The cost of Arcane Residue

[ajqtrz]

[Edited] I am sorry, but the calculations in this are wrong. I looked at the total for the enitire FA and used that for the total needed to complete the paths only. I'm leaving it as it is because it's probably good for me to let my mistakes hang out once in a while... The right numbers are farther down and show that the cost in diamonds is a lot less than this calculation shows. Crow Last Elf helped me find the mistake by asking a good question. So thanks!

AJ

Original Post:

I did some calculations on the cost of Arcane Residue if a fellowship wants to place #1 or at least in the top 10 of the FA. Here's my numbers. The maximum amount of Arcane Residue (RE, for this post) a fellowship can produce, at 2 RE per each automatic refresh of crafting is 1300. That's 8 RE per day per player for 6.5 days, 1300 total. (2x8x6.5) And that's if each member stays up and grabs the "middle of the night" one AND spends the time instants/CC needed. I estimate it takes about 8 hours of instants per RE on average since to pull off the trick of getting all the RE you can in the 6.5 days you will have to have good timing AND spend some time instants on one of the two. In any case, it is doubtful an fs will achieve the 1300 RE since participation is rarely 100% and capturing 100% of the possible 52 RE is not likely. Calculating a 75% participation and 75% capture means you will get about 732 RE in the course of the FA.

Now the last FA took a minimum of 419 RE to get through the three Stages, assuming a fellowship does the most efficient paths and does the most cost effective method -- all of stages 1 and 2, one path plus crossover way points on Stage 3.

Since the cost of the Pit is known as 5 RE per 300 points to achieve 85,000 points (which is about what it took to win 1st place in Khelonaar this FA), we can compute the number of times crafting was reset to get the necessary RE by subtracting the points of the three stages (as just described) from the total score and dividing the remainder by 300 and then mulitply that that by 5. This will give us the total number of RE needed for the pit. Thus, the score would be 21,600 for the three stages, leaving 63,400 points earned in the pit. Divide that by 300 and you get 211 "rounds" of the pit, and since it takes 5 RE for a round, 1056 RE were spent in the pit. If you can earn, on average, 2 RE per craft reset, and you earned 732 as described above, (without spending diamonds to reset the crafting) you would need to reset the crafting a few times. Since your total RE need is 1476 and you earned 732 in the normal course of things, you have to earn 743 by resetting the crafting. Since you get about 2 per reset that means you would reset the crafting 372 times. At 50 diamonds per reset, that about 18,500 diamonds to "win" the tournament.

As you can see, it's expensive to do that. My own fellowship finished with 42,000 or so and from our calculations we spent around 5,000 diamonds. We finished 6th, way behind the top 5. From all this we have determined it isn't worth the diamonds to us to finish in the top ten any longer. We usually finish 5th or 6th but in expectation that the future requirements will be more expensive most of the time we are just going to walk through the three stages and stop.

AJ

 

[Dew Spinner]

I did some calculations on the cost of Arcane Residue if a fellowship wants to place #1 or at least in the top 10 of the FA. Here's my numbers. The maximum amount of Arcane Residue (RE, for this post) a fellowship can produce, at 2 RE per each automatic refresh of crafting is 1300. That's 8 RE per day per player for 6.5 days, 1300 total. (2x8x6.5) And that's if each member stays up and grabs the "middle of the night" one AND spends the time instants/CC needed. I estimate it takes about 8 hours of instants per RE on average since to pull off the trick of getting all the RE you can in the 6.5 days you will have to have good timing AND spend some time instants on one of the two. In any case, it is doubtful an fs will achieve the 1300 RE since participation is rarely 100% and capturing 100% of the possible 52 RE is not likely. Calculating a 75% participation and 75% capture means you will get about 732 RE in the course of the FA.

Now the last FA took a minimum of 419 RE to get through the three Stages, assuming a fellowship does the most efficient paths and does the most cost effective method -- all of stages 1 and 2, one path plus crossover way points on Stage 3.

