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    Your Elvenar Team

The Crack Guide to Fighting

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I will say I only play one human city and you keep bringing up sword dancers and I only shoot at them and hack with them.
They have similar specs with same movement (3) and range (1), but Axe Barbs hit almost twice as hard as Sword Dancer. For all the effort, Sword Dancers really just to go up to an enemy to fan the sweat off their brows when they swing, if they can reach someone at all. They are prone to terrain already as a melee unit, but their movement is very lousy at overcoming that handicap. Pair that with a wimpy swing, they are better equipped for winning dance offs.

We both have been painting with broad strokes here. You with your map and me with my troop selection.
Initiative, movement, and change do not change as those properties are fixed. Therefore, the map shows the max movement and range the unit can ever hope to achieve on opening turn. Any terrain combinations means it will still fall within that range and is accounted for with 100% certainty. Knowing that allows players to make smarter decisions. For example, on paper, Heavy Range vs Heavy Range is a fair pairing. In practice though, a Golem or Orc Strat will never reach a Cannoneer on opening turn regardless of what the terrain looks like with 100% certainty. If you select them to handle the Cannoneer, they MUST walk on their first turn unless there is an enemy unit that moves towards them close enough, which again, is still determined by Initiative, movement, and range of the enemies. Therefore, if you want to make the most of each battle round by not having your unit waste a turn taking scenic tours, then you can pivot and say, "Ok, maybe a mage or a Frog might work better in this situation to take care of that Cannoneer." Otherwise, in a 5 vs 5 battle like in Spire/Tourneys, the side that gets more shots off will obviously have a more favorable advantage. In the upper provinces where they already grossly outnumber you, giving them more free pot shots outside Mist Walkers is setting oneself up for failure more than success. In autofighting, you only get to select the troops and which slots they can go in. You want to be in the position to make better, informed decisions.

I can also paint with broad strokes as to the enemy will do based on Initiative, movement and range. I know an Orc General will ALWAYS be contained within a 4-hex (starting position+2 movement + 1 range) area from the right side after their first move regardless of what the terrain looks like, which means I generally don't need to worry about him on opening round. Therefore, you don't need to know the exact movement details or terrain. Autofighters cannot see either, but the Orc General's location is still equally predictable to autofighters. This info can be applied by both the manual fighter or the autofighter.

If you have a couple vallorian valor buildings then you might choose valorian valors but if you don't
They are available in MA, which means it is a unit available to most players since even early chap players have access to MA. Whether they choose to build them or not is same as whether people train all the units available to them in each military building. They don't have to exercise it, but the option is there.

In my opinion the simple "use 3* troops when you can" is good advice for players who don't want to know a ton about fighting.
If they don't want to know a ton about fighting, they probably don't want to read a tutorial that spent 6 pages on Starting Position :)
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Thanks for that link @Smooper !
It explains why I didn't understand the term. Like many players here, I'm female, old and/or retired.
I have never played a combat game before playing Elvenar. I went through the first few chapters determined to ignore combat here, lol! I try to never forget how hard it was to wrap my brain around the battle concept when I decided to try it out here. You can find really old posts from me in an old 'Combat 101' thread here. I remember in one of them saying something like: 'Okay, that worked. That worked well. I still don't know how or why it worked, but it did!' Thanks to the ability to watch the auto-fights on browser and a whole bunch of really patient and generous-with-their-knowledge players here, I learned. That's why I'm sure if I can learn it, anyone can.
Even now, I limit myself to turn based combat games (drives my 5yr old grandson insane, lol!), but I don't have the interest or the small motor control to try out real combat games! Roblox is more than I want to deal with, lol!
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
I use kiting when I play games like Total War: Warhammer 2. This is more real time though you can pause it and issue commands to your soldiers. The key when I play these games is eliminate threats and try not to take damage. It is why I find the dangerous troop and kill it and I never rush into battle. I will take a shot or two in round 1 just so that I can bring all 5 of my troops into the battle and eliminate the threats. Mistwalkers go bye after 1 turn though they have already done what they are good at by then. Other LR go next because they move into range of most everything I brought. Golems and Strategists are next and finally HM and Mortars. If a troop is not something easy to take care of I usually accept some losses or bring troops that are resistant to their attacks.

