's a 2-step process...first you scout the province...this costs time and money. Then, once its scouted, you solve 8 encounters within that province to unlock it. For that you either negotiate with goods or fight.

It's troops who do the fighting but I guess in my imagination the scouts are the ones having to fight as they were sent there in the first place...hahaha. But you are right...the troops you train in your city do the fighting.
thank you so much this information is most valuable especially since i am not a very capable fighter =)
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
@Taiyla
Try this link to a thread in the forums:
Combat 101
It's a simple formula to help you start learning the battle system. The troop types are the same whether the province is on the map or in the tournaments.

Squad Size is one of the things in the formula for the Spire as well. A player here on the forums is trying to gather enough data to determine how much or how little SS impacts the Spire. Here's a link to the thread he started that discusses Spire squad sizes and the things that increase them:
Spire Squad Size Data Needed
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I am towards the end of chapter five and only now am I starting to ignore the squad size upgrades. Since I love the tourneys, I'm willing to have the provinces cost more just one time, when I first open a province on my map, and from then on the tourneys will cost less in that province forever. Beyond this point, I won't take another upgrade unless I'm forced to do so.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I was about the same place you are now @Darielle when I started skipping them in my 1st city. Since I'm also extremely conservative in my world map scouting (try to stick to just enough to open the next ch) my map provinces have remained blue and green (very easy; easy). I'm sure it has helped keep catering costs for tourneys low-er than if I had continued to take them, but there's no way I'd do 4K points/tourney regularly if I had to cater a bunch in that city (early The Elvenar chapter).
To me, that's the advantage in my 2nd city. I did the 'negotiate the world map, fight the tourneys' approach there from the start and skipped all SS upgrades there that I could. I'm now in early Elementals, and I routinely do tourney round 5 (of usually 20-25 provinces) as cater-only because those costs are so low.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I was about the same place you are now @Darielle when I started skipping them in my 1st city. Since I'm also extremely conservative in my world map scouting (try to stick to just enough to open the next ch) my map provinces have remained blue and green (very easy; easy). I'm sure it has helped keep catering costs for tourneys low-er than if I had continued to take them, but there's no way I'd do 4K points/tourney regularly if I had to cater a bunch in that city (early The Elvenar chapter).
To me, that's the advantage in my 2nd city. I did the 'negotiate the world map, fight the tourneys' approach there from the start and skipped all SS upgrades there that I could. I'm now in early Elementals, and I routinely do tourney round 5 (of usually 20-25 provinces) as cater-only because those costs are so low.
That's good to know. If I start a second, I'll make sure to do that from the start.
 

DeletedUser25520

Guest
@Taiyla
Try this link to a thread in the forums:
Combat 101
It's a simple formula to help you start learning the battle system. The troop types are the same whether the province is on the map or in the tournaments.

Squad Size is one of the things in the formula for the Spire as well. A player here on the forums is trying to gather enough data to determine how much or how little SS impacts the Spire. Here's a link to the thread he started that discusses Spire squad sizes and the things that increase them:
Spire Squad Size Data Needed
oh wow thank you so much!!!
 

SunsetDanar

Well-Known Member
We need to know if you are talking about having trouble in the tournaments or on the world map. Optional SS upgrades only help with battles on the world map. The reason to skip optional SS upgrades is to keep tournament costs low. Since most players complete way more encounters in tourneys each week than on the world map, it makes sense to skip them. Tournament squad sizes are a percentage of your regular squad size, so higher squad sizes means more troops to replace (ex: simple math, same fight: 10% loss at squad size of 10 is 1 unit; 10% loss at squad size of 100 is 10 units). If you cater tourneys, squad size is one of the multipliers for amount of goods needed; it will quickly become too expensive to cater if you take all optional SS upgrades.
If it's tourneys you're having issues with, is it all tourneys or just Scrolls and Dust (the 2 that are always expensive in troops)?
If it's primarily this just finished Dust tourney, know that right now even experienced fighters are having to call in the grief counselors for their very few surviving troops...

I'd like to see a bit more on this. Doing them does seem to be helpful in Spire play which is different from what you suggest. Would like to see some real numbers in this regard rather than just opinion. Nothing against opinions but if you have one, you should be able to back it up with facts...
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I'd like to see a bit more on this.

Here's probably more numbers than you want based on the crowd-sourced reverse engineering of the Spire/Tourney formula (thank you @MinMax Gamer) :
Tournament/Spire Requirements
City Advancement Level Model
Spire Progression Model
Tournament Progression Model
In no way do I understand all of the info in the above links, lol! I followed it from when he started gathering the data and could absorb it in smaller doses as well as see the questions/answers that came about during the data gathering/formula development that he did. It was enough to convince me that none of the optional research techs (including optional SS upgrade techs) nor my regular Squad Size had any effect on the calculations used for either the Spire or Tourneys.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
It's not a mistake to open everything. One of the best aspects of this game is that it can be played with a variety of strategies and preferences. Especially in the first 5 or six chapters, the squad size upgrades are at a dead-end point of the tech tree. If you choose not to unlock them, your tournament costs will remain lower, as Samidodamage said, as you progress through the game. If you love the fighing aspect of the game, and if you like to have your troops at full force, then unlocking all them won't have been a mistake by later chapters, it will just mean you will want to focus on ways to beef up your troops and improve your fighting skills. If you choose to stop unlocking them from this point on, you'll still get the benefits Samidodamage is talking about, it's not too late.

In regards to the world map, as you open more provinces (by either letting your scouts fight or negotiate with goods), your ability to fight in more and more tournament-provinces will increase. You only have to open them once (by either fighting 8 encounters or negotiating). Once they are open, you'll be able to compete them in the tourneys each week...so Samidodamage is right to say that it's not a terrible thing if the cost of opening the province is a little higher by not upgrading your squad sizes...because the cost of winning these tournaments - over and over and over again - will be lower overall.

I'll leave the spire question to a more informed player here...so you can get the most accurate answer.
Hope that helps!
Squad Size Techs have no effect on Tournament and Spire difficulty formula anymore, so this is not accurate. Sorry, not trying to be rude, just don't want misleading info out there for new players.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Squad Size Techs have no effect on Tournament and Spire difficulty formula anymore, so this is not accurate.
Thanks for catching that these posts are over a year old, back from when those techs did have an effect on tourneys (they never had an effect on Spire). I didn't catch that when my post from over a year ago was quoted.
@SunsetDanar :My answer this year here and the current reverse engineered formula is correct data for Spire and the current tourney structure, but of course does not support the old tourney structure (Pre-Sept 2020).
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
Squad Size Techs have no effect on Tournament and Spire difficulty formula anymore, so this is not accurate. Sorry, not trying to be rude, just don't want misleading info out there for new players.
Good call Dew Spinner. My post was over a year old so definitely no longer accurate with the new changes. I will edit the original to cut down on confusion :)
 
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