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    Your Elvenar Team

Survey Questions?

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Are you successful though? Do you find that your posts are persuading people specifically because they are so verbose? If not, and I don't see much evidence they are, perhaps a compromise like trimming it just a bit may help you.
Honestly, I've taken to the habit of skipping your posts and just reading @Ashrem's multi-quote point-by-point rebuttals since his 5-12 word snippets of your paragraphs are summing up your points well enough imo.

As for "success" I think I'm probably about as successful as one can be. I'm quite convinced the level of success for the grenade theory of persuasion is close to 0. I have yet to hear of anyone changing their mind on anything because of a clever come-back. It would be sad if that were all it was to take.

I view persuasion as a campaign, not a battle. Battles are short and sometimes decisive, but they seldom, by themselves, win a war.

AND, while I'm at it, I also view discussions as methods of exploration. Thus, I'm often not out to win, but to put the best face on a particular view and see who can rip the mask off. Sometimes I get more persuaded of my view, sometimes not, but it certainly does stimulate conversation...if people don't want to have a lazy conversation of course.

It's difficult to take seriously a critique of my posts from a reader who has "taken to the habit of skipping" them. ;) But what I try to do is to get past the statement/rebuttal/restatement with explanation/rebuttal of restatement with explanation and further explanation cycle. It too gets tedious.

And as for his accuracy, you can't know that unless you have read my posts, now can you?

I disagree. There may be ways to shorten it without the loss of information. Suppose I wished to make points A, B, and C. If I could break B down into B1 and B2 and find D to express A and B1 and E to express B2 and C then D and E is shorter than A, B, and C without either of them being redundant. Mathematics has many instances where the necessary information can be made more succinct.

As the head an IT company for nearly 30 years I've written a bunch of manuals and texts. And you are right about technical writing. Because the subject is usually science and mathematical based it is more concrete. Therefore, there are fewer opinions of what 2+2 might equal. Take, for instance, the "right way" to link and embed a table from Excel to PowerPoint. I can tell you that and do it in about 1 paragraph. But how does one define the "right way" to persuade a person?

I am employed as a technical writer. My task is often to convey a great deal of information as concisely as possible. I can assure you that the normal response of well-educated and intelligent, but busy, people is to respond exactly as Soggy suggests.

The first rule of writing is to know your audience. The problem isn't (usually) that people can't understand what you write. It's that you've chosen the wrong form of communication for your audience and your medium. When your words, style, length, etc. don't match your audience's needs, they won't read it. And as has already been said, surely that detracts from the points you want to make?

See the note on technical writing above. But if people are playing this game are they really that busy?

Of all that has been said, you hit the probably cause of the "problem," if it is one. Aristotle said that rhetoric is the about finding the available means of persuasion. He suggested that there are several possible lines of argument in any question but that one needed to focus on the audience and moving that audience to where one wants the to go -- implying that the means of persuading one audience versus another might be different. And in that we come to an agreement. The audience here is used to short, pithy, hard hitting, memes and mantras and to a quick "debate fix." A "hit hard and move on" type of style. That's what they are used to because that is the current rhetorical style of the West. It hasn't always been that way, but it is now. I could go on to discuss the history of rhetoric in the West and how we got to our current state, but I won't lest Soggy really go ballistic...LOL. The results of that change in rhetoric is the production of camps where everybody sits behind a berg of self-defense rallying everybody on their side to lob meme and mantra bombs at the other side as if a grenade would persuade anybody. It's not about persuasion in today's climate, it's about winning a battle and rallying your side with the pithiness of your remarks. In the end it's a dismal failure and sad, too.

Perhaps all my verbiage is nothing more than an unintentional challenge to the current style of rhetoric with it's divisiveness and anger. Maybe it's just I'm engaged in the work of civil discussion rather than getting my side to win or lose. And maybe I'm just a writer in search of an audience. And I suspect, there are more here willing to do the hard work of reading more than mantra's than you might think.

AJ
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
I just glazed over.
If any post is more than 2-3 paragraphs I may skim it but surely don't read it for any real value.
My opinion is if it's too long to read then your not getting your point across at all. Often I don't have time.
Editing is easy.
The audience here is used to short, pithy, hard hitting, memes and mantras and to a quick "debate fix." A "hit hard and move on" type of style.
Nothing wrong with short and pithy in certain situations.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Yep, but it's interesting to note that the TOS are sometimes not enforceable if the terms are not within the bounds of what would be expected. In one case the signer of the agreement didn't read the agreement. Later it was determined the issuer of the TOS knew the vast majority of people wouldn't actually read it and thus, the terms were not enforceable! The US courts said that if you know the signers aren't going to read it, and you make no provision to insure that unusual terms aren't brought to the notice of the signer, those unusual provisions (read "unexpected" for "unusual{) aren't enforceable. The same thing occurs when they shove a contract in your face and expect you to read the whole thing while they stand there watching. The courts have made that sort of thing also subject to general expectations. It's one of the reasons that when you rent a car they make you initial certain items while the point out what those items mean. That's making what you might not expect to be in the contract explicit and getting your initials on that part makes it so yo can't argue that you didn't expect and agree to it.

Terms of Service have to abide by reasonable and expected standards and, according to American courts, be a reasonable trade between the parties. The courts can, and have, thrown out contracts that favored one party over the other even when both parties initially agreed to the terms. The question in the current discussion would be: to what degree do the players understand and accept the idea of what they are purchasing can be "nerfed?" I suspect the courts would side with Inno, but it really depends on the exact nature of the case.

