Discussion The Cauldron - Discussion Thread

[DeletedUser26654]

A week goes by and it's still a silly waste of time and energy.

 

[DeletedUser26654]

It may be a philosophical question - a metaphysical one. Or a question about life.

But starting from Elvenar itself, let us remember the hoards of players quitting the game or being on the brink of doing it and complaing about its monotony and repetitive nature. Many have been blaming the feeling that they are completing chores rather than enjoying themselves.

As a reaction to these grievances (and because of other reasons too), the developers have come up with the idea of the Cauldron. This was supposed to (at least in part) address the issue of sheer monotony and repetitiveness because it gave people something to toy with, to try and experiment, and to potentially obtain new rewards.

If the developers thought players' complaints would diminish, I think they were naive - because there is a new whine in town: people claim they have started getting a "casino feeling." Who's to blame again? Elvenar, of course.

This reminds me of various things but I won't delve into all of them because I may have already become boring. I will only mention a novel whose author and title I don't remember, but where I think I came across with this idea (which is a paraphrase): "when people don't know what to do with their souls, I've come to realize they actually don't know what to do with their bodies." This statement was quite strking for me at that time and I disagreed to it.

When people don't know what to do about their escapist endeavors, I tend to think they don't know what to do about their lives. Or they're about to find out.

Sure; let's make this "endeavor" as confusing as possible to keep the masses quiet.... Uhhhh, no. This is a joke.

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

sorry but why only 5, why not let people stack up goblets for a max production blast vs the drip and drab ?

 

[MaidenFair]

That wouldn't change if the study page was always accessible and leftover(saved) WP simply become Study points when you brew.

I still think this has the likelihood of confusing most users even more than they already are, but perhaps I’m too pessimistic about that.

I think you're vastly overstating how much you can change the power of your brews in a few days after the first couple of weeks.

Setting aside the fact that having a cake that you can't eat sounds terrible, you would not "automatically have a permanently much more powerful city".

I was basing my estimations on some Beta posts where I saw late-game players say they’d upgraded several effects to level 50+ in the first week or two by dumping lots of resources. At level 50, many of the effects last around 12 hours, or basically one day’s worth of play. If the goblets are separated and you have the potential to trigger that 4 or 5 days out of the week, how is that not game-breaking? It’s like suddenly having a high level Mtn Halls that doesn’t affect tourney or spire plopped down in your city for more than half the week, if you‘re using one of the goods effects, for example. My concern about game-breaking was directed more at the idea of separating the goblets than at the study and brewing phases overlapping. I have different issues with that.

You wouldn't suddenly get millions of free resources from thin air to spend on studies, you'd get to spend some of your earned resources a few days earlier, maybe avoiding some decay, and you'd have an alternative to the wholesaler and KP buying.

Being able to access the study page at any time would only impact the use of capped and decaying resources (e.g. coins/mana)
and after you've dumped a mainhall full of those once or twice additional spending has only a tiny incremental impact.
This would not be something that would "put [other] players at a terrible disadvantage"

Okay, so let’s say you’re right and I’m vastly overestimating the usefulness, which is entirely possible. If then after “once or twice additional spending has only a tiny incremental impact”, why do you feel it’s important to have access to the study screen all the time? If it has such a small impact after a few weeks, I don’t see the point in reworking the entire system, just to give a few end-game players a week or two of more convenient resource dumping that won’t have much effect.

On that note, since it’s much too expensive for early-chapter players to put resources in even a few times, this change would do nothing for small players. A “terrible disadvantage” may have been an overstatement, but if it’s a feature that is, practically speaking, entirely unusable for smaller players, then any favorable adjustment to it is only beneficial to larger players who already not only have large stockpiles of unnecessary goods, but also get much lower prices for buying WP, giving them a large advantage in terms of leveling up effects more quickly. Why swing the pendulum even further in that direction? (Or do you object to pendulum figures of speech too? )

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

the above comments are why they should allow people to stockpile goblets, then they could sit down and have enough to use io figure out what makes what and have it at a level worth having, vs all the confusion of not being able to sit down, use it and figure out what they are doing or spot each player 50 goblets to start to be able to make mistakes and do a little hit and miss vs wasting time and getting frustrated, and letting goblets go to waste while they wait for ocd types to come up with the how to's lol

 

[DeletedUser26654]

I just looked at the thread for the spire when it came out. Seems like the same volume of denouncing it and saying it's a good thing. I know, so many still hate it, but I think even more have come to embrace and enjoy it. I say give it time and don't push too hard or get too upset to begin with. That being said, it would be nice to be able to study all week long, though I suspect as time goes by and we've leveled up some of our favs, there won't be as much of a need to get studying done all the time.

