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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion The Cauldron - Discussion Thread

quin629

Well-Known Member
"buy witch points" to replace "buy KP" seems the most logical suspect.

Highly annoying in event quests if it's a week where you didn't want to brew until Friday for a late spire or tourney run, but the quest comes up Sunday or Monday.
 

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
This is another reason why we need access to the study page(is that what it's called?) BEFORE & after brewing.
It can't be that hard to keep our purchased WP separate from the weekly ones for brewing purposes.
Except that we can use the weekly ones for studying as well. The only way I see to keep them separate is to remove that possibility and force everyone to donate resources in the study phase to get "study WP", which is obviously a terrible idea. Besides, people are already complaining that the cauldron is too complex and they can’t understand it: adding another type of points, both of which you can have at the same time but which can’t be used interchangeably, just over-complicates things from both a coding standpoint and a UI standpoint (imo).

***************************************************************************​
In general, I’m mainly seeing complaints about 1) complexity, 2) usefulness, 3) having to use the goblets all at once, and 4) not having round-the-clock access to studying.

1) The basic use of it actually seems pretty straightforward to me, and the recipes for exact effects will come in time as there is more engagement and exploration with it. In any case, it will become less confusing after using it for a time and getting used to the interface.

2) This will take some time to get leveled up to potentially game-changing effects, but even small boosts for free is worth it to me. I think this particular complaint is just human nature railing against change, the same way people complained when the Magic Academy and the Spire were introduced. At its core, this can provide a small (yet increasing) boost to your city for nothing more than 20-30 seconds of your time, if you don't want to drill down into the recipes and how to get exactly what you want.

3) @Dominionofgod complains that this is too limiting, but I think that’s exactly the point. If we were allowed to pick and choose when to use individual goblets, we could potentially trigger the same effect 4 or 5 times a week, meaning a chosen effect could be running nearly constantly after upgrading it just a few levels. This obviously throws the game balance all out of whack in a very short time. Also, as @Fayeanne notes, that would either mean even further delay of the study period in the week if they remain separated, or make it much too easy to create a self-sustaining feedback loop with already boosted productions and buying new WP if the periods overlap, which leads straight to...

4) As above, I think the inability to study before brewing is intentionally limited. Changing that introduces a new level of complexity to both the coding and the user interface, as well as making it too easy to level things up in a ridiculously quick fashion. It also takes away the balancing element of choice that currently exists, just as having limited space and no ability to rotate buildings causes us to make decisions about which buildings we want/need in our city rather than just placing them all. Currently the cauldron offers us a choice between current and future benefit: do I want to spend all my WP on getting the best effect possible this week, or do I want to decrease my chances at an effect this week by saving some points which I can use to create a better effect next week? Do I want to use the effect now when it might be less useful to me but I’ll have a longer studying phase for donating resources which means I can get the level much higher for later, or do I want to use the effect at the best possible moment for this week, which limits my ability to upgrade the effect for later? These are necessary (and I think, interesting) limitations which force us to make choices about what we want in the game. If we remove those limitations by being able to study whenever and separating the goblet usage, it becomes a matter of having your cake and eating it too. We no longer have to make choices or plans about how to use this, we just automatically have a permanently much more powerful city in the matter of just a few weeks, which would probably require rebalancing spire and tourney costs again, maybe even research costs, putting those players who don't use it/can't unlock it yet at a terrible disadvantage, and the effects spiral on...

After using it for several weeks, I actually feel that it's remarkably well-balanced between new and old players, ease of use and ability to dive deep into mechanics, and usefulness without breaking the game balance. This is clearly meant to be a long-term feature; it’s not supposed to be where you want it after two or three weeks, it’s supposed to take some time to get things leveled up. There's a lot to explore for those who like exploring and experimenting, and a lot to gain for those who just want rewards.
 

