the battles seem so unfair

[DeletedUser688]

its like, every battle it seems to position my troops so the enemy always gets to strike first.
I usally get the first turn and my guys are never close enough to hit the enemy first. but of course, if I stay put or move forward, the enemy somehow is able to hit me first. so all I can do is try to move my guys back a space, so the enemy can't strike first...

and then what to the enemies do? the inch forward to just 1 space outside of my guys reach, and then the turn goes over to me, I can't back away any further because i'm already pinned against the edge of the battlefiels so all I can do is charge forward and then get surrounded by the enemies.

so like...I always have to have that 1 or 2 quads of "expendable" bladedancers(only expendable because the 2 hours to train a full squads is still the fastest training time I have)
to soak up the damage so my archers have time to position themselves.
meanwhile, 60% of the different enemy types seem to have a bonus to defend againts archers, while ALL melee units, and most ranged units seem to also have either a bonus to attack archers, or their attacks are so strong by default, they don't need a bonus as they can still kill or cripple an archer unit in 1 hit.

and yes, elves get treants, but the treants are sitting ducks to anything other than dogs, and their low initiative means they don't even draw attacks toward them. enemies will priotize archers over treants, unlike the blade dancers which seem to taunt the enemies, and their slow speed means they can't close in to hit the enemies right away, and they can't even position themselves in front of the archer to create any sort of "phalanx " to protect them

but blade dancers don't make good meatshields because they die easily as well. not as fast as archers, but it seems that blade dancers are supposed to move in and strike first to be effective but it's impossible to do that.

I have not gotten golems yet, but they look like they have combined the worst aspects of both treants and archers. golems are supposed to be the elves' "heavy ranged" unit. and yet they only get +20% to attack heavy melee and +40% ranged resistance while the cannoneers get +80% and much longer range.
and then I look at the enemy golems, and the enemy golems have the same bonuses as my golems...only doubled

I had a squad of 72 archers killed in 1 hit by 16 canonneers. 72 blade dancers get hit by the 16 canonneers and lose 35 guys. then I manage to hit it with archers and bring it down to 6 guys and it shoots my blade dancers again and still kills 28 of them (what? they lose 60% of their guys but only lose 10% of their attack power?!)

now the sorceressessess seem awesome, but they are still 1750 points away. the mages get bonuses to attack melee and bonuses to defend against both types of ranged and they can debuff the attacks which sounds awesome..but again, mine have +40% attack and +60% defense while the computer mages get +60% attack and +80% defense

Am I just playing the game wrong? do I have to wait until ALL the research is complete? do I have to wait until endgame unlock every last research just to be able to complete the 5th and 6th rings? what are the 7th and 8th rings like then?

 

[DeletedUser688]

so basically, it's impossible to win a battle without losses. I always take heavy casualties after every fight. so it's like ..train guys for 12 hours. do 2 fights, lose most of them.
train guys for 12 hours again.
lather , rinse, repeat.

 

[DeletedUser]

I could not have said it any better, those are my exact thoughts of doing battle.

 

[DeletedUser]

I agree with most of what you said. The battle is indeed very challenging and gets boring really quickly... Especially as you are now in the most difficult era according to my experience. With sorceresses, the battle will be much easier- I now use sword dancers only as cannon fodders, and I don't use archers at all, so treants can be very good tanks.

At your stage, I tried to avoid fighting steel or silk provinces because of the cannoneers. Wait until you have bigger squad size.

Elixir and magic dust provinces have mages so I don't fight those even after I have sorceresses upgraded because of the special effect of the mage (which is making the target take more damage, different from sorceress's special effect which is making the target deal less damage). Fortunately I have magic dust and scrolls boosts so I can negotiate away most magic dust provinces.

The rest 5 types of provinces are less painful to fight I think. I could win most encounters with a moderate loss- by that I mean losses less than 2 squads. The crystal provinces are especially easy because of the treants.

