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    Your Elvenar Team

The Case for the Elf Sorcerer and a few other maligned troops

Vigali

Active Member
Actually, that's not quite accurate as it does not account for the number of Squads you have in each. Your assumption that "A" is the answer might be different if you already have 800x of Blossom Mages but only 100x of Rangers. In that case, producing Rangers makes more sense.

This actually doesn't really matter; your existing squad count doesn't impact the marginal value of each subsequent unit produced in this case. The only way it would is if your unit production exceeds your total possible unit usage (i.e., you can clear Spire and 6* every single Tourney province available with less units than you create each week). Frankly, that's just not the case for anyone.

If we started adding in a conversation about how many frogs you should be building vs blossoms, then it would matter -- you'd want to make sure you have enough frogs and blossoms to handle their respective jobs -- but in this case, just talking about Buds/Blossoms and Archers/Rangers, it doesn't. You can build blossoms and archers and handle all necessary Mage and Light Ranged jobs, without ever building Buds and Rangers, and you'll be better off doing that (regardless how many existing squads you have) than you will be by building a mixture of all 4.

What I'm really hearing from your comment is that you see an inherent value in 'balance' -- that you believe having equal numbers (or even just a healthy mix) of various troops is a good thing in general. Because this game is inherently unbalanced, having a balanced army is actually a bad thing. You certainly do need to have some level of balance across unit classes (i.e., light melee/light range/heavy range, etc), but having a balance between individual units is not necessary. I understand placing value on balance -- the game tries to tell you that balance is important, and that building and training some of everything is important. Unfortunately it's just not true. In fact, it's detrimental to your progress to build/train some of everything. This is not a balanced game, so our approach to it should not be balanced either.

NOTE: I want to make a caveat there. If you enjoy manual fighting, and you enjoy fighting with all different units, then by all means train them all. The *real* goal of this game (regardless how much I and anyone else talk about 'maximizing value' or 'optimizing performance') is to have fun. For a lot of us, maximizing value and optimizing performance *is* the fun part, which is why we focus so heavily on it. If that's not you, then ignore this and do what you want.
 
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Vigali

Active Member
I believe this differes a little when you don't have all your troops unlocked and not all the unlocked ones are 3 stars. It's easier to be choosy about what you train when you have 15 troop types to pick from that are all 3 stars. Until I get to that point, at least all tropps unlocked, I will have to make use of my buds to conserve my Blossoms and until I get free buds I will have to train them to a certain extent.

Yes, absolutely, and this goes back to Soggy's point:

I absolutely agree that players shouldn't bother with training
bud sorcs if they have access to blossoms.
mortars if they have access to frogs
sword dancers/barbs if they have access to dogs

The units you train to maximize value will absolutely differ based on your progress level. If you don't even have the ability to train Blossoms, then yes, you're training Buds. What doesn't change, however, is the underlying principles that we're talking about here -- and those principles are arguably way more important to learn than "train this, don't train that." The underlying principle is that you should always be training the units that maximize the combined overall value output of the buildings you train them in. In the context of this conversation (and assuming you have access to all units), that would mean training Blossoms and Archers, and not training Buds or Rangers. If you don't even have access to train Blossoms, then obviously your path to maximizing value will be quite different.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I dare to say some units suck? like sorceress :p
I do "a little bit" of tournament every week ;)

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mucksterme

Well-Known Member
And you know the only reason I brought up my score is because someone said that people with low scores should have their opinion ignored.
This is not PvP. We are only competing against ourselves. But I still am happy in the knowledge that on any given week I can kick these "kids" arses if I so choose. The only thing they excell at is running their mouths.

( nb4 Helya says to keep it friendly )
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
It's a whole different game between. having all 3* units or not, doubling combat buildings with timewarp or not, and even more adding 50% more combat buildings and units by skipping a week and using timewarp for the other 2 weeks.

Hell if you throw enough combat buildings at the fray, you are only limited by provinces + owning enough units to field a squad in the high provinces.