When I autofight I put my troops in a sensible formation. Honestly it is not often I match them up across from each other. I like to put mortars on the wings, LR or Mages flanking the center and HM or more ranged troops in the middle. Of course it is matchup dependant. I try not to put any mages in my lineup when I am facing mostly light enemy troops. This works for me and the reason I bring it up here at all is to see what players who have more experience have to say or contribute to this tactic not to denigrate the tactics illustrated in anybodies posts.

My favorite way to fight is cheese. Check out that gaming term all you retired folks.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Mistwalkers go bye after 1 turn though they have already done what they are good at by then. Other LR go next because they move into range of most everything I brought. Golems and Strategists are next and finally HM and Mortars. If a troop is not something easy to take care of I usually accept some losses or bring troops that are resistant to their attacks.
Yes, exactly. You are eliminating enemies in the order of how fast they encroach your front lines, which is again based on...Initiative, Movement, and Range. Do you see a pattern in this drum (dead horse?) I beat? :)
 

Smooper

Well-Known Member
Yes, I don't disagree with you on that. I just don't march troops out to their death and I rely heavily on what the troop is good against when fighting and defending. Initiative plays little role in what I select. If I don't have a clear path and faster troops, I retreat out of range with my faster troops and wait for them to come to me. Then I can concentrate fire on the most important targets.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Yes, I don't disagree with you on that. I just don't march troops out to their death and I rely heavily on what the troop is good against when fighting and defending. Initiative plays little role in what I select. If I don't have a clear path and faster troops, I retreat out of range with my faster troops and wait for them to come to me. Then I can concentrate fire on the most important targets.
I understand what you are describing here. Knowing max range does not mean you need to spend your max range though. Regardless, autofighters don't have an option to give troops marching orders. Hence, understanding attack and containment zones as dictated by Initiative, movement, and range and fighting by probability is still applicable to all, but your example is still only limited to manual battles.

Also, you do realize you keep saying Initiative plays little role in your strategy, yet the examples you use are requires the application of Initiative. For example, if you sit back, you're opting to let people who act after you move first. If you "kite" successfully, then ideally, you need to run away and fire before the enemy acts. Otherwise, they've already hit you and you're not exactly doing a good job staying out of harm's way. Nobody will have a good time trying to "kite" a Mist Walker. :) Both those examples requires applying the order of action, which is dictated by Initiative.

Again, you're not wrong. There are situations where staying put is a good idea. However, there are probably just as many situations where that would also get you in trouble too though, most notably in the upper provinces. I will likely not be covering manual battle examples by specific scenarios as that could likely go on forever and still not even scratch the surface. It's a lot of work to create examples, but target only a very small demographic of manual fighters and also not cover much ground. To make such an effort would feel like I'm spinning in place on granny gear, which I will leave for the grannies that get offended reading this sentence. :D
 

Starr621

Member
I was playing a manual battle on one of my smaller cities and 1 single mist walker kited all 5 of my axe barbarians and killed them LMAO. Well to be fair Axe Barbarians are good for one thing which is scouting fights with a mist walker in the lineup. That way I can still see the map because they are utterly useless for fighting except for small tournament fights.
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Yes, THIS! 150% what you just said. If you understand starting position, you can ween off the “brute force” method of one unit type for all 5 slots in autofights. And if someone doesn’t do the all-5-same strategy, they might be using mostly a Combat Pentagon led strategy. However, the longer a fight takes to conclude, the more likely it devolved into a melee brawl. Range units become very vulnerable and ineffective in a melee brawl. The higher up you go in tourney, the longer the fights take to conclude. Therefore, you need to adjust for possibly needing to sprinkle more melee units into the mix the further/deeper you go into Tourney. A fight with the same grouping of enemies in the same positions in Province 24 shouldn’t necessarily be fought using the same troop selections in Province 4. However, both the all-5-same and Combat Pentagon method would steer you to do so. Understanding starting position, movements/initiative/range would inform you not to do so.