Some tips: get into the battlefield with one squad of sword dancers and surrender immediately after you figure out the best position of your real army; Optimize the unit combinations according to enemy units; Kite treants and swamp monsters; Use the terrain to kite knights; cut the map with tank units whenever possible to protect ranged units- again this is especially useful when you fight with the treant and sorceress combination.

Golem is indeed useless, even after the upgrade.

Last and most important, join an active fellowship and trade so you can negotiate.

 

[DeletedUser594]

Not sure how much you already know so please forgive me if what I share is too basic. When I go into battle I first scout the field by sending a sword dancer in to scout. I can see the terrain, estimate my opponents range and decide where to best place my troops so that I can get first attack or get out of range and set up a defense. Then I retreat- no damage taken. Again, forgive me, if this is stuff you know--but you determine which hex, position 1-5 you set up each troop based on the order you pick them. 1st pick gets center then it's #2 above, #3 below, #4 above, #5, below--
so if you choose in this order: 1.sword dancer 2.archer 3. treant 4.golum 5. sorcerress they will show up on the field like this:
4.golum
2.archer
1.sword start with one then it's even#'s up and odd down
3.treant
5. sorceress

You know your opponents set up either by scouting as I mentioned or the same counting method.
Since you know each troops initiative you have an idea of who can get where before the melee gets rockin. You can gain a tremendous advantage with placement and such, but as the map opens up you will simply get overpowered until you get another troop size upgrade. And as to the cannoneers...elves are doomed against high level cannon until the sorcerress (at least i hope she will help). Humans have a much easier time with them bcs of the hounds.
Here is a battle guide that explains all of what I said with pics and more info:
Battle primer: https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/encounters-guide.488/

that along with the wiki page that has troop stats gives you the best shot you have at minimizing losses:
Elvenar Wiki: https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
Hope this helps- happy hunting

 

[DeletedUser688]

@varron

no need to ask for forgiveness.
your info is very helpful.

I already knew most of that but perhaps someone else reading it might benefit.

the part about where it puts your guys is very helpful, because I was confused as to where it puts them and like, i'd do one and send in 3 treants and 2 archers and kept having to retreat and do them in a different order, because I was mostly guessing.

it's really frustrating when you have them in the wrong order and they get in each others way and you can;t move your squads because the other squads are blocking them.

so I guess the 5th ring...i'm not meant to do it right now?
I just got archers II and my squad size is 72.
i'm really close to getting golems

would anyone care to give advice on golems? are they any good? what's a good strategy with them?


as for the canoneers, I can beat the battles in the 5th ring, but i always take heavy losses doing so. so, i'm making progress it's just really really slow.
I have a total of 52 provinces conquered, need need to reach 57 for the next land expansion.

I suspect the sorceressess will be a good troops, but i'm still 1700 away...

 

[DeletedUser511]

Yeah you seem to eat up your army way faster then training them.

 

[DeletedUser688]

I suspect, this is by design, it's like the "energy system" in other freemium games. they give you 5 minutes worth of energy to play with then you have to wait 6 hours for it to refill...


also probaly like this to frustrate people to the point that they will buy diamonds to speed up troop training and refresh their squads after a fight...it's borderline extortion...only optional

 

[DeletedUser749]

@varron

no need to ask for forgiveness.
your info is very helpful.

I already knew most of that but perhaps someone else reading it might benefit.

the part about where it puts your guys is very helpful, because I was confused as to where it puts them and like, i'd do one and send in 3 treants and 2 archers and kept having to retreat and do them in a different order, because I was mostly guessing.

it's really frustrating when you have them in the wrong order and they get in each others way and you can;t move your squads because the other squads are blocking them.

so I guess the 5th ring...i'm not meant to do it right now?
I just got archers II and my squad size is 72.
i'm really close to getting golems

would anyone care to give advice on golems? are they any good? what's a good strategy with them?


as for the canoneers, I can beat the battles in the 5th ring, but i always take heavy losses doing so. so, i'm making progress it's just really really slow.
I have a total of 52 provinces conquered, need need to reach 57 for the next land expansion.

I suspect the sorceressess will be a good troops, but i'm still 1700 away...

