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    Your Elvenar Team

The Crack Guide to Fighting

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
They made me put my crayons away in favor of ink in order to scribble in them Scrolls of Knowledge. Anyway, I have released my fighting tutorial The Crack Guide to Fighting: Mastering the Art of Pew Pew. And since I like creating more work for myself and said the Battle Knowledge section is brought to you by The Bud Sorceress Fan Club, I thought I need to add a section about Buddy in there too. I would say the content of the tutorial runs the gamut from beginner material to more advanced stuff.

Topics covered:
  • Understanding Stack Sizes
  • Know Thy Friends and Enemies
  • Understanding Starting Position
  • Complain about Heavy Melee
  • Maximizing Brown Bear
Let me know if there are other topics you want me to cover, though I can't guarantee it will be added. Last time I added 7 pages on Starting Position alone, which I think is the most fundamental aspect of fighting, but then concluded I will never finish this tutorial.
----
More articles found in the Battle Knowledge and Tournament Tips section of Scrolls of Knowledge.
 
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Zoof

Well-Known Member
@crackie I kinda want to know more about the starting positions thing. My advanced cavezoof skills settled on knowing just enough by putting leafy greens up front to distract enemy razor leafs while the burny words girls goes to have a quick chat with the other guys. I haven't advanced past that and am otherwise brute forcing things by laying down a load of pointy stick sharpeners and throwing hordes of pointy stick throwers regardless of what's on the other side.

Basic cavezoof skills includes knowing the battle formula that is rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
In line with what @Zoof 's asking for, something on the Combat Pentagon would be helpful. A discussion of what the game considers and highlights a unit to be 'good' against on the troop selection screen would also be helpful.
Ex: Sword Dancer is flagged as 'good' against Archers. That does not necessarily mean it is the best choice against Archers. That's the case for many of the other troops as well. I've seen players who are trying to learn the combat system who get really upset when they take in Sword Dancers and get massacred against all Lt Range enemies due to terrain/range/bottleneck issues. They would have been better served to use HR or even Cerebus (which is almost always the case when weighed against really squishy/slow Sword Dancers). The game doesn't make this clear.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
@crackie I kinda want to know more about the starting positions thing.
Page 13 to 19? I feel like understanding starting position also really will help with autofighting. At the same time, I understand it's really hard for autofighters to visualize what is going on even if I post screenshots if they've never seen a battle play out before. I probably can add 20 more pages on Starting Position, but the visuals needed to explain things would need to be created from scratch, which is a hurdle.
My advanced cavezoof skills settled on knowing just enough by putting leafy greens up front to distract enemy razor leafs while the burny words girls goes to have a quick chat with the other guys.
A quick tip: Try avoid using Sword Dancers :)
Well, you might have to use them early game when everything is level 1 and wimpy, but as you progress, definitely ween off. She's got an advantage on Light Melee and Mages, but she has a hard time chasing down retreating Light Range units and Abbots/Blossom mages hang out in the back so it takes Sword Dancer forever to reach them. If she has to run through Heavy Range to reach those Mages, she's prob already dead. On paper, she's supposed to be effective, but she's pretty useless. See also: @samidodamage's post above. I don't train any Sword Dancers. They are free from Bulwark. I might use her to clear map provinces since they are all Very Easy blue provinces and I can throw anything at it and still win. March forth, cannon fodder!
n line with what @Zoof 's asking for, something on the Combat Pentagon would be helpful. A discussion of what the game considers and highlights a unit to be 'good' against on the troop selection screen would also be helpful.
Ex: Sword Dancer is flagged as 'good' against Archers. That does not necessarily mean it is the best choice against Archers. That's the case for many of the other troops as well. I've seen players who are trying to learn the combat system who get really upset when they take in Sword Dancers and get massacred against all Lt Range enemies due to terrain/range/bottleneck issues. They would have been better served to use HR or even Cerebus (which is almost always the case when weighed against really squishy/slow Sword Dancers). The game doesn't make this clear.
Is that covered on Page 9? Or are you saying I need to actually explain the Combat Pentagon? I linked to the Combat Pentagon but I didn't actually explain it since it's explained in the wiki.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
@crackie maybe a link to the specific page in wiki could be added for them for that pentagon stuff? Not sure just a thought?
There is a link directly to the Combat Pentagon on Page 9. Hold up, are we talking about the Scroll of Knowledge Battle Section right now? I'm talking about the tutorial in the 1st post. I will add the Fighting Pentagon to the Battle Knowledge though. helya had the Battle wiki link in her first post so I thought that'd cover it.
 