Raederle

New Member
As someone only in chapter 5/6, I brew a minimal potion Opening day just before taking goods, and then sink my energies into studying up the potions during the rest of the week. My biggest concern is the cumulative pricing of donated ingredients much like KP.
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
Except that we can use the weekly ones for studying as well. The only way I see to keep them separate is to remove that possibility and force everyone to donate resources in the study phase to get "study WP", which is obviously a terrible idea. Besides, people are already complaining that the cauldron is too complex and they can’t understand it: adding another type of points, both of which you can have at the same time but which can’t be used interchangeably, just over-complicates things from both a coding standpoint and a UI standpoint (imo).

***************************************************************************​
In general, I’m mainly seeing complaints about 1) complexity, 2) usefulness, 3) having to use the goblets all at once, and 4) not having round-the-clock access to studying.

1) The basic use of it actually seems pretty straightforward to me, and the recipes for exact effects will come in time as there is more engagement and exploration with it. In any case, it will become less confusing after using it for a time and getting used to the interface.

2) This will take some time to get leveled up to potentially game-changing effects, but even small boosts for free is worth it to me. I think this particular complaint is just human nature railing against change, the same way people complained when the Magic Academy and the Spire were introduced. At its core, this can provide a small (yet increasing) boost to your city for nothing more than 20-30 seconds of your time, if you don't want to drill down into the recipes and how to get exactly what you want.

3) @Dominionofgod complains that this is too limiting, but I think that’s exactly the point. If we were allowed to pick and choose when to use individual goblets, we could potentially trigger the same effect 4 or 5 times a week, meaning a chosen effect could be running nearly constantly after upgrading it just a few levels. This obviously throws the game balance all out of whack in a very short time. Also, as @Fayeanne notes, that would either mean even further delay of the study period in the week if they remain separated, or make it much too easy to create a self-sustaining feedback loop with already boosted productions and buying new WP if the periods overlap, which leads straight to...

4) As above, I think the inability to study before brewing is intentionally limited. Changing that introduces a new level of complexity to both the coding and the user interface, as well as making it too easy to level things up in a ridiculously quick fashion. It also takes away the balancing element of choice that currently exists, just as having limited space and no ability to rotate buildings causes us to make decisions about which buildings we want/need in our city rather than just placing them all. Currently the cauldron offers us a choice between current and future benefit: do I want to spend all my WP on getting the best effect possible this week, or do I want to decrease my chances at an effect this week by saving some points which I can use to create a better effect next week? Do I want to use the effect now when it might be less useful to me but I’ll have a longer studying phase for donating resources which means I can get the level much higher for later, or do I want to use the effect at the best possible moment for this week, which limits my ability to upgrade the effect for later? These are necessary (and I think, interesting) limitations which force us to make choices about what we want in the game. If we remove those limitations by being able to study whenever and separating the goblet usage, it becomes a matter of having your cake and eating it too. We no longer have to make choices or plans about how to use this, we just automatically have a permanently much more powerful city in the matter of just a few weeks, which would probably require rebalancing spire and tourney costs again, maybe even research costs, putting those players who don't use it/can't unlock it yet at a terrible disadvantage, and the effects spiral on...

After using it for several weeks, I actually feel that it's remarkably well-balanced between new and old players, ease of use and ability to dive deep into mechanics, and usefulness without breaking the game balance. This is clearly meant to be a long-term feature; it’s not supposed to be where you want it after two or three weeks, it’s supposed to take some time to get things leveled up. There's a lot to explore for those who like exploring and experimenting, and a lot to gain for those who just want rewards.
MaidenFair,
I think you should add one more to the list. Time, the time it will take each week to study and learn and then relearn the options for the next week does, from what a few small cities have told me, take a good bit of time. The MA you can open and see all 5 options and select or not in seconds - one or two click and you can walk away for "X" hours then collect. This is not how the Cauldron works as I understand it (never unlocked and don't intend to). Please feel free to correct me if this is wrong.

The players that want to login and do a few tasks and go about their day are not going to now sit for 5-10-15 minutes to do this I hear.