Of course, this is if you want to improve fighting technically. One can also drop enough buff buildings to throw finesse out the window and do just as well. As one of the top tourney guys in my FS told me, “You don’t need to feed the Fire Phoenix if you drop enough buffs.” Not everyone has a lvl 30 Timewarp and can stretch buff buildings for 2 weeks… :rolleyes:

Thank you. You have no idea how frustrated I get with people who don't understand this and think you always want range or that one strategy works for all battles.

At the same time, I still think the brown bear is a waste of pet food, since you can compensate by using up more time boosters, and I'd rather use some extra time boosters if it saves me a valuable pet food. Pet food is for the fire phoenix, since I can't replicate that with time boosters. If I had more, I'd use them on a red panda to get more diamonds, but right now, I'm too stingy for that.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I was playing a manual battle on one of my smaller cities and 1 single mist walker kited all 5 of my axe barbarians and killed them LMAO. Well to be fair Axe Barbarians are good for one thing which is scouting fights with a mist walker in the lineup. That way I can still see the map because they are utterly useless for fighting except for small tournament fights.
Normally, you'd scout with the highest initiative unit so nobody can fire at you, but since no one goes before Mist Walker so you might as well send in cannon fodder. Sword Dancers have all the problems of Axe Barbs with half the punch. So annoying. I also don't bother scouting anymore. It takes long enough to get through 2 cities of tourney and some days doing multiple rounds. I'm autofighting my 2nd city cause I can't be bothered.

At the same time, I still think the brown bear is a waste of pet food, since you can compensate by using up more time boosters, and I'd rather use some extra time boosters if it saves me a valuable pet food. Pet food is for the fire phoenix, since I can't replicate that with time boosters. If I had more, I'd use them on a red panda to get more diamonds, but right now, I'm too stingy for that.
If you're late enough chapter to have Simia and Timewarp, there will be some relief on Pet Food. Timewarp and Polar Bear means less Pet Food needed for Fire Phoenix, which means more Pet Food for everyone else. Simia does the job of Brown Bear without the Pet Food at least, but most players aren't far enough yet for a Simia, but will have access to Brown Bear. I also feel like if I'm going to use timers on troops, then I might as well get another 50% more bang for the buck by feeding Brown Bear. Then I wouldn't need to feed Brown Bear or use timers every week. I'm currently net gaining on Pet Food each week, but it'll still be another 5yrs before I have enough to catch up to beast mode hoarders like sami and helya (she's not a hoarder, just incredibly well prepared).
 

ekarat

Well-Known Member
Normally, you'd scout with the highest initiative unit so nobody can fire at you, but since no one goes before Mist Walker so you might as well send in cannon fodder. Sword Dancers have all the problems of Axe Barbs with half the punch. So annoying. I also don't bother scouting anymore. It takes long enough to get through 2 cities of tourney and some days doing multiple rounds. I'm autofighting my 2nd city cause I can't be bothered.


If you're late enough chapter to have Simia and Timewarp, there will be some relief on Pet Food. Timewarp and Polar Bear means less Pet Food needed for Fire Phoenix, which means more Pet Food for everyone else. Simia does the job of Brown Bear without the Pet Food at least, but most players aren't far enough yet for a Simia, but will have access to Brown Bear. I also feel like if I'm going to use timers on troops, then I might as well get another 50% more bang for the buck by feeding Brown Bear. Then I wouldn't need to feed Brown Bear or use timers every week. I'm currently net gaining on Pet Food each week, but it'll still be another 5yrs before I have enough to catch up to beast mode hoarders like sami and helya (she's not a hoarder, just incredibly well prepared).

I got into a big argument with someone on another thread about this, but it comes down to two facts:
1) I don't have a polar bear.
2) I have real-life constraints that prevent from from reliably seeing all 4 MA cycles/day. I end up with about 2 pet food / week + a little more if I'm lucky.

So, I've been using timewarp only to get tourney and spire done with 2 fire phoenix feedings / week. This has forced me to be very, very stingy and careful where I spent pet food.

As part of my prioritizing, I realized that while extra troops are great, I can get the same effect by throwing more time boosters at it, whereas I can't get attack bonuses (fire phoenix) or diamonds (red panda) by throwing more boosters at the problem. So, I consider the brown bear to be "nice to have" (if you have the pet food for it) rather than "must have."