Spire's a pc of cake to HH.

 

[BrinDarby]

Just looking @ the "using all goblets @ once" issue......
Since the max goblets is capp'd @ 5 , even in worst
case senario, 1 lasts 24 hrs and 5 are used in succession.
Sounds alot like 5day buffs, which are stackable....

By using all @ once, you are "stacking" any successfull
potions. So if you pay for a better potion, you might
get more than you need, that you couldda pay'd less for.
this will lead to less spending in general overall.

I doubt TheCauldron will effect fighting as 4 each....
DA, UUU, ELR, MMM.... could do, even if its free.

I see no reason to force us to use all @ once, I just
don't, and TheCauldron is a token freebie each week.

 

[Arkadia]

Sorry if this has been discussed, I just can't possibly read all the chatter here
while i understand we want to keep the treads organized, finding info we're looking for is getting more challenging with keeping all Cauldron related discussions to 1 thread. ....sigh

so... Is the cost of ingredients change by the day?
e.g.
I recorded a recipe yesterday (a Saturday) for me to brew after tourney starts, but checking on it today (a Sunday), the cost of Witch Points dropped. I was able to add another ingredient, and the cost still was lower then what i had yesterday.

similar last week, except the cost got higher when i got to brewing compared to the cost when i recorded it. (didn't note the days)

Would love to hear more about this plz.

thanks <3

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

yeah i'm not anti cauldron as it doesn't cost anything extra if i am not padding he %'s, my beef is with the lack of information the developers do with roll outs and making it a drip drip drip use at 4 goblets a week

 

[iamthouth]

@Arkadia the cost of brewing varies depending on what order you put the ingredients in. So 3*A+3*B differs from A/B/A/B/A/B etc. The costs values per each does not change by day, but you likely did different mixes.

 

[SoggyShorts]

If the goblets are separated and you have the potential to trigger that 4 or 5 days out of the week, how is that not game-breaking?

I agree that could potentially be overpowered.

My concern about game-breaking was directed more at the idea of separating the goblets than at the study and brewing phases overlapping. I have different issues with that.

Please separate the two for freedback/discussion, I completely agree with one, and not the other

If then after “once or twice additional spending has only a tiny incremental impact”, why do you feel it’s important to have access to the study screen all the time?

Because
1. that tiny incremental impact is still desirable.
Going from Level 29 to level 30 in the MM AW changes my troops health from 279% to 280% but I still dumped 1,000+ KP into the wonder to do it.
2. An alternative to the Wholesaler for capped supplies would be nice
3. An alternative for capped coins other than KP/Wholsaler would be nice
4. Flexibility in completing the new event quests would be very nice "Brew a potion" "spend WP"

On that note, since it’s much too expensive for early-chapter players to put resources in even a few times, this change would do nothing for small players

This change would help them too. Little cities can progress so quickly these days that becoming capped on resources is entirely possible, and with the massive jump in production every time a player changes chapters the ever-increasing coin and supply production has an even greater impact on them.
Also, not everything has to help new players right away. I'm not getting any benefits at all from old age pensions, in fact, my taxes are funding them, but I'm not complaining. Why? Because (with a little luck) I'll get old too.

 

[Maeryn]

Little cities can progress so quickly these days that becoming capped on resources is entirely possible, and with the massive jump in production every time a player changes chapters the ever-increasing coin and supply production has an even greater impact on them.

As someone on the new tech tree I can tell you the notion that we'll be capped on resources is ludicrous. I have really only gone to the wholesalers after using rains(coin or supplies) to get goods when my boosted goods are too low to trade to continue on with the spire. It takes a few days of mm spells just to gather the goods needed to do upgrades for my ancient wonders. So no, new players aren't swimming in resources.

The only small cities swimming in resources are the ones on the old tech tree that can manipulate the cost of things by not placing expansions. The new early chapters have quests requiring a certain amount of expansions down, now.

 

[MaidenFair]

I agree that could potentially be overpowered.

Houston, we have contact! Haha.

Please separate the two for freedback/discussion, I completely agree with one, and not the other

Fair enough. My original post was an umbrella, but we have started to discuss aspects more specifically.

