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    Your Elvenar Team

Surpluses

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Some players have what appear to be huge surpluses of goods. "Appears" because nobody can know what the actual needs of the player might be and maybe, just maybe, they need 40,000,000 planks in stock. Not a problem if that's the case. And since I don't know any particular case well enough but my own, to know if they need that many planks, I have nothing to say in their case. However, in general, I can address the question of if surpluses -- what is NOT needed -- are good for the game.

Here's the thing. Over all the game uses X amount of any good a day. I have no idea how much that would be but it's a lot, no doubt. And the game produces X amount of any good in a day. In the long run, if there are surpluses that are not put back into the system via selling them off, we, the players are producing more goods than we need. If we weren't there wouldn't be any .... "holding back," -- I hate the word "hoarding" since it's derogatory, but it is what it is, in some ways -- ... so "hoarding" it will be -- the amount of goods we players have to produce would go down, overall. And that means we could use the space for other things and our cities would grow faster.

So here's my suggestion. Figure out what you actually need in storage, add about 20% for "comfort" and sell off the rest at a reduced rate...i.e. "dump" the surplus. This is a macroeconomic approach that will stimulate growth and, if everybody does it, make things move faster.

That's my recommendation. I know hardly anybody reads the forum but if each person were take this idea back to their fellowships and those on their servers they know, maybe it would work. A faster moving game means more player retention so it's to all our benefits.

AJ
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
I can honestly say that I have no idea how many of my boosted goods I "need". I can say that I continually produce a lot more than I use. I do two things to keep my inventory knocked down to the level I'm happy keeping. First, every time I post trades using my T1, T2, T3 inventory I make it 2 for 1. I get the non-boosted I need and hopefully help out my FS and neighbors. Second, I use "hoarded" T1, T2, T3 boosted to buy KP for research and events. That way my KP for AWs is not brought to a screeching halt every time a new chapter comes out.
 
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Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
So, you are suggesting that all players with massive surpluses throw down a bunch of super sweet three star trades that can then be picked up by all the cities that dont have massive surpluses, server wide?

In the long run, if there are surpluses that are not put back into the system via selling them off, we, the players are producing more goods than we need.

I cater Aj, I also top the spire and have a 5k tournament average. I am advancing very slowly through the game. My number 1 rule every week is that my goods production must exceed my demand. I am building up my own little hoard on purpose! I like piles of stuff! You cant have my stuff!





 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
So, you are suggesting that all players with massive surpluses throw down a bunch of super sweet three star trades that can then be picked up by all the cities that dont have massive surpluses, server wide?

I cater Aj, I also top the spire and have a 5k tournament average. I am advancing very slowly through the game. My number 1 rule every week is that my goods production must exceed my demand. I am building up my own little hoard on purpose! I like piles of stuff! You cant have my stuff!


Yep, that's what I'm suggesting. Turn loose all the surplus you have and as long as it's more than you need, it will do us all good.

I cater the Spire to the top too, and I cater all my provinces. I fight the tourney to 6000+ each week. So we are similar in our needs.

It's not "hoarding" if you need it or will need it. However, there comes a point where you can't envision every really needing it, right? To keep it then, is hoarding.


@Alram Here's my own story. I try to keep 2-3 million of each good on hand. Why? because over the last two years I find my storage stays at about that level. That means I'm using in various ways, what I'm taking in. Now the question is, "am I holding more than I need to hold?" If I look at the fluctuations in my holdings I find that they fluctuate between 400,000 and 3,000,000. If my target is 2 million, 20% of that is 400,000 and that's really my surplus (which is the lowest my goods go over time). So, I'm right on the suggested level of what I need +20%.

AJ
 
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Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
tumblr_nkos1vHjsu1qlqsnio2_500.gif
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
I hate the word "hoarding" since it's derogatory, but it is what it is, in some ways -- ... so "hoarding" it will be
Yeah...hoarding feels like the wrong word. I find it really odd that you think simply having more goods than other folks is "hoarding" and somehow problematic, but TAKING more goods from others via uneven trades is ok? So if you build up a hoard through advantageous trades, you're going to just...undo it all?
So here's my suggestion. Figure out what you actually need in storage, add about 20% for "comfort" and sell off the rest at a reduced rate...i.e. "dump" the surplus.
Here's the trouble: I can't actually know what I need. Inno keeps adding chapters, adding features, and generally changing things up so people can't truly predict future needs. As an example, I used to think my 250k (or whatever) orcs I had in storage was waaaaay more than I'd ever need on short notice. Then in the first few weeks of ch15 I literally ran out. I learned that lesson, and stockpiled orcs like crazy in between chapters. Suddenly at the end of ch18 I noticed that somehow I'm down a million orcs in a few weeks. I'm not sure where they went, but you know what? No biggie! I had the reserves to cover it until I can figure it out and adjust.