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper, Buddy Fan Club Member
@crackie that is a really great document, I have learned a lot from the starting position part! At first when seeing the word starting position I was thinking I need to learn to use more than one troop to have any use of starting position knowledge but you are incorporating that part into the section:)
I still need to learn to use more than one troop instead of always picking 5 identical troops and press auto-fight, but now I have some suggestions I can try out and experiment with. Thank you!
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I still need to learn to use more than one troop instead of always picking 5 identical troops and press auto-fight, but now I have some suggestions I can try out and experiment with.
Yes, THIS! 150% what you just said. If you understand starting position, you can ween off the “brute force” method of one unit type for all 5 slots in autofights. And if someone doesn’t do the all-5-same strategy, they might be using mostly a Combat Pentagon led strategy. However, the longer a fight takes to conclude, the more likely it devolved into a melee brawl. Range units become very vulnerable and ineffective in a melee brawl. The higher up you go in tourney, the longer the fights take to conclude. Therefore, you need to adjust for possibly needing to sprinkle more melee units into the mix the further/deeper you go into Tourney. A fight with the same grouping of enemies in the same positions in Province 24 shouldn’t necessarily be fought using the same troop selections in Province 4. However, both the all-5-same and Combat Pentagon method would steer you to do so. Understanding starting position, movements/initiative/range would inform you not to do so.

Of course, this is if you want to improve fighting technically. One can also drop enough buff buildings to throw finesse out the window and do just as well. As one of the top tourney guys in my FS told me, “You don’t need to feed the Fire Phoenix if you drop enough buffs.” Not everyone has a lvl 30 Timewarp and can stretch buff buildings for 2 weeks… :rolleyes:
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
There is a link directly to the Combat Pentagon on Page 9. Hold up, are we talking about the Scroll of Knowledge Battle Section right now?
I was only talking about the 'Crack Guide to Fighting'. On Page 9, 'Combat Pentagon' and 'Unit Stats Overview' are underlined and in a pretty color, but they are not links... ;)
I was also trying to find an old graphic I saw showing an easy way to remember the strengths/weaknesses when looking at the troop selection screen. Each unit is strong against the 2 units to its right and vulnerable to the 2 units to its left (assume a circle connecting HR/LM). The graphic had arrows showing the connections. For me, that was easier to internalize. The Pentagon made me crazy, lol! I had to look at it every time I needed to select troops and still didn't internalize the connections between the units until I finally saw that graphic.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I was only talking about the 'Crack Guide to Fighting'. On Page 9, 'Combat Pentagon' and 'Unit Stats Overview' are underlined and in a pretty color, but they are not links... ;)
I've just tried it on both browser and mobile. On phone it's a straight click. On browser, when you click, it hovers a preview box and then you click the link in the popup to direct you to the page. But... I've also just made a new post in Battle Knowledge with it, included the link to Combat Pentagon, AND added the Combat Pentagon into the slide on the tutorial document (Page 9). That ought to cover all the grounds lol

P.S. We're still in discussions of how to present the Knowledge Scroll material and what goes where so who knows...it might look differently in a day or two or week. I got the department with a lot of overlap into other people's lanes.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Ok, I fooled around with the Crack Guide and got the links. What I had to do was click to highlight a blue border around the 'text box' (?for lack of a better description); then I could click the link and get the pop-up. I had followed the link in the Battle Knowledge and saw it was a link there. I then went back to the Guide and hovered only over everything, thus cursor just turned to the 'typing' icon from the arrow.
One must always remember I'm old and slow sometimes, lol!
 

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper, Buddy Fan Club Member
Of course, this is if you want to improve fighting technically. One can also drop enough buff buildings to throw finesse out the window and do just as

Oops, you revealed what I am doing :oops: I would like to learn too though (I need to find time to it), I assume I can get even more kp if I learn to fight better and use booster buildings.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
Crackie, thank you for loving Buddy. That particular group has served me well even with my inadequate fighting style. I did hear something about starting position choosing position one against position one... p2 against p3, p3 against p5 ... and stuff like that for secondary battle maps. I'm very confused which is why I probably lose most of the time. I tend to rely HEAVILY on Buddy and her pet dogs. I love the frogs and throw them in for fun. Just because the Frog Princes should always fight with Buddy. It just seems 'right' to me. But then again, I lose many many troops.
 

tiG23

Active Member
I was only talking about the 'Crack Guide to Fighting'. On Page 9, 'Combat Pentagon' and 'Unit Stats Overview' are underlined and in a pretty color, but they are not links... ;)
I was also trying to find an old graphic I saw showing an easy way to remember the strengths/weaknesses when looking at the troop selection screen. Each unit is strong against the 2 units to its right and vulnerable to the 2 units to its left (assume a circle connecting HR/LM). The graphic had arrows showing the connections. For me, that was easier to internalize. The Pentagon made me crazy, lol! I had to look at it every time I needed to select troops and still didn't internalize the connections between the units until I finally saw that graphic.
there is a chart in Mykans guide that shows tourney prep. I'm a bit confused though, this chart says use HR for LR but now I'm reading use LM.
 