Because

1. that tiny incremental impact is still desirable.
Going from Level 29 to level 30 in the MM AW changes my troops health from 279% to 280% but I still dumped 1,000+ KP into the wonder to do it.

Agreed it’s desirable. But did you impatiently sit and buy kp, using dozens or hundreds of coin rains, to drop that 1000 kp in a few days? Or did you wait and build it up over a little time through regular gameplay (tourney, time passing, building bonuses, etc.)? Plus, you said yourself that it’s only necessary to access the study page at all times for the sake of using capped or decaying resources, and implied that that benefit would wear off quickly after the first flurry of purchases. I just don’t see the point in adding an extra layer of complexity for the sake of a (literal) few weeks’ benefit for some players, especially when that ability is already there; the study page can be accessed within five minutes of the Cauldron opening up, if you want.

2. An alternative to the Wholesaler for capped supplies would be nice

You can already do that, hurray!

3. An alternative for capped coins other than KP/Wholsaler would be nice

This works too!

4. Flexibility in completing the new event quests would be very nice "Brew a potion" "spend WP"

If that’s what the announcement meant, then yes, potentially having a block on quests would be very frustrating (although I suppose not actually that different from already having climbed the Spire for the week when one of those quests shows up). However, since the announcement didn’t actually say event quests, I see an entirely different interpretation of the announcement as possible, which is simply that the tech will be made mandatory (as already announced on Beta today) and the little set of 6 quests that pop up when you research it gets inserted into chapter five’s quest list and becomes non-declinable (hopefully only until the next chapter, like most quests). *crosses fingers*

This change would help them too. Little cities can progress so quickly these days that becoming capped on resources is entirely possible, and with the massive jump in production every time a player changes chapters the ever-increasing coin and supply production has an even greater impact on them.
Also, not everything has to help new players right away. I'm not getting any benefits at all from old age pensions, in fact, my taxes are funding them, but I'm not complaining. Why? Because (with a little luck) I'll get old too.

As Maeryn pointed out though, that’s unfortunately not the experience of most new cities, at least the ones I’ve seen or talked to. The tech tree moves them along so fast that they don’t have time to build up any cushion of resources because everything’s getting funneled to provinces until they’re firmly in the guest race chapters and getting tech-locked on guest race goods. I had around 100k+ of each resource banked by the time I was in Orcs; it sounds like most new cities are still literally running out of goods just to do research and upgrades at that point now. There simply isn’t any extra to spend on, well, extras, like the Cauldron.
Nevertheless, I agree that not everything has to help new players immediately; I’m just saying that since this aspect is already massively tilted towards long-term players, I don’t see a reason to tilt it even further.

 

[Aquiarius]

Where can I find something that lists accurately what each ingredient can be used for. And maybe a list of some simple potions you could make. Just to get us started on understanding how to brew better. I'm not on the Beta version so this is the first I'm seeing this.

 

[Alram]

Where can I find something that lists accurately what each ingredient can be used for. And maybe a list of some simple potions you could make. Just to get us started on understanding how to brew better. I'm not on the Beta version so this is the first I'm seeing this.

Page 5, this thread.

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/the-cauldron-discussion-thread.32778/post-274367

 

[SoggyShorts]

2. An alternative to the Wholesaler for capped supplies would be nice
An alternative for capped coins other than KP/Wholsaler would be nice

You can already do that, hurray!

If I'm using my brew on Thursday but capped on supplies on Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday?
Is your answer really
"Just waste your entire brew buff on a day you aren't doing the spire/tournament and you'll have access"
?

Plus, you said yourself that it’s only necessary to access the study page at all times for the sake of using capped or decaying resources, and implied that that benefit would wear off quickly after the first flurry of purchases.

The benefit diminishes, yes. Everything has significantly diminishing returns in this game though.
All players can eventually reach a point where they do things that only increase their city's ability to ___ by 0.0x%

As Maeryn pointed out though, that’s unfortunately not the experience of most new cities, at least the ones I’ve seen or talked to. The tech tree moves them along so fast that they don’t have time to build up any cushion of resources because everything’s getting funneled to provinces until they’re firmly in the guest race chapters and getting tech-locked on guest race goods. I had around 100k+ of each resource banked by the time I was in Orcs; it sounds like most new cities are still literally running out of goods just to do research and upgrades at that point now. There simply isn’t any extra to spend on, well, extras, like the Cauldron.

You both are referring to uncapped resources, which are not an issue for the cauldron study page access. Waiting a few days to dump [marble] only has an impact on one brew. Being capped on [supplies, coins] or losing resources for several days due to decay is another matter.