Just try throwing 400% HP buildings and 300% mage/light range attack at a tournament and there is no game left lol.*
* assuming you have unlocked the 3* units
 
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ed1960

Buddy Fan Club member
What I'm really hearing from your comment is that you see an inherent value in 'balance' -- that you believe having equal numbers (or even just a healthy mix) of various troops is a good thing in general. Because this game is inherently unbalanced, having a balanced army is actually a bad thing. You certainly do need to have some level of balance across unit classes (i.e., light melee/light range/heavy range, etc), but having a balance between individual units is not necessary. I understand placing value on balance -- the game tries to tell you that balance is important, and that building and training some of everything is important. Unfortunately it's just not true. In fact, it's detrimental to your progress to build/train some of everything. This is not a balanced game, so our approach to it should not be balanced either.
Your assumption about balance is incorrect, I do not seek nor agree the game is balanced, it is unbalanced. I train only Golems and Archers - Dogs and Dryads (occasionally) - BM and Rangers. EVERYTHING else I get for free. I Cater when it makes sense, auto-fight the majority and Manual fight mostly for the fun of it. So the fact that I do have a healthy balance of most troops is due to Free Troops and no by actively producing troops.

having a balanced army is actually a bad thing
I do not agree with the statement at all
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
If a player is going to hit tourney hard every week they probably shouldn't be going into that poker game with half a deck of cards...Just Saying.
I probably meet your definition of "hitting tourney hard" and I don't train buds, either. I wouldn't call that a half deck - more like a full deck but with better cards. :) I'll use the buds I get from the FA, but I kind of have to remind myself to do it because as an auto fighter, I'd always prefer a blossom mage or even a banshee. I do train both of those, but blossoms (along with rangers and frogs) are among my three most- trained troops. Buds and sword dancers are the only things I never, ever spend training time on.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Nobody has 5 fire phoenixes, at most people have 2, and I got 1.
Yes I got 3 bears, but I also got a mega huge penalty in the tournaments because om my wonderlevels, expansions ect.

Last but not least: 232.000 points = at minimum 232 weeks = 4.5 years,
This assumes you win every week since the start, and each week gave 1000 points.

  • The tournaments are about 5 years old.
  • At it's introduction we did 8 fights per province and there was no fellowship reward
  • The first fellowship reward wanted 400.000 points for 10 chests. we did get more points per province but it was insane still.
  • The first tournaments were won by completing ~14 provinces, that was considered a lot and about the limit that was possible at that time.
  • The first few weeks it only gave 100 rankingpoints max
  • Nobody has won every tournament since it's inception
  • The first tournament where introduced when fairies or orks where the biggest chapter.
  • Combat buildings where only aviable with the introduction of the crafting which is only about 3 years old. combat buildings where intoduced once in an event before and so rare nobody has spares to use them.
  • Fire phoenix is only about 3 years old, it's older than crafting in the academy.
  • Brown Bear about 2 years old I think
  • Brown bear only became OP, with the intoduction of fellowship spires.
So anybody with a score of 150K or above has seen the non phoenix / bear days
and anybody near 200K most likely has seen it all since it's inception and it's full evolution and has competed for the best spots since the beginning.

My score is most likely still the highest worldwide, tho I do no longer dominate the tournaments anymore. but I rarely finish outside the t4. and always on the first page.

It seems that players who are not that long in the game seem to miss the point that all that we have today, did not exist in the past.
It's a matter of gradual introductions and improvements.
 
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Kekune

Well-Known Member
No offense but that advice from a chapter 18 city, who has the luxury of being selective about what trrops to train, doesn't help new/newer players who have "half a deck" of an army or less unlocked.
No offense taken; I'm not trying to suggest that my current experience is directly relevant to newer players (though fwiw, I've been not training buds for a lot of chapters now; this isn't a ch18 decision). I'm responding only to your statement that players who tourney hard can't afford to skip certain troop types. You made a sweeping statement, and it isn't accurate. That doesn't mean my approach is right for everyone, either. There's no advice, to my knowledge, that applies to every player in every chapter. I've seen exceptions to every bit of good advice I can think of. All we can do is share our personal experience and insight and let individuals parse that for their own use.

I don't think I've seen any experienced, respected forum regular suggest that *new* players shouldn't train a specific type of barracks troops. You've gotta work with what you've got. But as you progress, some troop types *are* more widely useful than others, and bud sorcs are definitely not high on the spectrum of usefulness.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Why the Bud Sorceress is hot garbage:
1. Low attack range - she must almost always move into face-punching range of her intended targets. Only very rarely will a player luck into extremely favourable terrain that will help protect her, (at least from melee units), yet she will always suffer those ranged attacks regardless.