Nigiri already pointed out most of everything there is to know.
On the 5th ring I can do around 2-4 battles in each of the "easy" provinces nigiri hinted (scrolls, marble, crystal, gems, planks) With 1-2 sword dancer II and 3-4 archer groups without losing more than 2 groups. Normally around 1 group of sword dancers is lost (about 1 hours training).
Basically these province types should have no mages or cannoneers, both of which prevent you from first-hitting.

Step 1: Test the terrain!

* Can you get off a good first hit?
* Will waiting a turn or moving into position let you get good control of the fight?
* Generally I try out the first turn too, making sure to have no troops in range of the enemy to see how the AI will move depending on where I put my sword dancers - tedious and boring, but gives info for countering the AI.
* Feel free to hit the enemy with your archers to make sure roughly how many of each unit you can expect to kill, as long as you don't let them get turn 2.​

Step 2: Surrender! No losses, lots of information gained.
Step 3: Will you lose too much?

Yes -> New Encounter, back to step 1
No -> Position your men according to your intel and be done with it!​

Particularly bandit-heavy/few ranged/regular melee heavy encounters are what I go for, but terrain can turn most battles awful or excellent.
Whatever is terrible I negotiate. I guess you are on the era 3 quest-rotation now so I can't say if you have some relevant ones for helping you maintain your ressources. Being in an active fellowship with people who trade much helps a lot in keeping negotiating possible.

​

 

[DeletedUser511]

I still say if you lose the ones you killed should stay dead for a little while.

 

[DeletedUser749]

I still say if you lose the ones you killed should stay dead for a little while.

Would be nice, but they'd need to think up some way to prevent abuse. Otherwise you would never lose a soldier in battle - just losing over and over after doing your first hit till there is no enemies

 

[DeletedUser511]

Umm this thread talks about people not getting the first hit now you are saying they will hit and leave? I didnt mean surrender! I mean when you lose completely. Wow!

 

[DeletedUser]

And there's your anti-abuse mechanic right there. Enemies you kill should only stay dead if you actually lose all of your troops in battle. Or maybe, if you surrender after losing half your troops then half the ones you killed would stay dead.

 

[DeletedUser]

Back O/T, there's definitely an expansion barrier that doesn't get cleared until you research sorceress and squad size upgrades. I researched that whole line of tech from Treant Promotion to Squad Upgrade 9 without fighting one battle, to make sure I had secured the advantage. Things are still slow going at a distance of 7 map hexes, but much better than before. I measure my losses by the diamond cost the game wants me to pay to resurrect my dead troops and it's usually 300-500.

 

[DeletedUser688]

On the 5th ring I can do around 2-4 battles in each of the "easy" provinces nigiri hinted (scrolls, marble, crystal, gems, planks) With 1-2 sword dancer II and 3-4 archer groups without losing more than 2 groups. Normally around 1 group of sword dancers is lost (about 1 hours training).
Basically these province types should have no mages or cannoneers, both of which prevent you from first-hitting.

​

this is what I mean...if you are losing 1-2 squads in every battle, that's like 3-4 hours of training.
I dunno, my squad size is 72 and i can queue 36 per slot in my barracks. 144 blade dancers take me 3 hours, so if I'm losing 2 squads in every battle, thats 3 hours lost.
144 archer II, or 12 treants takes me 4 hours to train. if I lose squads of those...the treants, even against orcs and dogs, i typically lose about half of a squad in each battle, it's acceptable but i've almost cleared the whole 5th ring and the battles...

so I guess by "heavy losses" my definition of that was losing 2 squads per fight...if that's how it is for everyone

 

[DeletedUser749]

this is what I mean...if you are losing 1-2 squads in every battle, that's like 3-4 hours of training.
I dunno, my squad size is 72 and i can queue 36 per slot in my barracks. 144 blade dancers take me 3 hours, so if I'm losing 2 squads in every battle, thats 3 hours lost.
144 archer II, or 12 treants takes me 4 hours to train. if I lose squads of those...the treants, even against orcs and dogs, i typically lose about half of a squad in each battle, it's acceptable but i've almost cleared the whole 5th ring and the battles...

so I guess by "heavy losses" my definition of that was losing 2 squads per fight...if that's how it is for everyone

On the contrary I'm limited to 48 size groups, and can train 13x4 in the barracks. the 48 would take little more than an hour to replace (1 hr is 39).
So considering you have +50% squadsize and better rank archers you ought to be able to win SOME fights with much fewer casualties I should think . Avoid the harder ones, and negotiate through those.

