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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion The Cauldron - Discussion Thread

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
I wish I had realized you didn't fight before this entire back & forth, it would have saved so much time o_O
Haha, sorry, didn’t realise we were talking at cross-purposes. I’ve been vocal enough about catering, I just assumed everyone knew where I was coming from. My fault for making assumptions.
In short: no.

I'd be shocked if a single fighter chose to brew at a time other than the day they fight the spire&tournament, especially in the later chapters when it's all done on one day.
Yes, fighters also need goods and orcs and whatever, but those aren't even close to the importance of the military.


Fighters are constrained by the 5-day temporary military buildings which are in limited supply. That means in order to maximize their time we place them at the end of the week so that we can use them for the end of one week as well as the beginning of the next.
So for example this week I'll do everything on Friday, then next week everything on Tuesday to get the full use out of my DA, UUU, ELR, and MMMs.

Brewing on any other day simply doesn't work.
I do understand the frustration. I was just trying to encourage you to think outside the box and find a way to make it work (other than recoding the game, lol!). “An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered”, after all. (G. K. Chesterton) ;)

Being a fighter is hardly a "very particular condition" :rolleyes:

So yeah, since you don't fight this has much less impact on you than it does on others because you have much more flexibility in brew usage.
That explains why you feel it's so unimportant, you can brew at any time and will therefore effectively have access to the study page all the time... exactly what I (as a fighter) would also like to have, but can't without this change,
I agree that our playstyles make us see this very differently, and perhaps I’ve been less sympathetic than I could be. I do feel like my objections are nevertheless reasonable and reasoned, and aren’t just the product of my playstyle. At a basic level, since it really doesn’t matter to my game when the studying phase is done, it’s not like I’m trying to defend something, or worried that your proposed changes will negatively affect me; I’m just trying to think through the ramifications, and what it does or doesn’t do for the player base as a whole.

Inno has stated in the past, apparently based on internal data, that the majority of players are caterers. In any case, I certainly wasn’t calling being a fighter a particular condition, but the way in which you want to use the cauldron. You want to use it to dump particular resources (a possibility, but not the point of the feature), you only want to use part of the available options, and you also want to do it when it’s most convenient for your particular playstyle. These things are highly limiting, and currently incompatible. Does that make the design inherently flawed? Perhaps, but not necessarily. You don’t want to change up your game rhythm, which is perfectly understandable, but insisting the game itself then has be adjusted to your rhythm before looking for alternative solutions takes us right back to my poor maligned cake. ;)
 

Killy-

Well-Known Member
To be fair, as a fighter it doesn't really matter if you can use ur mana/seeds etc. properly or not. The difference might be lvl 60 instead of lvl 70 or later lvl 95 instead of lvl 100, basically no difference at all.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I was just trying to encourage you to think outside the box and find a way to make it work (other than recoding the game, lol!)
Unfortunately, the obvious fix is the programming adjustment, and "outside the box" workarounds are nowhere to be found.
(unless you count ones that are the equivalent of cutting off your hand to fix a hangnail)
You want to use it to dump particular resources (a possibility, but not the point of the feature), you only want to use part of the available options, and you also want to do it when it’s most convenient for your particular playstyle.
You keep making it sound like I'm a unicorn, but the 5-day buildings are a staple of fighting, and fighting is literally 1 of 2 playstyles available in the game.:D
I'd also say that a resource sink is precisely the point of this feature.
You don’t want to change up your game rhythm, which is perfectly understandable, but insisting the game itself then has be adjusted to your rhythm before looking for alternative solutions takes us right back to my poor maligned cake.
I have to admit the way you choose to phrase things does make me seem unreasonable, but lemme break that down a little:
I didn't set the duration of 5-day buildings nor the schedule of the tournament and spire. This is inno's imposed rhythm, not mine.

Also, It's not that I didn't look for alternatives, it's that there aren't any viable ones aside from the devs changing when we can access studying.