Since the cost of the Pit is known as 5 RE per 300 points to achieve 85,000 points (which is about what it took to win 1st place in Khelonaar this FA), we can compute the number of times crafting was reset to get the necessary RE by subtracting the points of the three stages (as just described) from the total score and dividing the remainder by 300 and then mulitply that that by 5. This will give us the total number of RE needed for the pit. Thus, the score would be 21,600 for the three stages, leaving 63,400 points earned in the pit. Divide that by 300 and you get 211 "rounds" of the pit, and since it takes 5 RE for a round, 1056 RE were spent in the pit. If you can earn, on average, 2 RE per craft reset, and you earned 732 as described above, (without spending diamonds to reset the crafting) you would need to reset the crafting a few times. Since your total RE need is 1476 and you earned 732 in the normal course of things, you have to earn 743 by resetting the crafting. Since you get about 2 per reset that means you would reset the crafting 372 times. At 50 diamonds per reset, that about 18,500 diamonds to "win" the tournament.

As you can see, it's expensive to do that. My own fellowship finished with 42,000 or so and from our calculations we spent around 5,000 diamonds. We finished 6th, way behind the top 5. From all this we have determined it isn't worth the diamonds to us to finish in the top ten any longer. We usually finish 5th or 6th but in expectation that the future requirements will be more expensive most of the time we are just going to walk through the three stages and stop.

AJ

Definitely not worth it!!! And you have to spend every second between FAs trying to recover.

 

[Iyapo1]

I see what you are saying I simply do not think it is entirely appropriate for you to judge all FS buy the standards you have applied.

Calculating a 75% participation and 75% capture means you will get about 732 RE in the course of the FA.

Specifically I have a problem with applying the above standard to the FA nutterbugs up in 1st/2nd place. I think they have a higher participation than most fellowships.

 

[ajqtrz]

I see what you are saying I simply do not think it is entirely appropriate for you to judge all FS buy the standards you have applied.

Specifically I have a problem with applying the above standard to the FA nutterbugs up in 1st/2nd place. I think they have a higher participation than most fellowships.

If you mean by "judge" "estimate," I can agree that my estimates are just that, estimates. But even if they have 100% participation and 100% capture, they still will need to spend diamonds to reset crafting to get the RE needed to get to 85,000 points.

If, on the other hand, you mean "judge by the standards you have applied," I'm not sure why you think it's a judgement. I only stated that to my fellowship it isn't worth it. I said nothing about if it is worth or should be worth it to other fellowships. It's entirely their call. I mean, after all, I spent diamonds on expansions because I thought it worth it. Others may not.

AJ

 

[Dew Spinner]

If you mean by "judge" "estimate," I can agree that my estimates are just that, estimates. But even if they have 100% participation and 100% capture, they still will need to spend diamonds to reset crafting to get the RE needed to get to 85,000 points.

If, on the other hand, you mean "judge by the standards you have applied," I'm not sure why you think it's a judgement. I only stated that to my fellowship it isn't worth it. I said nothing about if it is worth or should be worth it to other fellowships. It's entirely their call. I mean, after all, I spent diamonds on expansions because I thought it worth it. Others may not.

AJ

I would say calling people "nutterbugs" is also "judging" people unfairly, just saying!

 

[Iyapo1]

If you mean by "judge" "estimate," I can agree that my estimates are just that, estimates. But even if they have 100% participation and 100% capture, they still will need to spend diamonds to reset crafting to get the RE needed to get to 85,000 points.

This is exactly what I was referring to. I thought the estimate was low. It doesnt change the diamond encrusted bloodbath by much.

I would say calling people "nutterbugs" is also "judging" people unfairly, just saying!

Yes! Those people are crazy Dew...they get along with themselves and each other just fine and are having a bloody ball with the FA so yippee them...I am fine with never getting top 3 in the FA.
I am just going to stand over on the side all big eyed!

 

[Dew Spinner]

This is exactly what I was referring to. I thought the estimate was low. It doesnt change the diamond encrusted bloodbath by much.



Yes! Those people are crazy Dew...they get along with themselves and each other just fine and are having a bloody ball with the FA so yippee them...I am fine with never getting top 3 in the FA.
I am just going to stand over on the side all big eyed!

@Darielle has said that she and others have to make 10 Arcane Residues a day because others in her FS don't participate as much, either because they are too small to do it or don't want to, and they are the "nutterbugs" you are referring to. Maybe she can clarify if the 75% estimate is pretty close or not.

 

[Dew Spinner]

This is exactly what I was referring to. I thought the estimate was low. It doesnt change the diamond encrusted bloodbath by much.



Yes! Those people are crazy Dew...they get along with themselves and each other just fine and are having a bloody ball with the FA so yippee them...I am fine with never getting top 3 in the FA.
I am just going to stand over on the side all big eyed!

