The Spire is the worst idea you ever had.

[Deleted User - 1625920]

Sounds like a whole new thread to me.
Top money?
Top ranking?
Top of "the heap , king of the hill" ?
Sorry I should be stopped sometimes....

 

[Ashrem]

@Ashrem There's an interesting question here. What actually *is* a top player? How is that defined?

It doesn't need it's own definition. "Top" is meaningless outside of some sort of competition (whether that aspect of the game is intended to be competitive or not). If you are interested in anything about elvenar that has a competitive element, the top players in that category will have more spenders than non-spenders. (Even if that "spending" comes in the form of pushing or diamond mining)

 

[qaccy]

@Ashrem That's just it, though. Elvenar does have a lot of competitive aspects, even if most of them aren't promoted or rewarded in any way. We're competitive by nature. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone playing who can honestly say they aren't competing against someone or something because that's just how we are. And in a competition, there's always gotta be a 'top' for it. Top isn't really meaningless since it's something a lot of players are thinking about while they're playing. My asking the question was because there are so many ways to consider it, I was curious what YOU personally consider a 'top' player to be.

 

[Ashrem]

@Ashrem That's just it, though. Elvenar does have a lot of competitive aspects, even if most of them aren't promoted or rewarded in any way. We're competitive by nature. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone playing who can honestly say they aren't competing against someone or something because that's just how we are. And in a competition, there's always gotta be a 'top' for it. Top isn't really meaningless since it's something a lot of players are thinking about while they're playing. My asking the question was because there are so many ways to consider it, I was curious what YOU personally consider a 'top' player to be.

If you're going to be overly broad, of course we're competing. If we aren't overcoming obstacles, there's no point playing. I have zero difficulty finding someone who isn't competing against someone else, because I pay zero attention to scores or ranks in any aspect of the game. I don't even notice my position in the tournament any more, unless I have an unusually hi score and check it out of curiosity, I still don't care what the number is.

There are all kinds of "top" players in the game depending what you care about at the moment. I've made it past the third boss in the Spire repeatedly. I've no doubt some people consider that to be a "top" player, even though I never negotiate a single waypoint. When I posted, I quoted the post I was referring to, and took issue with implication in that post that someone who can trade 100,000 goods at will (which I do consistnatly to avoid having 10 or 20 slots in my notifications taking up by accepted trades) is a top player and have lost touch with players who are just getting started.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

The top players are more often than not big diamond spenders, and may or may not have been around for a long time, but they have always been playing a different game than the rest of us, even when they were new players.

I once reached 50th placed with only the starter package (10$ 1400 diamonds) which at that time was worth 2 builders. and thats it.
Does that qualify myself as a diamond player? or not?

@qaccy indeed what is a top player, I think there are 2 types of players, competitive players and casual players.
the first love leaderboards and try to find ways to improve, others are just building city's.

On both end of the spectrum I have seen massive diamond spenders.
And there is the special breed, those who love the leaderboard but can't be bothered with working for it, throwing money towards it like a mad person,

On my main server we have a player who does that with 5! accounts. 1 Wallet to rule the fist page
I don't mind, I just wait patiently and take my time to find ways to surpass that player some day , I did manage to get in second place once for a while, and I wonder where I will end when I finish rebuilding my city to top specs again

 

[Ashrem]

I once reached 50th placed with only the starter package (10$ 1400 diamonds) which at that time was worth 2 builders. and thats it.
Does that qualify myself as a diamond player? or not?

If you spent, you spent, but I didn't say diamond spenders.

more often than not big diamond spenders

I said "more often than not big diamond spenders"
as in, not all of them, but more than half of them spend a significant amount.
I think it's fair to say that you would be in the smaller group, though I did also talk about spending in relation amount of effort one puts in to generating diamonds through things like wishing well farms, which I don't know if you've done.

 

[Nectar of the Gods]

I'm not entering into who said what to whom. I do want to say that I disagree with the thread title and beginning post. I understand that some people may feel that way. I happen to like the Spire.

When I first heard about it I was skeptical. But it has proven beneficial to my cities, all the way from my tiny Chapter 3 town (I couldn't wait to make Chapter 3 so I could access it and pull myself out of the hole Inno leaves new people in to perish) to my cities in Halflings. I'm sane in how I use it. I have only completed the first and second levels. Usually I only complete the first. The first two weeks was a learning curve in how to best fight and handle negotiations. But once I got it down I found the fights are not that hard except for the occasional one that is set up so you can't win it. And the negotiations are doable as long as you make sure you have enough goods, gold, and supplies on hand to spend. I rarely have to spend diamonds to clear a negotiation and I always have a surplus of diamonds at the end of the Spire because I won't overextend myself and I win diamonds along the way. I use the Spire in events for both spell fragments and CC spells. It has been a wonderful addition to my game play. I have gained a lot of good from the Spire. Do you know that if you win the Moonstone Library and some of the other set buildings that the library produces a tier 1 good, spell fragments, and a combining catalyst? The little set buildings that connect to it produce tier 2 goods and supplies or mana, and seeds, depending on your city level. I think that is wicked awesome.