"I'd like to access the study page."​
-You can do so by brewing and taking your sips now
"I can't do that without unreasonable negative repercussions"​
-Then wait
"Lame."​
At a basic level, since it really doesn’t matter to my game when the studying phase is done, it’s not like I’m trying to defend something, or worried that your proposed changes will negatively affect me; I’m just trying to think through the ramifications, and what it does or doesn’t do for the player base as a whole.
Agreed, it wouldn't negatively affect you at all to give fighters the same access to the study page that you already enjoy.
If the majority of the playerbase already has it, giving the same access to the rest seems like a slam-dunk to me. :)
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Note: I'm not advocating for either side of the 'study all week or not?' question. I figure as soon as I 'got over' having millions of SF's and Scrolls (80 million scrolls in my crystal boosted city!) just sitting in inventory from the Moonstone Library legacy sets, and decided they weren't hurting anything, they released a resource dump for me. Ok, great. Only, I always wait with any new feature and never dump all my 'useless' inventory until I can tell how it's going to go. So, for now, I'm making a potion just to get to the study screen, use my weekly Witch Points and toss a little inventory at them. I'm concentrating on the military ones.
I describe myself as a fighting city, and that is true. They could remove the ability to cater or convince completely and I'd be fine. What non-fighting cities don't realize is that a side effect of being a combat city is: having millions of goods. I *think* when Inno made the remark about:
based on internal data, that the majority of players are caterers.
what they actually said was: more encounters are solved using catering than are solved using combat. I believe that's true. I don't believe that means the majority of players are caterers; I believe the majority of players are a hybrid of fight/cater (I am willing to entertain the idea I might be wrong about that!).
As a fighter, I've still catered a huge number of encounters for various reasons, usually time. If it's close to the end of tourney and I want to do more provinces, I'll just knock them out with catering. Quick and easy. If I need to do a bunch of world map encounters for an event quest, same. I enjoy manual fighting and prefer to do that if I have the time, but it doesn't mean I always fight every encounter.
I think many players with hybrid fight/cater cities fight as far as they can and then use resources (or vice versa; not sure if it's better to fight the lower provinces or to cater them and save troops for the higher ones?).
I imagine the 5 day buff bldgs, the 5 day polar bear feeding duration, etc., are extremely important to the hybrid cities. I'm now in a position where I can get 2 spires/2 tourneys off of 1 set of 5 day bldgs and 3 pet food; that covers 2 weeks of tourney/spire. That has helped me develop a good inventory of pet food and expiring bldgs. I'd think that would be an even bigger benefit to a hybrid city, and any ability to [slightly] boost those benefits with [weak] potions would help conserve not only those bldgs/pet food but also their other resources as they could fight longer before resorting to catering.
I'm thinking those players would prefer to be able to incorporate the Cauldron/Potions into improving their ability to solve encounters without penalizing them for making efficient use of the expiring bldgs/pet food.
 

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
I'd also say that a resource sink is precisely the point of this feature.
You might be right. I’ve been looking at it in the light of “I don’t need to spend any resources, so why would I!” and it becomes a personal game of stubbornness between me and the devs betting on my impatience, the same way I’ll try a Spire negotiation 8 or 9 times if necessary rather than use diamonds on it. But the mere fact that I can avoid it doesn’t mean the Cauldron wasn’t set up as a resource sink, hopefully beneficently as a way to give advanced players somewhere useful to put those dust-gathering millions of goods, as @samidodamage points out having.

I have to admit the way you choose to phrase things does make me seem unreasonable, but lemme break that down a little:
My apologies! I certainly find it much harder to communicate tone online without the benefit of immediate feedback and facial expressions/vocal nuances, hence my sometimes overly-liberal use of smilies. ;)
I admit that I did have doubts about your expectations at the beginning (which I can see now are perfectly reasonable), but I absolutely meant to explore the topic fairly and not misrepresent your views. I sincerely apologize if my messages did not achieve that. :)

I didn't set the duration of 5-day buildings nor the schedule of the tournament and spire. This is inno's imposed rhythm, not mine.
Excellent point. That’s a very compelling argument.