2. Attack debuff - these are the worse of the two debuff options, since the enemy will still be able to do damage in return. And with low health units, it's even less of an 'advantage', since the attack debuffs are very rarely enough to make an appreciable difference.
On the other hand, defense debuffs allow the rest of your units to kill the enemy that much quicker, meaning you take far less damage in return since "dead things don't fight back."

3. Banshees are better vs. Heavy Range - this is the key troop to counter, since in this game, range is king. Banshees will hit harder vs. Heavy Range, AND, critically, they come with a defense debuff, effectively helping to boost the attack of the rest of your units.


...now, as for alternate options that will already exist, AND, taking into account unit vs. unit weaknesses:
- Vs. Heavy melee; the Sorceress is not needed since Elven Archers are solid units in their own right. Plus, the Archers have higher initiative allowing them move & attack earlier in the battle round, and have a longer attack range, which allows them to effectively kite their enemies.
Archers also do not fear enemy Light Melee as much, since they can mostly stay out of range of the likes of Thieves & Orks for at least a couple turns, while they are neutral vs. the broken as all gak Mist Walker.

- Vs. Heavy ranged; Banshees are available in Ch.5, shortly after the Sorceress gains her Lv2 promotion. Yet by this point, the Golum also has his Lv2 promotion, and fairs decently enough vs. enemy Heavy range, yet is also blessed by being the natural counter unit to everything that the Sorceress herself runs in terror from!
While they are only even with enemy Heavy Range, Golums are also the natural counter troop to ALL the things that rip Sorceresses to complete bloody shreds. :p

- Vs. mixed Heavy Melee & Heavy Range; this is basically the ONLY scenario where we begin to even consider the Sorceress, and even then, it's only finally a pro-Sorceress choice, when the terrain favours range vs. melee.
Why? Because V.Guards exist and can be gotten in ANY chapter by crafting the Valorian Valor building... V.Guards come with spears that give them a 2 tile reach, thus allowing them hit most heavy melee from a safe distance. The are also specialized vs. Heavy Range for added worth. A mix of V.Guards + Archers can readily handle most encounters that aren't full of enemy Cannoneers.


So yes, regardless of the Chapter, the Sorceress is a total dumpster fire of a unit, because almost everything she can do, other units and/or combos of units available at the same time, can do her job better than she can...
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
No offense taken; I'm not trying to suggest that my current experience is directly relevant to newer players (though fwiw, I've been not training buds for a lot of chapters now; this isn't a ch18 decision). I'm responding only to your statement that players who tourney hard can't afford to skip certain troop types. You made a sweeping statement, and it isn't accurate. That doesn't mean my approach is right for everyone, either. There's no advice, to my knowledge, that applies to every player in every chapter. I've seen exceptions to every bit of good advice I can think of. All we can do is share our personal experience and insight and let individuals parse that for their own use.

I don't think I've seen any experienced, respected forum regular suggest that *new* players shouldn't train a specific type of barracks troops. You've gotta work with what you've got. But as you progress, some troop types *are* more widely useful than others, and bud sorcs are definitely not high on the spectrum of usefulness.
That was exactly what I was saying, once in higher chapters you can be more selective but until then other players making sweeping statements about 'Buds are useless" and "you should never train them" without adding a caveat that this advise is for players past a certain chapter can be very harmful to newer players. All I was saying is that in lower chapters "you have to work with what you got and still need to train Buds" but that simple concept started the dogpile. I am not talking about you, you have always been respectful and acted like an adult when discussing things. Maybe some others will follow your example.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I believe you start out with Sword Dancers, Archers and Buds...So a new/newer player should not train 1/3 of the army they have available to them?
No one said that, you are making that up

players shouldn't bother with training
bud sorcs if they have access to blossoms.
...

There are some short exceptions where you have access to advanced level buds/morts/barbs and low-level blossom/frog/dog but for the most part, the deciding factor in fights is who hits first, and range/initiative decides that.
That was my first post on the subject, and I even made the relevant part in bold to be clear that I wasn't saying never.
 
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Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Why the Bud Sorceress is hot garbage:
1. Low attack range - she must almost always move into face-punching range of her intended targets. Only very rarely will a player luck into extremely favourable terrain that will help protect her, (at least from melee units), yet she will always suffer those ranged attacks regardless.