I fretted over the plan to make the Spire Multi-player. But now that I understand what they have done and how it works, I can't see a reason anyone is complaining about it. It is like the manufacturing challenges. You get prizes for doing what you normally do anyway. There is no downside to it that I can see. If you are playing the Spire then your points for clearing chests goes to the fellowship pool. Every person in the fellowship who plays has their points automatically added to the total. There is no effort on anyone's part. It is done automatically. I think the only thing that will be difficult for some people is clearing enough chests to reach the highest level of prizes attained by the fellowship. I can see some people in a FS not being able to get all the rewards. And I think that is kind of sad. But then again, it goes by effort expended. So I don't know. I like the FAs and tourneys were everyone gets a prize who participates. I wish the Spire was like that, too. But overall, I think the new addition to the Spire is going to be great. Who doesn't want more prizes?

I remember playing when there were no wishing wells or portal profits to help out. Things used to take a lot longer without time boosts, too. We win diamonds in the MA and in the Spire. There are more event buildings that supply diamonds as well. The Inno devs are bringing some good things to the players. Sure, this current event is lame. And there are too many events too close together. But the Spire? No. I really enjoy the Spire and hope it stays.

That's my two cents. Thanks for the Spire, Inno!

 

[KarlD]

I didn't like the Spire at first. It seemed too expensive and I swore I wouldn't do it anymore. But come Sunday when it would start I'd start doing it anyway cuz I didn't have anything better to do and the first 8 encounters are very doable. Then I'd just find myself doing it for the challenge, but also for the unique prizes. I'm in Chapter 15 so I probably do have some advantages in terms of available troops, troop production, and production of goods. I'm a better than average fighter, but some of the fights don't seem worth fighting and I negotiate and occasionally I have to pay diamonds. I probably shouldn't pay and should just start over cuz I have lots of goods (at least basic ones), but still I am net positive in diamonds from what I've won in crafting (which the spire facilitates with spell fragments and CC spells), what I've won in the Spire, and what I've won with a genie and a couple of wishing wells. As long as I'm not having to buy diamonds just to participate I'm happy. I managed to win enough diamonds that I was able to buy a magic workshop and with 1200 diamonds another magic workshop is in sight.

Now with the multiplayer aspect of the Spire there are even more prizes for the same effort that I was putting in it before plus I like helping the fellowship do better like with winning more chests in the tournament. There are a lot of diamonds and other prizes to be won if your fellowship is very active in the Spire. Last week I won 18 5-hr instants, 12 CC spells, 50 diamonds, and a 10% portal profit in the group prizes. That's on top of the individual prizes as I progressed through. Those time instants can be used to produce 90 hours (or 135 hours with a level 10 Brown Bear) of troops to help facilitate participating. I think now with the fellowship level prizes it's well worth going as far as you can in the Spire.

 

[KarlD]

I think the only thing that will be difficult for some people is clearing enough chests to reach the highest level of prizes attained by the fellowship. I can see some people in a FS not being able to get all the rewards. And I think that is kind of sad. But then again, it goes by effort expended. So I don't know. I like the FAs and tourneys were everyone gets a prize who participates. I wish the Spire was like that, too. But overall, I think the new addition to the Spire is going to be great. Who doesn't want more prizes?

While you think it's sad that folks who participate the least don't get the maximum prizes I think that is a benefit. It encourages people to try harder both for themselves and the fs. We typically complete 10 tourney chests (this week I have some doubts), but it is kind of annoying when someone will do only 30 points and get the full benefit. It's like they just showed up to take advantage of the 10 chests, but not put in even a modicum of time or effort or resources to help the fs. I think the Spire strikes a good balance and there are still good prizes to be had for a low level of participation. I would love for the fs to work hard enough so that we could win 175 diamonds each week by reaching the top of the Spire. I don't think I will ever see that happen, but it would be nice.

 

[Matrickz]

Some method of logic or clues on what to spend would be nice

 

[KarlD]

Some method of logic or clues on what to spend would be nice

If you are trying to convince spirits I would say to start off using as many different types of goods as possible on the first guess. If some goods are not needed I would say to introduce any other goods that haven't been tried yet and make sure to switch goods offered to each spirit so that you never offer the same type of good to the same spirit more than once. That's about all the advice I have. I'd love to hear about any strategies too, but I think it's too complicated to easily come up with the best approach for the many different possibilities. For instance there was one time where after the first round I definitely knew what a particular spirit wanted, but there were some goods I hadn't even tried yet and didn't know what the other spirits wanted. I decided that it would be better to offer an untried good to that known spirit to determine if that good was needed by one of the other spirits. That approach could cost me more goods than absolutely necessary, but I had more goods than diamonds and felt that was the better move to solve the puzzle in the 3 tries. So considerations like that and many others are what make it difficult to describe a straight forward strategy.