The thing is, extra resources make my city resilient. The next time my team is stuck right before the next tourney chest, I know I'll have goods to help us move forward. Or if Inno introduces something like the spire (which everybody said for a long time was waaaaay too expensive) I'll have resources to throw at it. I'm not hoarding, I'm just prepared.

And if you want a second reason, figuring out "what I actually need" sounds like a lot of math, and I'm not doing it. It's easier (and way more fun) to just say "eh, my numbers are bigger than they used to be, so I'm probably ok."
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
So here's my suggestion. Figure out what you actually need in storage, add about 20% for "comfort" and sell off the rest at a reduced rate...i.e. "dump" the surplus. This is a macroeconomic approach that will stimulate growth and, if everybody does it, make things move faster.
AJ
Here is what happens in practice: I pick up all of the trades I see in my FS: 0* and above. If I do a huge 3* balancing trade (Say 4 million scrolls for a million silk), someone picks that trade up and then starts placing 2* scrolls for silk trades.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I did not realize that it was other people's goods you were wanting passed around. Thanks for clarifying.

-Alram, aka just another hoarder

Interesting. You imply something is nefarious about my activietes when, as I noted, I do monitor what I take in/put out, and thus what I need. I then have repeatedly dumped the rest. In both my main and my alt account I do what I suggested, add 20% and then I keep my goods at that level. At one time I had about 45 million total in another account. I did, in fact, give all but about 18 million away. Ask my fellowship if they didn't each receive about 1.6 million in goods, each. Sigh.

This doesn't have to become personal, you know. Either the idea of giving out the surplus is a good one for the game or not. Even if I didn't do as I say should be done, that doen't change the right or wrong of the action. If a murderer says "don't murder" do you think he's therefore wrong? Misdirecting the conversation by ad hominem fallacies isn't helpful.

Yeah...hoarding feels like the wrong word. I find it really odd that you think simply having more goods than other folks is "hoarding" and somehow problematic, but TAKING more goods from others via uneven trades is ok? So if you build up a hoard through advantageous trades, you're going to just...undo it all?

Here's the trouble: I can't actually know what I need. Inno keeps adding chapters, adding features, and generally changing things up so people can't truly predict future needs. As an example, I used to think my 250k (or whatever) orcs I had in storage was waaaaay more than I'd ever need on short notice. Then in the first few weeks of ch15 I literally ran out. I learned that lesson, and stockpiled orcs like crazy in between chapters. Suddenly at the end of ch18 I noticed that somehow I'm down a million orcs in a few weeks. I'm not sure where they went, but you know what? No biggie! I had the reserves to cover it until I can figure it out and adjust.

The thing is, extra resources make my city resilient. The next time my team is stuck right before the next tourney chest, I know I'll have goods to help us move forward. Or if Inno introduces something like the spire (which everybody said for a long time was waaaaay too expensive) I'll have resources to throw at it. I'm not hoarding, I'm just prepared.

And if you want a second reason, figuring out "what I actually need" sounds like a lot of math, and I'm not doing it. It's easier (and way more fun) to just say "eh, my numbers are bigger than they used to be, so I'm probably ok."
(emphasis added)

1. "but TAKING more goods from others via uneven trades is ok?" Here you are assuming that if I OFFER something and you TAKE it, it's an uneven trade. Unless I twisted your arm you had the right to decide for yourself if it's even or better and to take it or not. You took it. You determined it was worth the trade. "Uneven" is just your belief, apparently, that all goods are worth the same ...i.e. what the devs say they are worth...and that therefore, everybody should get the same number of, silk for instance, as they offer for scrolls. You must be very, very angry when you try posting 100,000 scrolls for 100,000 silk and nobody is willing to take the trade. Everyone just bypasses it and takes the 100,000 scrolls for 90,000 silk. When you insist that others to take such a trade is'nt it you who are doing the "taking?" The train that says all goods are worth what the devs say they are worth left the building a long, long time ago. The irony is that you seem determined to keep everybody on that broken track.

2. Yeah, when I was small I thought 50,000 was really a great amount. A year later it was 250,000. Now it's 2M. But if I had 2M when I was small, even if I knew it was going to be needed in 3 years, would that have justified my sitting on it? Especially since by doing so I take it out of circulation and therefore force every (overall, not anyone in particular, mind you), to produce more?

3. The math just isn't that hard. And, in fact, you can almost do it without using your fingers. Here's the steps.

1) Look at what you have in stock.
2) Multiply by .2 (20%).
3) Watch what you have for a week, month or whatever to see how it fluctuates.
4) Note the lowest it goes. Is it more or less than the 20%?
5) If it's less than the 20% increase your holdings by the difference between the 20% and the amount it went down.
5) If it's more than 20% subtract the difference between the 20% and the amount it went down. That's what you can give away without hurting anything.