I just don’t see the point in adding an extra layer of complexity for the sake of a (literal) few weeks’ benefit for some players

I think it's a simple fix.
The benefits would be in effect for years, potentially forever
Everyone would benefit from it eventually.

I’m just saying that since this aspect is already massively tilted towards long-term players, I don’t see a reason to tilt it even further.

I see this whole aspect as benefitting newer players far more than long-term players.
Those old farts had to climb uphill both ways in the snow, these young whipper-snappers get this nice little boost that will make the process of progress easier than it's ever been

 

[Katwick]

A much cleaner analysis is available in
Cauldron Recipes

RECIPE DESIGN
The structure of the Brewing Page is quite predictable. You can create your own effectiveness table (which presumably improves as you study things) by examining one unit of each ingredient, recording the results for your own current progression, and then dumping the kettle (or exiting the brewing page) without actually brewing anything.

• FOUR ingredients are associated with each of the NINE effects.
• The effective ingredients for each effect are grouped 1-4, 2-5, 3-6 etc., (Left to Right, Top to Bottom).
• 40% Basic Goods (Trader's Basic Plea) appears twice in the list of effects.
  • To clarify the diagonal pattern, we've wrapped the 13th ingredient (which is really the 1st ingredient) rather than showing it as a separate second row.
• To see how recipes work, using 10% Coins as an example, enter ingredients #1-#4, 6 times (1,2,3,4,1,2,3, etc.)
  • Note that the cost of an ingredient INCREASES by a decreasing percentage (220% down to 109.6% in our trial) each time you use it (we'll eventually figure out the ratios formula.)
  • The order doesn't seem to matter if you want to get to 100% anyway; BUT, if you have to stop short of that goal, then the cheapest approach would be to enter each of the 4 ingredients in effectiveness order (base cost), then again (2.2 base cost), then again (3.9 base cost), etc.
    • Four random ingredients (each week?) will require Diamonds (rather than Witch Points) if you wish to use that ingredient. Fortunately (InnoGames' Fortune ), the Cost of those three Ingredient remains at 25 Diamonds, regardless of how many times you use a Diamond Ingredient.
  • If you had enough Witch Points, 6 passes of #1-#4 would get you to a 98% chance at one of the indicated boosts, (see the following snapshot) for 7833 WP plus 250 Diamonds, and one more ingredient would ensure 100% success.
    • But you won't get anywhere near 100%, with only the allotted WP per day, until you STUDY the ingredients (by adding stuff), which will (presumably) increase the base values in your own version of the table that's shown below.

The following table is for a city that has never studied anything; the data was generated using twelve single ingredient recipes, recording the effects, exiting the brew page to clear that recipe, and then doing it again for the next ingredient. You'll want to update your own "base" percentages if you've been studying things.

Type	Effect	#1	#2	#3	#4	#5	#6	#7	#8	#9	#10	#11	#12	Total
C_10%	Coins	15	8.0	3.3	2.9									29.2
G_40%	Precious		12	6.7	2.9	2.9								24.5
M_04%	Barracks			10	5.7	2.9	2.9							21.5
M_10%	Orcs				8.6	5.7	2.9	2.9						20.1
S_10%	Supplies					8.6	5.7	2.9	5.0					20.1
G_40%	Refined						8.6	5.7	5.0	4.0				23.3
M_04%	Training							8.6	10	4.0	3.3			25.9
G_04%	Settlement								null	12	6.7	6.7	10	35.4
G_40%	Basic	5.0									10	13.3	10	38.3
Total	Katwick 2023A23	20	20	20	20.1	20.1	20.1	20.1	20	20	20	20	20	1%_off

• The Ingredients are equally powerful (in InnoGames' opinion) as they each provide 20% total effectiveness, split up to four ways.
  • It's likely that studying an ingredient increases its 20% total potency, without changing the ratios.
• Ingredients #1-#7 are very orderly, #8-#12 not so much. The numbers are NOT monotonic for several of the later effects (also note the 5% for Basic Goods that we wrapped around to clarify the pattern,) so be careful to add the ingredients in order of effectiveness if you're near your daily WP cap.
• The cross-totals are off by 1% so there's some roundoff error in the displayed data, but it's obvious that Coins, Settlement Goods and Basic Goods will dominate in any recipe, while the Barracks, Orcs, and Supplies will be the least frequent results.
• It may be that there are MORE than just 12 different ingredients, with a different mix each week. It's certainly possible, and if it's not already the case (perhaps someone has records for several Beta weeks??,) it will likely happen in the near future.