 

[Deleted User - 4262106]

When negotiating, I offer the same good to all at the same time. No muss, no fuss, over in a couple of seconds. I do Guild Expedition in FOE like this, and I do Spire like this. But to each their own.

 

[Ashrem]

When negotiating, I offer the same good to all at the same time. No muss, no fuss, over in a couple of seconds. I do Guild Expedition in FOE like this, and I do Spire like this. But to each their own.

How far are you going? Some of the later spire encounters have at least six different options (maybe 8?). If you guess wrong, you'd need about 75 diamonds for every spirit, not to mention thousands of sentient goods and seeds.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

How far are you going? Some of the later spire encounters have at least six different options (maybe 8?). If you guess wrong, you'd need about 75 diamonds for every spirit, not to mention thousands of sentient goods and seeds.

Every Week 3rd level 2nd prize (8th encounter)

• somtimes you just give up after the second or even the first try because the chance of solving it is to low, back off try again and savce your goods from being spend on fruitless 3rd tries.
• those 125 free diamonds from the guild rewards can be freely spend on buying an aditional turn(25 diamonds), but only buy it if it makes sense and you are guaranteed to success.
• Yes you need many many many goodies, thats a fact you can't go around, but where else do you spend those tournamet rewards at? those magical manufactoring spells and hammerspells, there to be used, I am happy I finally found a good reason to actually use them instead of stockpiling them indefinitely

 

[KarlD]

When negotiating, I offer the same good to all at the same time. No muss, no fuss, over in a couple of seconds. I do Guild Expedition in FOE like this, and I do Spire like this. But to each their own.

Using the same goods for every spirit is certainly the easiest and fastest way to go, but I think it will require more diamonds and goods overall. In the early parts of the Spire where there are only 3 or 4 goods to choose from it might not be a big difference, but I think in later levels when there are more goods to choose from the cost of going the fast and easy route gets significantly higher. Do you feel that you win more diamonds in the Spire than you spend? How far do you usually go? Beyond Level 1 (first 4 gates)?

 

[KarlD]

Every Week 3rd level 2nd prize (8th encounter)

• somtimes you just give up after the second or even the first try because the chance of solving it is to low, back off try again and savce your goods from being spend on fruitless 3rd tries.
• those 125 free diamonds from the guild rewards can be freely spend on buying an aditional turn(25 diamonds), but only buy it if it makes sense and you are guaranteed to success.
• Yes you need many many many goodies, thats a fact you can't go around, but where else do you spend those tournamet rewards at? those magical manufactoring spells and hammerspells, there to be used, I am happy I finally found a good reason to actually use them instead of stockpiling them indefinitely

Under what circumstances do you feel you should give up after only the first round? Is it because you didn't get any of the Spirits right? Or perhaps because too many goods were not needed and it leaves too many possibilities to have to figure out on the next 2 rounds? I don't think I've ever given up after the first round, but maybe I sometimes should. Sometimes it looks terrible after the first round and then everything changes in the second round, but maybe the odds say it's better to cut losses after only the first round. I'd like any insight as to when that is.

 

[Ashrem]

Every Week 3rd level 2nd prize (8th encounter)

Are you Captain Asgard? Or are you saying that you also offer a single good to each spirit every time? I didn't say there was anything wrong with negotiating, I question whether the strategy of offering one good to all spirits works for any depth in the Spire.

 

[Deleted User - 4262106]

How far are you going? Some of the later spire encounters have at least six different options (maybe 8?). If you guess wrong, you'd need about 75 diamonds for every spirit, not to mention thousands of sentient goods and seeds.

Using the same goods for every spirit is certainly the easiest and fastest way to go, but I think it will require more diamonds and goods overall. In the early parts of the Spire where there are only 3 or 4 goods to choose from it might not be a big difference, but I think in later levels when there are more goods to choose from the cost of going the fast and easy route gets significantly higher. Do you feel that you win more diamonds in the Spire than you spend? How far do you usually go? Beyond Level 1 (first 4 gates)?

Are you both assuming that I only negotiate?

 

[Ashrem]

Are you both assuming that I only negotiate?

No. I'm assuming that a strategy of offering a single good to every spirit in even one encounter at higher levels would be horrendously expensive, and that inexperienced players who try it could quickly bleed themselves dry of goods. It's a perfectly valid strategy when there are only three options, since it guarantees success, but when you have more than three, it is exponentially more costly.

 

[Deleted User - 4262106]

No. I'm assuming that a strategy of offering a single good to every spirit in even one encounter at higher levels would be horrendously expensive, and that inexperienced players who try it could quickly bleed themselves dry of goods. It's a perfectly valid strategy when there are only three options, since it guarantees success, but when you have more than three, it is exponentially more costly.

I wasn't suggesting that it would work for everyone...I would never be so arrogant to suggest that my way is the best way. I was only saying that this is what I do when I negotiate. And yes, I use it even when there is way more than four options, because guessing what the NPCs want it a waste of my time.