See? It's just not that hard and if you just watch it consistently you can make adjustments as you grow.

AJ
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Unless I twisted your arm you had the right to decide for yourself if it's even or better and to take it or not.
Cool. By that logic, I'm exercising my right to decide for myself to sit on a stockpile of goods. I find that retaining the ability to control the use of those goods, or their distribution, is far more valuable to me than reducing the production needs of every person who happens to be in my trade network. (I'm not saying I won't share. I just chose not to do so indiscriminately.)
The irony is that you seem determined to keep everybody on that broken track.
I'm not sure why you think I'm "determined" to do anything with regards to other players. I have shared my own views on trades, and my fellowship does have a "trade fairly" rule in the interests of gathering like-minded players, but outside of that I generally try to avoid telling other people what they should and shouldn't do. If I have, I am currently unaware I've done so and I apologize.
The math just isn't that hard. And, in fact, you can almost do it without using your fingers. Here's the steps.

1) Look at what you have in stock.
2) ...

[blah blah math blah blah]

...See? It's just not that hard and if you just watch it consistently you can make adjustments as you grow.
Yeah, no. That just crossed my "fun" line.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Cool. By that logic, I'm exercising my right to decide for myself to sit on a stockpile of goods. I find that retaining the ability to control the use of those goods, or their distribution, is far more valuable to me than reducing the production needs of every person who happens to be in my trade network. (I'm not saying I won't share. I just chose not to do so indiscriminately.)

I'm not sure why you think I'm "determined" to do anything with regards to other players. I have shared my own views on trades, and my fellowship does have a "trade fairly" rule in the interests of gathering like-minded players, but outside of that I generally try to avoid telling other people what they should and shouldn't do. If I have, I am currently unaware I've done so and I apologize.

Yeah, no. That just crossed my "fun" line.

Yeah! A victory! You are exercising your "right to decide" for yourself! And that's all I've asked. Decide for yourself. How about letting everybody decide for themselves? How about no rules against cross-tier trades? or against 0 or 1 star trades?

You are here. You are making an argument about my post. Why if you haven't determined my post was wrong in some fashion or other? And if you keep arguing I'd call that "determined."

Of course you have gathered with others of a like mind. But if they are of a like mind, why do you need the rules? And are there punishments for breaking the rules? The thing is, you only make rules when people are tempted to break the rules. If everybody believes as you do, that their should never (or seldom) be cross-tier trades or 0, or 1 start trades, then you don't need the rules at all.

But of course you have the rules. You have them because, along the way, somebody thought differently. Somebody put up a, horror of horrors...cross tier trade! And, worse, somebody took it! Now you have lost control. People are actually valuing their goods independently of your evaluation! Oh, wait, they are "deciding for themselves!" Yikes! Can't have that, now can we? I know, let's gather "like minded" people together, and make some rules! Rules make everybody believe the same thing, right? Can't have them "deciding for themselves" about such an important thing as what their goods are worth!

As for the unwillingness to actually do the math, I chuckle. It's so easy I do believe even you could do it! You think it's "not fun?" So how do you figure out what troops to make? You look at what you have and if you don't have enough, you make some, right? But wait, that's math! Sigh. The game is full of math and even if it's just estimating (as it usually is and as the method described above is), you do it all the time. Too bad you aren't having a good time in this game, all that math!

AJ
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
AJ, that post is so dramatic it's almost not worth responding to because I don't think you're taking my points seriously. But I will, and then I'm out.
How about letting everybody decide for themselves?
Absolutely. Everyone can exercise their own right to decide. But at some point, there's a conflict. If what you're doing bothers me, then what? I have to simply tolerate whatever you decide, because you decided to do it?

It goes both ways. I can decide to shield myself from your actions. I'm not trying to control other people's decisions. I'm merely setting boundaries about what I will and will not accept where I have the ability to do that.
Rules make everybody believe the same thing, right? Can't have them "deciding for themselves" about such an important thing as what their goods are worth!
Of course rules don't make everyone believe the same thing. They simply allow folks to self- select in and out of groups they'll fit with. Anyone who doesn't like the rules of a particular group should absolutely make their own decisions about what they value and where the ability to trade freely ranks among other group benefits and expectations. There are many, many people who have changed groups on US4 without applying to mine; I can only assume that at least some of them don't like what we're offering. That's good, because then they can find a place that suits them, and we can find a player who suits us. Sounds like win/win to me.
It's so easy I do believe even you could do it!
I do slightly resent the implication that I can't handle simple math. Not enjoying a task and wanting to limit its presence in my leisure activities do not in any way reflect on my capacity.

And on that note...good day to you. :)
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
pppppp , hording resources is just part of proper planning.
It also helps out with FS flow of goods, and who really wants
to slog thru Elvenar.... constantly running outta stuff....