2. Attack debuff - these are the worse of the two debuff options, since the enemy will still be able to do damage in return. And with low health units, it's even less of an 'advantage', since the attack debuffs are very rarely enough to make an appreciable difference.
On the other hand, defense debuffs allow the rest of your units to kill the enemy that much quicker, meaning you take far less damage in return since "dead things don't fight back."

3. Banshees are better vs. Heavy Range - this is the key troop to counter, since in this game, range is king. Banshees will hit harder vs. Heavy Range, AND, critically, they come with a defense debuff, effectively helping to boost the attack of the rest of your units.


...now, as for alternate options that will already exist, AND, taking into account unit vs. unit weaknesses:
- Vs. Heavy melee; the Sorceress is not needed since Elven Archers are solid units in their own right. Plus, the Archers have higher initiative allowing them move & attack earlier in the battle round, and have a longer attack range, which allows them to effectively kite their enemies.
Archers also do not fear enemy Light Melee as much, since they can mostly stay out of range of the likes of Thieves & Orks for at least a couple turns, while they are neutral vs. the broken as all gak Mist Walker.

- Vs. Heavy ranged; Banshees are available in Ch.5, shortly after the Sorceress gains her Lv2 promotion. Yet by this point, the Golum also has his Lv2 promotion, and fairs decently enough vs. enemy Heavy range, yet is also blessed by being the natural counter unit to everything that the Sorceress herself runs in terror from!
While they are only even with enemy Heavy Range, Golums are also the natural counter troop to ALL the things that rip Sorceresses to complete bloody shreds. :p

- Vs. mixed Heavy Melee & Heavy Range; this is basically the ONLY scenario where we begin to even consider the Sorceress, and even then, it's only finally a pro-Sorceress choice, when the terrain favours range vs. melee.
Why? Because V.Guards exist and can be gotten in ANY chapter by crafting the Valorian Valor building... V.Guards come with spears that give them a 2 tile reach, thus allowing them hit most heavy melee from a safe distance. The are also specialized vs. Heavy Range for added worth. A mix of V.Guards + Archers can readily handle most encounters that aren't full of enemy Cannoneers.


So yes, regardless of the Chapter, the Sorceress is a total dumpster fire of a unit, because almost everything she can do, other units and/or combos of units available at the same time, can do her job better than she can...
I won a few fights today in tourney with Buds and took acceptable losses, no more than the losses of other troop types I used in other fights. I guess my game is just different than everyone elses. When used in the right fights they do alright, I agree in higher chapters that most surely will change but I take advantage of what I have at the chapter I am in, when it works for me. When Buds stop working I will use a lot less of them and by then will most likely be getting free ones to take care of the training issue. I almost always have more Buds at the end of the week then other troop types, so training is minimal as it is. I am nearing 200 stacks of a lot of troops and over 200 stacks of a few, I can afford to train a few Buds without doing damage to training other troops. I'm not saying they are "great" but I will use them when they will work until I progress further in the game. I can't destory my other stacks of troops, using them all the time, when I can use Buds in a few fights and conserve my other troops for the harder fights that Buds will be shredded in. An easy fight, is an easy fight and I will take the easy win with Buds.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I won a few fights today in tourney with Buds and took acceptable losses, no more than the losses of other troop types I used in other fights.
Did you try the exact same fight using Blossom mages? If not, then it's irrelevant.
Because the main point almost everyone else seems to be making is that in most scenarios (not all) Blossoms are better.

You can run a real test yourself by taking a fight right to the end and retreating just before you get the final kill shot.
Check your losses then try again with a different unit.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Did you try the exact same fight using Blossom mages? If not, then it's irrelevant.
Because the main point almost everyone else seems to be making is that in most scenarios (not all) Blossoms are better.

You can run a real test yourself by taking a fight right to the end and retreating just before you get the final kill shot.
Check your losses then try again with a different unit.
I saved my B;ossoms for higher provinces. I am not going to lose troops checking out a scenario, when I feel I have troops to just waste then maybe I will do that.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
My reference to your tourney score was that it is easy to be selective with training when you are not expending hardly any troops getting a 1,700 tourney score and that statement is correct.
It's irrelevant.
I've run several dozens of tests like
the one I just described above, and had lengthy conversations with players who've done hundreds.
My score doesn't in any way reflect my knowledge on the subject. All it reflects is that I'm 1. lazy, and 2. the prizes stop at blueprints IMO
 
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