The one thing I've been trying (and oftimes failing) to remember is to consider healing between waves at the end of the spire, since the stack sizes are large -- I estimated the last fight of the spire having a stack size roughly equivalent to province 30. Not to mention that healing between waves really reduces troop loss from those later waves.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I estimated the last fight of the spire having a stack size roughly equivalent to province 30.
It's around province 20 according to MinMax's Tourney/Spire Calculator Spreadsheet. BUT...it is 3 waves. However, each successive wave gets wimpier though. The interesting thing with the math on the 3 wave battles is that you always start with a numbers advantage, whereas you start as underdog in the 2 wave battles. In theory then, if you can skip through round 1 with minimal damage, you can carry that numbers advantage into round 2. So if you're going to use Vitality Surge, after round 1 makes a greater difference than after round 2. Though understandably, sometimes you just gotta surge to limp through.
 

Starr621

Member
Normally, you'd scout with the highest initiative unit so nobody can fire at you, but since no one goes before Mist Walker so you might as well send in cannon fodder. Sword Dancers have all the problems of Axe Barbs with half the punch. So annoying. I also don't bother scouting anymore. It takes long enough to get through 2 cities of tourney and some days doing multiple rounds. I'm autofighting my 2nd city cause I can't be bothered.


If you're late enough chapter to have Simia and Timewarp, there will be some relief on Pet Food. Timewarp and Polar Bear means less Pet Food needed for Fire Phoenix, which means more Pet Food for everyone else. Simia does the job of Brown Bear without the Pet Food at least, but most players aren't far enough yet for a Simia, but will have access to Brown Bear. I also feel like if I'm going to use timers on troops, then I might as well get another 50% more bang for the buck by feeding Brown Bear. Then I wouldn't need to feed Brown Bear or use timers every week. I'm currently net gaining on Pet Food each week, but it'll still be another 5yrs before I have enough to catch up to beast mode hoarders like sami and helya (she's not a hoarder, just incredibly well prepared).

I generally scout with 2 rangers (I keep an extra one in case I accidentally click on a battle tile) unless there's a mist walker. It's funny because I actually just realized earlier this week that I almost never use my axe barbarians and I would avoid scouting fights with mist walkers so using barbarians for mist walker scouts now works perfectly lol

Also, I'm still hoarding as much pet food and military buildings as I can until I unlock Timewarp. Even with my stash, it's largely dependent on RNG from MA (and Dwarven Armorers from Spire) and I really wish there were more opportunities to earn pet food.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Also, I'm still hoarding as much pet food and military buildings as I can until I unlock Timewarp. Even with my stash, it's largely dependent on RNG from MA (and Dwarven Armorers from Spire) and I really wish there were more opportunities to earn pet food.
My main city is bum rushing Simia and Timewarp right now. My Timewarp is high enough to save an extra Pet Food each week already BUT...I'm now having to re-adjust the pacing of the condensed schedule. I am saving on Pet Food, but not making enough troops in time to do tourney in just 3 days instead of 5. So keep in mind, Timewarp will initially alleviate one problem, but create another until you also get Simia up to par too.

My second city has the benefit of hindsight and not repeating mistakes. I catered until I got to Orcs. Now it has twice as much pet food as my main city and hundreds of military support buildings in inventory to weather any dry spells in MA.

Before the introduction of runes for KPs, wonders took a LOT longer to build. Between getting Bulwark at end of Dwarf, it prob takes a chapter or so to get it running with enough levels to feel it kicking in. Prior to Bulwark, I simply ran out of room for armories trying to extend my troop queue. You really just can’t make back enough troops weekly to do too much. At which point, I concluded I might as well just save them for when I can go all out fight and cater for the time being. Not really worth feeding Fire Phoenix or dropping buffs for just 15 provinces to me, which is about how many were available. I’ll save all the Pet Food and buff buildings for when I need to do 20+ regularly at later chapters when I need to put them down. Cost of catering is still pretty low to get you pretty far in early chapters. Now wonders are a snap to build with Runes in an active FS, so the tipping point might come much earlier than Orcs chapter.