 

[MaidenFair]

If I'm using my brew on Thursday but capped on supplies on Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday?
Is your answer really
"Just waste your entire brew buff on a day you aren't doing the spire/tournament and you'll have access"
?

Well, yes? This is only a problem for fighters who don’t have eyes for anything but the military buffs. If you want to boost mana, coins, supplies, any type of good, orcs, guest race goods, or seeds, it can be done whenever during the week. Even hardcore fighters need those things, right? Surely there’s some other effect you could use earlier in the week that would still be helpful: extra supplies for a Brown Bear feeding, orcs for training units, or even sentient goods to allow you to potentially store a manufactory and place another armory or more buff buildings? (I’m spitballing here at a fighter’s needs; don’t judge the idea too harshly if those exact examples don’t work.) Personally, it doesn’t matter when I activate it so I could use it as another wholesaler, I suppose, but while that can be a nice benefit, that’s really not its main purpose. Being able to view the Cauldron as another wholesaler just may not be possible for fighters, if you’re really tied to only using specific effects on certain days. I think it’s a shame to view it as broken because you can’t use it under very particular conditions to duplicate another game feature, though.

The benefit diminishes, yes. Everything has significantly diminishing returns in this game though.

All players can eventually reach a point where they do things that only increase their city's ability to ___ by 0.0x%

True.

You both are referring to uncapped resources, which are not an issue for the cauldron study page access. Waiting a few days to dump [marble] only has an impact on one brew. Being capped on [supplies, coins] or losing resources for several days due to decay is another matter.

Almost all the small cities I’ve interacted with recently are either casual (probably not every-day players), or asking for help on their Main Hall because they‘re chronically short of coins and can’t afford to do basic things like research or upgrades. They’re just trying to put food on the table, metaphorically speaking, they have no riches to spare for something extra like this.

I think it's a simple fix.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this. I can’t imagine the coding is as simple as everyone seems to expect (reason: I live with a coder with 45 years experience and I hear complaints and horror stories about trying to change implemented code for even simple processes almost daily), and I don’t see how it won’t result in even more confusion for the average user (Why can I only use half my points for brewing? I had extra WP, where did they go?? What are these symbols? Why do I have to buy points before I can brew? and so on).

I see this whole aspect as benefitting newer players far more than long-term players.
Those old farts had to climb uphill both ways in the snow, these young whipper-snappers get this nice little boost that will make the process of progress easier than it's ever been

For the Cauldron itself, I absolutely agree! Just not for extending the study period, since the whippersnappers live in a deflated economy and can’t even pay their rent for the month, let alone start investment funds.

 

[BrinDarby]

Since Event tasks are being phased out it seems,
are we sure the cauldron tasks aren't just part of
the personal tasks ?? if so, they can be ignored
and the cauldron can just be what it is...
A free, longterm, short duration, small bonus.

 

[SoggyShorts]

This is only a problem for fighters who don’t have eyes for anything but the military buffs. If you want to boost mana, coins, supplies, any type of good, orcs, guest race goods, or seeds, it can be done whenever during the week. Even hardcore fighters need those things, right? Surely there’s some other effect you could use earlier in the week that would still be helpfu....?

I wish I had realized you didn't fight before this entire back & forth, it would have saved so much time

In short: no.
I'd be shocked if a single fighter chose to brew at a time other than the day they fight the spire&tournament, especially in the later chapters when it's all done on one day.
Yes, fighters also need goods and orcs and whatever, but those aren't even close to the importance of the military.

Personally, it doesn’t matter when I activate

Fighters are constrained by the 5-day temporary military buildings which are in limited supply. That means in order to maximize their time we place them at the end of the week so that we can use them for the end of one week as well as the beginning of the next.
So for example this week I'll do everything on Friday, then next week everything on Tuesday to get the full use out of my DA, UUU, ELR, and MMMs.

Brewing on any other day simply doesn't work.

I think it’s a shame to view it as broken because you can’t use it under very particular conditions to duplicate another game feature, though.

Being a fighter is hardly a "very particular condition"

So yeah, since you don't fight this has much less impact on you than it does on others because you have much more flexibility in brew usage.
That explains why you feel it's so unimportant, you can brew at any time and will therefore effectively have access to the study page all the time... exactly what I (as a fighter) would also like to have, but can't without this change,