Get off the paycheck to paycheck circle of need'n goods,
start hording today...
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
It goes both ways. I can decide to shield myself from your actions. I'm not trying to control other people's decisions. I'm merely setting boundaries about what I will and will not accept where I have the ability to do that.
Absolutely yes. Thank you @Kekune
We are mostly adults here so no one needs to be condenscending.
I believe we are able to chose how much we care to accumulate without interference.
If my spelling is incorrect.. oh well.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Unless someone is going at lightning speed through the chapters, the normal goods just pile up once you are a ways into sentient goods, generally around chapter 14, partly because of decay.

My main thing is to try and always keep all my goods within a tier balanced, so I always make my boosted good and take non-boosted goods in trade when I see them. And while my chapter 18 city has around 15+ million of each good, I keep this going, with one main thought. What if I decided to go for as big a tournament score as I could? That would take a ton of goods, as I would not be able to fight as far as I could cater. I could easily burn up all those goods in one giant push, so I keep stockpiling, just in case. I have also been playing this city for 5 years, so plenty of time to stockpile.

Compare that to my Beta city, where I have been trying to complete chapters as quickly as I can. It is right at the end of chapter 14 after about 16 months, and I barely have 2 million in any of the normal goods. That city is underpowered enough that I still mix fighting and catering, so those numbers are not a safe stockpile, or surplus, at all. And I try to keep them all balanced there too, so I am always taking trades or posting trades.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Unless someone is going at lightning speed through the chapters, the normal goods just pile up once you are a ways into sentient goods, generally around chapter 14, partly because of decay.

My main thing is to try and always keep all my goods within a tier balanced, so I always make my boosted good and take non-boosted goods in trade when I see them. And while my chapter 18 city has around 15+ million of each good, I keep this going, with one main thought. What if I decided to go for as big a tournament score as I could? That would take a ton of goods, as I would not be able to fight as far as I could cater. I could easily burn up all those goods in one giant push, so I keep stockpiling, just in case. I have also been playing this city for 5 years, so plenty of time to stockpile.

Compare that to my Beta city, where I have been trying to complete chapters as quickly as I can. It is right at the end of chapter 14 after about 16 months, and I barely have 2 million in any of the normal goods. That city is underpowered enough that I still mix fighting and catering, so those numbers are not a safe stockpile, or surplus, at all. And I try to keep them all balanced there too, so I am always taking trades or posting trades.
I think the biggest factor driving the stockpiling is that you never know what INNO is going to pull next and it is probably better to be prepared then get caught short handed, so I don't see stockpiling ever going away. A player in my FS has 100 million of every good except scrolls which she refuses to tell us how big that stockpile has become! LOL
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Each person decides what the proper buffer is. I'm all for that. Suggesting that a 20% buffer is enough is also an opinion. I'm not sure why the idea has so much resistance since no one is telling anyone what they must do, but only suggesting what they might like to do to make the game better for everyone.

As for condescending? Well, I do get that but when a person starts forcefully saying he/she doesn't want to do the math, I get a little upset about the statement. They do the math all the time and pretending it's just too much work is, in my opinion, being disingenuous in order to make a rhetorical point. Still, if I overstepped the bounds of decency, I'm sorry. Sometimes I too get a bit irate. (Anybody surprised at that? LOL)

The thing is, in this forum we have had some strong arguments, and not always nice, over the issue of who get to decide what a trade is worth. If everyone just refrained from judging others for what the perceive as "rip off" trades and allow each of us to trade as we wouldn't have these conflicts.

As far as a person not liking how I play the game and getting irate about it I too think we are adults and thus should, I think, be able to just keep our mouths shut over something as personal as how much I value my goods to be. My beef isn't so much that some of you don't like some trades, it's that you decide you are going to publicly declare this or that type of trade a "rip off" as if you are, and should be, the sole determiner of what my goods, and everybody else's are worth. Just stop pretending to be the god of values and I'll stop being the devil's advocate.

In addition, yeah, gather all you want in restricted fellowships and have whatever rules you want. I would suggest that some of the rules actually hurt the game but I would also defend your right to have them for yourself and your fellowship. But if you bring them up by condemning others for breaking your rules, I'll still be here pointing out the obvious -- that they are your rules for your fellowship and thus, trying to socially impose them on others through declaring their trades to be "unfair," a "rip off" or anything else, isn't allowing others the freedom to play their style. When many of those wanting such rules openly condemn those not even in their fellowships as if the rules for their fellowships are, or should be, universal, I get a bit irate.

I'm for freedom of game play. Freedom to value your city and its goods as you feel. Freedom to post trades as you want to post them. Freedom to stock pile as much as you like, or as little. My suggestion is only a suggestion. Nobody is making a rule that you can only "hoard" so much! And I'm not implying you are somehow a nefarious character if you do stock pile.

AJ
 
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