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samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
@tiG23
First: a lot of those older guides were written when the tourney had a different structure than it does today. I haven't looked to see if Mykan's has been updated. Even with updated info, though, your question is a great example of the question I see frequently from newer players who don't yet fully understand the combat system.
There will always be more than one troop type that has a strong attack against an opposing troop type. LR is vulnerable to both HR and LM. Mage is vulnerable to LR and LM. HM is vulnerable to LR and Mage, etc. The question is 'when to choose which one?' and the answer is 'It depends', lol!
Ex: In early chapters it's possible to have (will use elf troops; should be similar to human troops) a 2*Cerebus and a 1*Golem. Depending on the other enemy units, say 3 Mist Walkers/2 Thieves, Cerebus might be the better option unless you have a lot more squads of Golems than your dogs. Of course, if you're facing 3 Mist Walkers and 2 enemy HR, you may still be better off using your lower star HR. Also, a caveat to the 'never use Sword Dancers' that I adhere to now: early chapters, it took me twice as long to train the same number of Cerebus as Sword Dancers. Esp once the Sword Dancers got to 3*, the cerebus may have still been better, but it wasn't twice as good, lol! I tended then to use those Sword Dancers in the easier fights and conserve the cerebus for harder fights. Plus, most of my Sword Dancers are passive productions from the Bulwark, so it's not like I had to take up training queue space/resources to replace losses. Back then, that mattered a lot: all 3 training bldgs shared one 5 slot training queue!
Now, I've got all my troops at 3*. The question of which troop to use is even more complicated. Ex: I almost always prefer Blossom Mages against HM. But HM are also vulnerable to LR. Since I get free Archers from my Shrooms, I'll substitute Archers for the Blossoms. If it's a HM/LR mix, I'll use Archers, if its a HR/HM mix, I might substitute Buddy (she comes free from the Flying Academy). Banshee is also good against HR, but I haven't devoted resources to training her much. So, lots of different choices depending on the battle and what units you've got trained.
Basically once you have all 3 training bldgs and all troop types, you have a bunch of options to avoid running out of/trying to speed train troops. Before that happens, you'll have some overlap of troop types that can used in a given situation. Even those (fairly wimpy) 1*Frogs you get from event bldgs can be used in early/easier fights to conserve your stronger Golems for later/harder fights.
 

Lady Dastardly

Well-Known Member
I was also trying to find an old graphic I saw showing an easy way to remember the strengths/weaknesses when looking at the troop selection screen. Each unit is strong against the 2 units to its right and vulnerable to the 2 units to its left (assume a circle connecting HR/LM). The graphic had arrows showing the connections. For me, that was easier to internalize.
I've seen that graphic, and it's what clicked for me as well, but I can't find it either. This is exactly how I explain it to players who are new to fighting.
 

tiG23

Active Member
I thought I bookmarked it, it was not really really old and it made so much sense. I'm still looking for it, but I read everywhere and everything lol. I don't think it's in Mykan's guide, I've just been through that. I'm not new to fighting, I've done pretty well in my main. But the more I read, the more confused I get LOL.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I *think* I saw that graphic in a thread on the forum, not in any of the guides iirc. Problem is, it may have come up in a discussion that was on another topic that morphed into talking about choosing troops. And I don't know which sub-forum it was in either; could have been Gen Discussion, Questions/Help or Battle Help or anywhere really. Also, since I don't play beta but read the beta forums, it could have been over there. Who knows, lol!
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Crackie, thank you for loving Buddy.
:D This is the first time I've been thanked for being Buddy's BFF! Even my support tickets are sprinkled with people maligning Buddy. So many more haters!

I've seen that graphic, and it's what clicked for me as well, but I can't find it either. This is exactly how I explain it to players who are new to fighting.
I've not seen this image you two speak of but it kinda follows initiative order, except Mages and LR are flipped:
Mages < Light Range < Light Melee < Heavy Range < Heavy Melee < (back to) Mages

Everyone immediately to the right (acts after) is very strong against the unit directly before them.

I thought I bookmarked it, it was not really really old and it made so much sense. I'm still looking for it, but I read everywhere and everything lol. I don't think it's in Mykan's guide, I've just been through that. I'm not new to fighting, I've done pretty well in my main. But the more I read, the more confused I get LOL.
Mykan's Guide that I posted to Knowledge section is from 2016. It's still somewhat relevant and also somewhat outdated. For example, you won't encounter gators in tourney or Spire anymore. It's less outdated than the tourney guides from Gems though, which is why I didn't include those. But I did stick 2016 to it to suggest some level of obsolete may be involved.

See also: Know Thy Friends & Enemies for info on Combat Pentagon and reading Unit Stats Overview.
 
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