Ed
 

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
MaidenFair,
I think you should add one more to the list. Time, the time it will take each week to study and learn and then relearn the options for the next week does, from what a few small cities have told me, take a good bit of time. The MA you can open and see all 5 options and select or not in seconds - one or two click and you can walk away for "X" hours then collect. This is not how the Cauldron works as I understand it (never unlocked and don't intend to). Please feel free to correct me if this is wrong.

The players that want to login and do a few tasks and go about their day are not going to now sit for 5-10-15 minutes to do this I hear.

Ed
At the moment, there is potentially more time involved because we’re still learning how it works. However, it is totally possible to open it, click a few ingredients until you find one that has a higher percentage of the boost you want, and then just add more of those. 30 seconds, max. Another 30 seconds to click through the goblets and add your remaining WP to the study phase and you’re done for the week. If you want to fine-tune the recipes, then yes, it takes longer right now, although some of us who enjoy the experimentation are likely to discover the recipes/best way to use ingredients fairly quickly and when that knowledge is collated and shared, then all someone will have to do is find someone else’s list, copy off their favorite combinations and use those every week. Maybe 10 minutes work one time, then 30 seconds to a minute in the Cauldron once each week again. As I see it, the only time sink is for those of us who want to discover every nuance and combination. It absolutely does not take much time to actually use the basic functions of the Cauldron and get a boost in your city.

(As a side note, did you happen to look at the link that someone posted to this article about types of online game players some time ago? I can’t find the post again, or I’d link it. The article’s pretty dated, but I found it fascinating and think the basic concepts still hold true. It separates players into four categories: Achievers, Explorers, Socialisers, and Killers. I think the Cauldron was made to give Elvenar’s Explorers something interesting to do, and then once we’ve figured out how to make it work well and shared that knowledge, the Achievers can use it to boost their scores/abilities, but in the meantime, Achievers are going to be frustrated by the nuances. That’s my take on it anyway. ;) )
 
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hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
not going to scan 17 pages before posting lol but why only 4 goblets at 2k per tournament ? if i do 5k why not give more goblets to speed this slow process up ?
 
I used all Flying Iris, and got three results:

The strength of all Barrack troops recruited increased 3.8% for 1:45 hrs
Increased production of T3 goods 38% 4:30 hrs
Increased Orc Production 16.7% 9:30 hrs

I upped my Orc Horde to level 26 since sufficient Orc production is my main issue.

I don't know if the same ingredients have the same effect every week. I'll check after the next tournament.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Except that we can use the weekly ones for studying as well. The only way I see to keep them separate is to remove that possibility and force everyone to donate resources in the study phase to get "study WP", which is obviously a terrible idea.
As I said, it's not that complicated a fix:
Leftover Witch Points simply become Study Points when you brew, and Studying is accessible at all times through the Study Tab

The current way is going to suck a lot during events for basically everyone.
Here comes the "Brew a potion" quest on day 1 of the tournament, or the day after you brewed, or "Spend WP" quest when you don't want to brew yet etc.