 

[DeletedUser688]

okay before reading on, understand i have read your responses,. I know which fights are "easy" and i've done all those lol.
I have done almost all the encounters in the 5th ring, but i have like 8 troublesome provinces left.
the advice on negotiating is good, I bribed my way through most of the 4th ring because I was just producing goods way faster than i could train troops, but the 5th ring is demanding like 900 tier 2 goods per encounter and that's just too much...

I only have elixir, marble, crystal and steel provinces left.

maybe i'm writing off the golems before I even used them yet.
the golems might be just what i need for the knights and canoneers provinces.

well here's an example of what i'm seeing on my map...

there are just random pickings:
elixir province

encounter #1
13 necromancer
13 necromancer
8 golem II
8 golem II
4 treant
4 treant

encounter #2
18 necromancer
12 golem II
6 treant II
12 treant

now these I could possibly do with blade dancers and archers but they seem stacked to screw the first 4 troops that elves have.
the trants and the mage kill blade dancers. the golems kill treants and archers, the mage is resistant to archers.
and treants will never get close enough to do anything




next example

marble province

encounter 1
15 steinling (looks like golem but gets +80% to damage treants)
15 steinling
10 golem II (can kill a squad of 72 archer II in 1 hit)
60 orcs
60 orcs


encounter 2

54 cerberus
54 cerberus
54 orcs
13 stenling
13 steinling
9 golem II
9 golem II


I need to send in treants to kill the dogs but they will get slaughtered by the steinlings and golem II.
I can't send in archers because the dogs and golems will slaughter them.
that leaves blade dancers?



steel province

encounter 1
20 knights
20 knights
83 bandits (crossbowmen)
13 canoneers

encounter 2
17 knights
17 knights
17 knights
70 bandits
11 cannoneers


crystal province

encounter 1

97 cerberus II
97 bandits
97 bandits
24 knights


encounter 2

58 cerberus II
58 cerberus II
14 knights
14 knights
58 bandits
58 bandits
58 bandits
58 bandits

 

[DeletedUser688]

I honestly don't see how you could get through those previously mentioned encounters with a squad size of 48...

 

[DeletedUser511]

How far are you from the next expansion on the tree?

 

[DeletedUser594]

First of all you are moving through the map very rapidly. You are really fighting at the limits of what those troop sizes can handle if you are that far out, so maybe waiting for an upgrade is not so bad an idea. It's the Elven map twilight zone because there is seemingly no answer for certain troop combinations. The golums are really so-so against the cannoneer. My last fight I went with an entire army of Golum 18 against
(1) 244 cannon and (1) 235 bandit. One cannon one-hit killed one Golum.
The only bit of tactical advice I might have is keep your Treants back. You mention how treants are too slow. That's exactly right. I use them to clog up choke points so my archers/golums can fire from safety.
In my opinion the Elven army is flawed in that there is no solution to Cannoneer until Sorcereress. Up until then you have to wait, level up troop size, negotiate. With my human army the cerebus wreaks havoc on the cannoneer and the archers immediately. I had started a thread suggesting extra barracks when I was just about exactly at the same point as you. I couldn't move forward for the foreseeable future and troop building was way too slow to give me enough to do more than a handful of battles before I had to give up and re-build for days. Nothin but crickets on that suggestion. That was right when Winyandor launched so the solution for me was to start a new city to keep me occupied while waiting to get enough muscle to push out further on Arendyll..
Final advice: start a human city on Arendyll. They are fun to build and the troops are fun as well. You can join our fellowship day one, we would be happy to have you.