AJ
Well, I,, for one like reading @ajqtrz longer posts. I much prefer in depth commentary over sound bite.
I think there's room for a difference between sound bytes and a response to (the terms of service can say they change the rules) that introduces whether or not a ToS might or might not be enforceable over unusual terms (which changing the rules isn't) and adding another example of someone shoving a contract in your face and waiting for you to sign it and auto rental places making you initial certain points, and making what you might not expect to be in the contract explicit. And then a second paragraph about reasonable expected standards that finally finishes with "I suspect the courts would side with Inno" only goes on to say it depends on the nature of the case, even though the nature of the case is not an unknown. It's a standard gaming ToS that says they can change the rules for reasons of balance.

Everything in both of those paragraphs is true. None of it is relevant to the discussion necessary.
 
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mucksterme

Oh Wise One
as far as long posts go i also tend to just scan past them. i never liked reading text books when i had to and i am sure as shootin' not going to start reading them now for a dang game. speaking of long, as i write this i am listening to don mclean say goodbye to miss amaerican pie. great song but that is beside the point. the point i wanted to make was when i have a lot to say i try to be as concise as possible. and i try to break it into paragraphs separated by spaces so each point stands out. oh dang the levy was dry, that had to be a heart breaker. now then, i will not attach aj personally. he is knowledgeable and tries to be helpful but holy cow aj not everyone needs so much detail. oh man, now i went right into bohemian rhapsody. youtube is on a roll today. but see now, that is also a long song but freddie and the boys ( not to be confused with freddy and the dreamers ) managed to keep your interest through the whole thing. try to be more like freddie folks. well, i mean except for the aids, stay away from that. and also the teeth. i know he was british but zut alors you could of have come over here and found a dentist freddie. i swear to all the gods it wouldn't have ruined your voice. and why am i talking to a dead man like he can reply? anyway as i was saying. another problem with long posts is the author tends to get side tracked and go into irrelevant subject. try to keep from doing that please. and while we are talking about things you should be careful. what is the deal with some of you guys' grammar? i swear every time i read something like "i seen there wonders is all maxed up" i want to crawl through the computer screen and throttle someone. like that creepy ring girl *shudder*.by the way, i just cannot watch horror movies much anymore. must be an age thing but i'd rather a chick flick. like 'love actually'. have you guys seen that? i love that movie. but back to the point. except i just realized stairway to heaven is on now. it is like youtube is giving me long classic rocks songs from my misspent you. i swear if inna godda da vida starts playing i'll know there's witchcraft involved. nope, it is under pressure. queen with david bowie. holy moley was there anybody better than bowie ? :'( anyway i should wrap this up before it gets long and rambling. i sometimes have a tendency that way. so let me just repeat my original thought. stay healthy folks.
peace.

edit
added: 4 non blondes ''what's up'' love this song * i pray every single day for a revolution*
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
[QUOTE="ajqtrz,

Worse than that though, are the readers who's "eyes glaze over" in viewing a "wall of text" because they, quite obviously, have never been trained to actually think critically -- which is, by definition more time-consuming than just reacting.

AJ
[/QUOTE]
Really?I have to say, I am insulted. I actually recalled a question that no one else had remembered, but I politely started reading other posts only to find a heated argument that had little to do with Soggy's original topic. By the time I had read 4 or 5 posts my recall was gone. And this has to do with health issues, on my part, which cannot be remedied, so I really don't appreciate the implication, here.

SoggyShorts of all people gives concise thoughtful feedback and certainly ought to have been consulted. He asked us, as members of the community, what was asked.

I've nothing more to say that would not gain me penalty points.

Lel
 

Deleted User - 4684565

Guest
Don't mean to be sarcastic but Inno you need to step it up a few notches
Need to be more like BLIZZARD GAMING give players the option of PVP like World of Warcraft instead of fighting with non real characters
C G give players that option
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I'll answer the responses in another thread I'll create because Ashrem, and others are right, this subject is off topic. I'm partly responsible for that and I apologize to the OP.

AJ
 

Vigali

Active Member
I have been gaming for about 30 years now -- from tabletop RPGs to text-based MUDs, console gaming, PC gaming, and now mobile gaming. In that 30 years of experience, every single game I've ever played (where change isn't technically impossible) has changed over time. Heraclitus' adage that 'the only constant in life is change' has proven to be particularly true for gaming.

As a result of that experience, there is never a scenario where I play a game and I expect any part of it to persist in perpetuity. In fact, I would argue that game designers' efforts to maintain continuity for players (and their general aversion to nerfing beloved features) often backfire spectacularly and create imbalances that threaten their games far more than a couple nerfs ever would.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
I have decided to chime in again with some brilliant insight that is concise and astounding:

E = MC squared..

Come little lad, come little lass... Your docile creed recite. We know that Energy equals mass by the square of the speed of light.... -Morris Bishop
 

Silver Lady

Well-Known Member
give players the option of PVP like World of Warcraft instead of fighting with non real characters
A lot of us like this game precisely because it is not PvP. That gives a totally different vibe - it's not just something else to do.

I too play this game precisely because it’s not PvP. There are enough games out there, including FoE, that are PvP if that’s the type of game you want to play. :)
 
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