Aside from that, having a resource sink (which this feature clearly is) that is only available a couple of days per week is lame. It's like only being able to buy KP or use the wholesaler on Thursdays. Lame.
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
not going to scan 17 pages before posting lol but why only 4 goblets at 2k per tournament ? if i do 5k why not give more goblets to speed this slow process up ?
because 5 is the limit.
before you ask "why not more" or "why have a limit"…
I would say, so that all players can use the benefits equally. they would not want someone who plays to 10k tourney points to get 20 chances at boosts. provides an unnecessary advantage to high chapter cities/players.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Currently the cauldron offers us a choice between current and future benefit: do I want to spend all my WP on getting the best effect possible this week, or do I want to decrease my chances at an effect this week by saving some points which I can use to create a better effect next week?
That wouldn't change if the study page was always accessible and leftover(saved) WP simply become Study points when you brew.
Do I want to use the effect now when it might be less useful to me but I’ll have a longer studying phase for donating resources which means I can get the level much higher for later, or do I want to use the effect at the best possible moment for this week, which limits my ability to upgrade the effect for later?
I think you're vastly overstating how much you can change the power of your brews in a few days after the first couple of weeks.
These are necessary (and I think, interesting) limitations which force us to make choices about what we want in the game. If we remove those limitations by being able to study whenever and separating the goblet usage, it becomes a matter of having your cake and eating it too. We no longer have to make choices or plans about how to use this, we just automatically have a permanently much more powerful city in the matter of just a few weeks, which would probably require rebalancing spire and tourney costs again, maybe even research costs, putting those players who don't use it/can't unlock it yet at a terrible disadvantage, and the effects spiral on...
Setting aside the fact that having a cake that you can't eat sounds terrible, you would not "automatically have a permanently much more powerful city".
You wouldn't suddenly get millions of free resources from thin air to spend on studies, you'd get to spend some of your earned resources a few days earlier, maybe avoiding some decay, and you'd have an alternative to the wholesaler and KP buying.

Being able to access the study page at any time would only impact the use of capped and decaying resources (e.g. coins/mana)
and after you've dumped a mainhall full of those once or twice additional spending has only a tiny incremental impact.
This would not be something that would "put [other] players at a terrible disadvantage"

For example we're talking about maybe going from a chance at +16.2% unit strength for one building instead of a chance at +16.0% strength
For an idea of just how small an impact that is, take a city with a level 17 needles and 1 firechicken who drops a couple ELRs for the tournament/spire.

Their rangers go from 291% damage to 291.2%
That's a 0.68% increase in unit strength, and only if they are lucky with brewing

Hardly game-breaking.
 
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That wouldn't change if the study page was always accessible and leftover(saved) WP simply become Study points when you brew.

I think you're vastly overstating how much you can change the power of your brews in a few days after the first couple of weeks.

Setting aside the fact that having a cake that you can't eat sounds terrible, you would not "automatically have a permanently much more powerful city".
You wouldn't suddenly get millions of free resources from thin air to spend on studies, you'd get to spend some of your earned resources a few days earlier, maybe avoiding some decay, and you'd have an alternative to the wholesaler and KP buying.

Being able to access the study page at any time would only impact the use of capped and decaying resources (e.g. coins/mana)
and after you've dumped a mainhall full of those once or twice additional spending has only a tiny incremental impact.
This would not be something that would "put [other] players at a terrible disadvantage"

For example we're talking about maybe going from a chance at +16.2% unit strength for one building instead of a chance at +16.0% strength
For an idea of just how small an impact that is, take a city with a level 17 needles and 1 firechicken who drops a couple ELRs for the tournament/spire.

Their rangers go from 291% damage to 291.2%
That's a 0.68% increase in unit strength, and only if they are lucky with brewing

Hardly game-breaking.
The small increases are for the options at level 1. They increase as you put witch points into them. I really need orcs, so I put a ton of excess mana into the Orc option. It's now at level 40, and I get a 10% production boost.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
The small increases are for the options at level 1. They increase as you put witch points into them. I really need orcs, so I put a ton of excess mana into the Orc option. It's now at level 40, and I get a 10% production boost.
Yes, and now how much mana do you need to increase your orc production again from level 40 to 41 which gives 10.2%?
And from 60 to 61? which gives another 0.2%?
You'll find that being able to dump mana every day of the week to avoid a tiny bit of mana decay (instead of only after brewing) has massively diminishing returns and as I said won't break the game at all.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
another ommission/deficiency is :
So you have 500 witch pts, all level-ups are >500.
Not only must you spend 50 just to get to that
section, now you have 450 and cannot add a
partial payment towords another level.... No, you
have to spend resources, that only get more
expensive. So, @least a partial payment to that
next level, stops stockpiling/abuse, but allows
over time for players to use thier witch pts for
better potions, and not force them to "buy WP".
 
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