Actually, with the way you craft you would be the perfect candidate for a FS wanting to be competitive in FAs. You must make 8 to 10 AR badges worth of VV every day.

 

[Iyapo1]

I once saw a unicorn....I got 4 ARs off one cycle. FA or no FA, I craft a lot.

 

[Dew Spinner]

I once saw a unicorn....I got 4 ARs off one cycle. FA or no FA, I craft a lot.

You must have an extremely HUGE Boneyard!

 

[Darielle]

@Darielle has said that she and others have to make 10 Arcane Residues a day because others in her FS don't participate as much, either because they are too small to do it or don't want to, and they are the "nutterbugs" you are referring to. Maybe she can clarify if the 75% estimate is pretty close or not.

I ddn't mean to give the impression that I was dissing my fellow members. They do a LOT, and most of them work hard on the FA. We only have a couple who kind of flake on the FA, and they have their reasons, I guess. The others are just as good if not better than I am. It's just that when you go for number 1 in the FA, you're going to spend a ton more arcanes than most fellowships ever plan for. We go through the cycle in the pit pretty quickly, and virtually are unstoppable except for the arcanes. When you spend 4 days in the pit and only stop for arcanes, it gets pretty intense to get those. If we were just trying to do three maps, even all of them, and then just do a few rounds in the pit, arcanes would be a piece of cake. My fellowship doesn't do that, and since I want to help the team, I do everything I can in the pit.

I think we may be taking a break for the next FA. We've had three first place finishes in the past year, with a second place on one as well. I'm not sure I want to do that every time. At the end of the week, I'm always out of CCs and time instants, and I love time instants for the spire. But I'll see what the majority wants next time. I'm glad we're not going right back into an FA after this event. We need more of a break than that.

 

[Dew Spinner]

I ddn't mean to give the impression that I was dissing my fellow members. They do a LOT, and most of them work hard on the FA. We only have a couple who kind of flake on the FA, and they have their reasons, I guess. The others are just as good if not better than I am. It's just that when you go for number 1 in the FA, you're going to spend a ton more arcanes than most fellowships ever plan for. We go through the cycle in the pit pretty quickly, and virtually are unstoppable except for the arcanes. When you spend 4 days in the pit and only stop for arcanes, it gets pretty intense to get those. If we were just trying to do three maps, even all of them, and then just do a few rounds in the pit, arcanes would be a piece of cake. My fellowship doesn't do that, and since I want to help the team, I do everything I can in the pit.

I think we may be taking a break for the next FA. We've had three first place finishes in the past year, with a second place on one as well. I'm not sure I want to do that every time. At the end of the week, I'm always out of CCs and time instants, and I love time instants for the spire. But I'll see what the majority wants next time. I'm glad we're not going right back into an FA after this event. We need more of a break than that.

Hi Darielle, is AJ's 75% ratio of hard core participation pretty close or would you say it is closer to 80% or 85%?

 

[Ivy1996]

You state you need 1476 in total. I can only guess, but in a really involved FS that would require each member to produce 10 a day And that's doable. I am in a FS that really gives it their all at the FS and I am pretty sure none or very little diamonds are spend getting residue.

Did you know there does not need to be a midnight grab? If.yiu disconnect your MA from the road, you can pause the timer so it resets at a more convenient time. Mine resets at 9 pm, 3am, 9am and 3pm so I don't need to miss a reset. I do use timer instants but the spire gives me loads

 

[Darielle]

Hi Darielle, is AJ's 75% ratio of hard core participation pretty close or would you say it is closer to 80% or 85%?

In our fellowship, I would say 85 percent. But that's not too far off from AJ's. The fact that most people do play the FAs and give it their best when the prizes are dismal is a remarkable feat in itself. It shows just how much camaraderie there is within fellowships.

 

[ajqtrz]

I too craft a lot. At least 6 things a day and more if I happen to get the right things to come up. I pretty much only craft instants and pet food, but they come up almost every time and sometimes both at once. So in the course of an RE I naturally do my "share."

As an AM, I don't like the pressure put on my players when the next rank is just a few points away and all we need is a another RE. I know some players bow to the pressure and spend diamonds they wouldn't have spent if they didn't feel to not do so was failing their team. Loyalty too, can be a burden, even if it's a happy one.