Of course, if you are trying to learn to fight, especially if you only have one city, you’d probably want to try fighting sooner rather than later. With hindsight, I would prob modify this a little and do whatever you want with the first 5 provinces (cater or fight), and then fight 6-10. Cater again to whatever. The first 5 are too easy. You can be so sloppy and still win. Province 6-10 is a good sweet spot to learn bare knuckle manual fighting without buffs and Fire Phoenix though. It’s starting to be more on equal footing so you need to get better at troop selection, but if you lose the encounter, it won’t gobble up so many troops to make you weep and paralyzed for the week. It’s like a safe zone to fail in, which is an ideal environment for learning. Fighting province 11-15 without buffing is still somewhat doable, but more iffy. It will start to hurt in the dead troops department whether you win or lose though, esp in those early chapters! If you can get the basics down without buffing, fighting will only gets easier as you progress because units get more promotions and you get more toys to buff them with. You’ll also get so much better at efficiency because you are not relying on buffing but your core skills more. I haven’t needed to touch my Dwarven Armorer inventory yet either. You’ll need buffing to get to Province 20 and beyond so when your city is ready to do those regularly, you’ll have the Pet Food and buff buildings to play with.
 

Zoof

Well-Known Member
Probably not the perfect place to put this, but I've recently and personally acquainted myself with the idea of plopping down a bunch of baby armories to improve Training Size, synergizing quite wonderfully with Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms by upgrading those baby armories as far as they'll go without changing size. I'm rather enamored with the results and wanted to share this for those who may have missed it in some of the other guides out there.

The armories that I plopped down, each at lv 4:

1659202513523.png


The results, as compared against a lv 30 Dwarven Bulwark (with Squad Size upgrade 32 and all prior researched) and a lv 23 Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms:

1659202562208.png


Let's try to do a little comparison to a somewhat equivalent set of 3 lv 23 armories (since that's what I have stored) and 3 lv 20 armories (since that'll make one more thing equal). This also assumes there are adjacent roads for servicing, so any additional roads used in calculations

-Land UseArmory Training SizeTS boosted by lv 23 SSSPopulation UseCulture Use
15 lv 460+9901920405720
3 lv 2075390192029766822
3 lv 2375480228040149348

It should be noted that the values that I'm using are from Elves, though at my particular stage of gameplay, there's no difference. There's also no difference at the lowest end of things, being that both Humans and Elves has 2x2 Armories up to lv 4.

It should also be noted that usually there's a cost in terms of space when going with the baby armory strat. More work needs to be done to determine actual cost to benefit across the entire spectrum of gameplay from the earliest chapters to the latest ones, but the main point should be that there's usually a (rather steep) savings when comparing population/culture

At this point, this advice is only reasonably usable if you crunch the numbers for yourself and determine that any additional costs of doing this for where you're at in the game is beneficial enough for you to try.

For me, though? Combined with a lv 30 Needles of the Tempest (which is giving me a +100% Barracks Training Speed), the Training Size is comfortable enough for me to pat myself on the back and tell myself "Yeppers! Now I can get a good night's rest without worrying about running out"

1659204395192.png


EDIT: It should also be noted that going the small armory route means that if you're past chapter 9, you aren't making orcs this way.
TODO: Recalculate cost/benefit in terms of land use when Orc Nests has to be deployed to make up for loss of orcs made via Armories
 

Ravmin

Member
@crackie great tips for learning to fight and thank you for all of your precious free time you have spent putting together The Crack Guide to Fighting.

I have recently scouted enough to reach 30+ provinces in tourney, just unlocked Amuni. Up until now tourney has been pretty easy. For the past few chapters auto fighting with a dwarven armorer/uuu, 1 mmm, 1 elr and catering the few that I feel I would lose a lot of troops has served me well. These higher level tourney provinces have me searching for a better way. The cost to cater is high and the provinces where I think I have a good match up I'll still lose a bunch of troops.