Also, It's not that I didn't look for alternatives, it's that there aren't any viable ones aside from the devs changing when we can access studying.

"I'd like to access the study page."​
-You can do so by brewing and taking your sips now
"I can't do that without unreasonable negative repercussions"​
-Then wait
"Lame."​

Agreed, it wouldn't negatively affect you at all to give fighters the same access to the study page that you already enjoy.
If the majority of the playerbase already has it, giving the same access to the rest seems like a slam-dunk to me. :)
My approach has been that I’m sure the devs had all these discussions long before we did, possibly for months, and settled on the current solution for some reason or reasons. My arguments have therefore been directed at determining why they decided to debut it with the current arrangement. After offering what occurred to me as various solutions and hearing your reactions, I definitely understand your frustration with the current set-up. I do also still have some, what I believe to be valid, concerns about the study phase overlapping the brewing phase, and between the two, I’m not sure whether there’s one perfect solution. I do hope that one is found which will allow you to make use of the Cauldron in the same way I can. :D Thanks for patiently explaining your objections to my objections! ;)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Thanks for patiently explaining your objections to my objections!
Well now, this has been entirely too pleasant and fair a discussion. (Hmmm "MaidenFair" I should have seen that one coming) This is the internet after all and a certain standard is expected.

Let's see...how can I regain the right balance....?
Hey @crackie , I think they should reduce Bud range to 2!
and
@muffy. could you... uh... pass me the cookie jar? It's just up there on the top shelf... you can reach up and grab it, right?
 

muffy.

Chef - Scroll-Keeper - Chandelier Swinger - EAA
Oh @&$;&@!! Oh @SoggyShorts @&$;&@!? !! I am trying really hard but … but the wall ! It’s to high .. it’s not built properly, it must be a mistake . Look ** grabs tape measure ** it’s 7’3/8” it’s WRONG ! That’s unfair to me ! Someone needs to contact the developers! This is outrageous !! Hmmmm perhaps I could teleport them to you !! But … but … oh holy hanna it’s not allowing me to &$@);&@!!! What the @&$&; !!
You are setting me up for failure @SoggyShorts !!! But fear not my friend ! The cookie shall be yours !!
I’ll just hop up on that chandelier and start swingin ….
I’ll come in like a wrecking ball :cool:

**Get ready to catch the jar soggy !!**
 

muffy.

Chef - Scroll-Keeper - Chandelier Swinger - EAA
@RJYHGHA The cauldron has to be unlocked in chapter 5.But you don’t have to use it if you don’t want to . You can still advance in Chapters without it
 
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crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Hey @crackie , I think they should reduce Bud range to 2!
I see what you are doing there, mister! But that actually wouldn’t make too much of a difference since she is already within striking distance and retaliation zone of everyone in order to attack, bearing obstacles. AI doesn’t make use of obstacles very well so it’s mostly a manual fight advantage, slight autofight advantage, but still a benefit of being a range unit nonetheless. Now, if you were to say, “Let’s turn her into a melee unit…” Well then…HISSSSS!

Well now, this has been entirely too pleasant and fair a discussion. (Hmmm "MaidenFair" I should have seen that one coming) This is the internet after all and a certain standard is expected.
Since they won’t let us use the cauldron to make snacks, I propose that there should be an option to use the cauldron to make…prophecies. There is clearly not enough drama around here lately and nothing shakes things up like some good old prophecies made by some croons and witches. Do we think McBeth would really meet his downfall or Oedipus would go off killing his dad and marrying his mom if them prophecies didn’t go on living rent free in their heads??? If we really want to spice things up more around here, I say give us prophecies! Bring it! The mods can then ponder if we are merely agents of fate or wrenches toying with the lives of others before they go cleaning up posts. That will keep them busy (while we root around for the Magic Accomplish Button).
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@crackie ,
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free-spirit

Well-Known Member
I would really like to either have the research section open the entire time the cauldron is available or be able to brew whenever I want and activate my earned effects during the week when I want them applied. I think it would be fine if I had to use all of the effects I earned at the same time and they expire at the end of the Cauldron week if not used.
 
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