In any case, that is, I think, a good reason to get people in your fs to talk about how many diamonds they, as a team, are willing to spend to get how high in the rankings. We had that discussion and found we were spending more than we wanted. So for us ranking in the top 10 was not worth the added pressure on players who might not want to spend diamonds but feel a bit compelled because they really do want to help the team.

Other fellowships will do other things and I don't think there's really a "wrong" amount of diamonds to spend. "Too many" for us us just "too many" for us.

AJ

 

[crackie]

Top 10 is achievable for sure without spending diamonds. We aren’t a credit card spending group and we do pretty well in FAs. We def don’t have the diamond hoard of #1 team on the server for sure, but knowing that, we also aren’t trying to beat them. If people want to spend $$ on giant caches of diamonds, it’s fine by me. Someone is keeping the lights on in this joint then for the rest of us playing for free.

 

[Crow Last Elf]

@ajqtrz

I can follow this calc for Arcane Residue badges

... The maximum amount of Arcane Residue (RE, for this post) a fellowship can produce, at 2 RE per each automatic refresh of crafting is 1300. That's 8 RE per day per player for 6.5 days, 1300 total. (2x8x6.5) ....

Is this following calc right for Arcane Residue badges? Aren't there only 170 badges required to complete all 3 maps, all 3 stages?

Now the last FA took a minimum of 419 RE to get through the three Stages,

 

[Darielle]

@ajqtrz

I can follow this calc for Arcane Residue badges



Is this following calc right for Arcane Residue badges? Aren't there only 170 badges required to complete all 3 maps, all 3 stages?

You use a heck of a a lot more arcanes in 4 days in the pit than you do on the 3 maps. Or maybe that's just us.

 

[ajqtrz]

@ajqtrz

I can follow this calc for Arcane Residue badges
Is this following calc right for Arcane Residue badges? Aren't there only 170 badges required to complete all 3 maps, all 3 stages?

The last FA the spreadsheet I used said the minimum for getting through the 3 stages in the manner described -- all the way points in stages 1 and 2 and one path plus all crossovers in Stage 3 -- was 166. AND now that you've discovered it for me, I made a mistake and looked at the wrong column in my ss to figure it all out. The devil is in the details and sometimes I'm not to good at the details. So, I'll go try again...

So let's recalculate our hypothetical costs. Still wanting 85000 points you still get 21600 points from the paths/stages. The leaves, as before, 63,400 points for the pit, 212 rounds. Since it takes 5 RE per round that's 1060 RE and finally, add to that the 79 and the total is 1139. At 85% participation and 85% capture rate, you get 940 RE, which would leave you about 200 left to gain via diamonds -- at 2 RE per reset, about 100 resets, 2500 diamonds. Of course, having 85% of your players capturing 85% of the possible RE is pretty high, but obviously, my initial calculations were way off. 2500 diamonds is a lot less than 18,000+. But they are diamonds and it's nice to know in any case.

But that would also mean, if you wanted to get into the top 10, you have to do a lot more rounds in the pit. And now for a surprise!

If you wanted your total score to be 85,000 and did the blue path only, "winning" would take 1312 RE, about 200 less than the way, I believe, most fs's do it. Maybe I'm just slow and they've all discovered this...at least in the last FA... but it would have been better to take the blue path only, and then done the pit -- at least if you are just looking at RE. Here's the calculations.

Doing just the blue path you would have needed 35 RE and netted you 8,400 points, leaving 77,600. Each full round in the pit gets you 300 points and costs you 5 of each badge. So divide 77,600 by 300 and you get about 255 rounds. Multiply that by 5 and now you know you will need 1277 RE. Add 35 and 1277 and to finish in first using the blue path only, you would need 1312 RE. The other method, and the one we used, if we had placed first, would have cost us 1139 RE and thus, no diamonds if we did ninety percent+ participation and captured all the RE we could.

Of course this only considers RE. Other factors may have made it better to do things differently. But at least now I know it may be in the next FA that just doing 1 path would be cheaper than our usual method.

Thanks for the comment

 

[tiG23]

arcanes will kill me now. gems is my CC relic, i'm down to less than 1/5 of my others (200 vs 1000ish). I only make CC's. yes, people say the relics will balance out. NO, not for me, i will always be low in gems now and going all out on arcane residues won't be as possible as before.