I've been studying your guide and attempting to apply it. Currently dumping KP into military wonders. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking I just need more temp buff buildings until my wonders are a bit higher level. Wonders are all below lvl 10 except needles is 16. And I should probably not try to do all available provinces every week to level 6.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Probably not the perfect place to put this, but I've recently and personally acquainted myself with the idea of plopping down a bunch of baby armories to improve Training Size, synergizing quite wonderfully with Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms by upgrading those baby armories as far as they'll go without changing size. I'm rather enamored with the results and wanted to share this for those who may have missed it in some of the other guides out there.
Yes, the key is these are temporary and can be quickly built and just as quickly trashed! You can see my baby armories starting to mushroom here post-FA. You'll also notice they're blooming into the space by the festival merchants where a 4th lvl 33 armory (pink and green building) used to be that someone accidentally deleted during FA. :rolleyes: The 4th big armory is still getting rebuilt and only at lvl 16 right now, but the babies are already more than enough to make up for that big oops in the meantime.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I have recently scouted enough to reach 30+ provinces in tourney, just unlocked Amuni. Up until now tourney has been pretty easy. For the past few chapters auto fighting with a dwarven armorer/uuu, 1 mmm, 1 elr and catering the few that I feel I would lose a lot of troops has served me well. These higher level tourney provinces have me searching for a better way. The cost to cater is high and the provinces where I think I have a good match up I'll still lose a bunch of troops.
First remember, you get more bang for your buck doing more rounds than more provinces. 30 provinces to 6* is just about 8000pts. Doing this much tourney and being in the later chapters will be as much about being able to replenish your troops back in time as much as simply winning the encounters. Tech at this point will be the biggest factor in ballooning the troop size. The bigger the stacks used, the more dead troops need to be replaced. If you can't do 30 provinces to 6* sustainably yet, then I would definitely drop down to 25 or 23 to 6* and build up your stamina.

I recommend prioritizing the military wonders that speed up production and buffing the classes that expiring buildings don't cover. For example, Monastery is going to take a boatload of KPs to level it, but it only gets you +1% health or something like that. It's much faster to drop a DA or a UUU. The time/amount of KPs to gain +1% health, you can prob build 2 or 3 levels of other military wonders. You can revisit the Monastery once you get the others jump started a bit more. Similarly, ELR and MMM cover light range and mages, so you want to buff the other classes they don't cover...your heavy range (Toads), light melee (Victory Springs), and heavy melee (Heroe's Forge). A lot of people over-emphasize buffing health, but you want to buff offense too. Otherwise, you're doing the same damage for more rounds, which is prolonging the fight and taking more beating in the process. Buffing offense helps you shorten the fights and take less beating, which in the long run, also saves troops. When the enemy stacks outnumber you like in the upper provinces, you need to compensate by having more punch per unit than them too. Fight with the tank, not the sword, right @Zoof?

I also avoided dropping Hero's Forge for a long time because I also hate heavy melee, but once I was doing the really high provinces regularly, there's no getting around it. You need them for Silk tourney. Since it sounds like you aspire to hit those high provinces regularly too, you'd need to embrace those slow bumbling dolts too.
 

Gkyr

Chef
@crackie you have crafted a better than great battle guide. It is also bullet-proof WRT meta-battles, the kind that occur here in the forum. ;)
I have a small contribution to make and I suppose putting it here is as good as any place else. If you think it is fit to incorporate somewhere, so be it. Namely, the Battle Simulator in elvenarchitect.com.

The Battle Simulator has been 'experimental' for a couple of years now. I bet most players never heard of it. Its big drawback is that it cannot account for the diverse terrain maps that, as we know, make a big difference in battle outcomes. Nevertheless, I made frequent use of it during my first five chapters and I think all beginning fighters ought to know of its existence. After five chapters the questions that the Battle Simulator can answer become internalized and the application becomes moot. Troops become stronger and a little more abundant to produce and so battles are not so dear after the fifth chapter or so.

When one simulates a battle, the result is a win or a defeat and a score. Defeat in the simulator usually mean a defeat on the 'real' battlefield but a Win in the simulator does not always translate to a win on the battlefield, for reasons of lineup position and terrain. The usefulness of the Battle Simulator to me when I was learning was in the score. If I had a question about whether I should array 2 Archers and 3 Golems against an opposing field or whether it should be 3 Archers and 2 Golems, I would simulate both and pick the arrangement with the highest score. Certainly I would also want a 'Win' declaration but usually both arrangements were wins and I would be helped by the highest score. If both choices were defeats I would go back to the drawing board, or cater.

This is the usefulness of the Battle Simulator and the reason that beginning chapter gamers should know about it.
 
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