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Your Elvenar Team
This is why I typically don't do much in the Scrolls Tournament.
- Thread starter qaccy
- Start date
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
That was probably the fault of the terrain. If the ranged units can keep terrain in between them and the melee units, then the melee unit losses will be a lot higher. This is also why the cerberus are almost always better than the regular melee once both are promoted to three stars, because their superior movement gets them around obstacles and to the enemy units faster.
mucksterme
Oh Wise One
I would have either gone with all dogs or maybe archers.
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
True, except regular melee can be free (Dwarven Bulwark), unlike Cerberus units
Regular melee makes a good cannon fodder in the early stages of the tournament. Losses would be high, but free is free.juniperknome
Well-Known Member
never use heavy troops when a mage is present
juniperknome
Well-Known Member
qaccy
Well-Known Member
I think the point I made in my original post still stands. Against nothing but units you have an advantage against, losses would not be that high using just about any other unit type. If I was using mages against a squad of cannons and a squad of knights; archers against a squad of knights and a squad of abbots; paladins against a squad of hellhounds and a squad of orc deserters; even mortars against a squad of ancient orcs and a squad of dryads, I wouldn't lose more than half a squad.
However you want to scrutinize it, I will maintain that light melee units are the absolute worst unit type in the game. All of them are profoundly affected/crippled by terrain, and even themselves due to this game treating units as physical obstacles that cannot be passed. It doesn't matter if they're 'strong' against archers if the archers get two or even three shots off on them before they manage to close the distance. Cerberus do manage to get around this in most cases due to their movement practically making them a 'ranged' unit, but that only diminishes the weakness and doesn't remove it.
However you want to scrutinize it, I will maintain that light melee units are the absolute worst unit type in the game. All of them are profoundly affected/crippled by terrain, and even themselves due to this game treating units as physical obstacles that cannot be passed. It doesn't matter if they're 'strong' against archers if the archers get two or even three shots off on them before they manage to close the distance. Cerberus do manage to get around this in most cases due to their movement practically making them a 'ranged' unit, but that only diminishes the weakness and doesn't remove it.
Pheryll
Set Designer
Sorceresses do not fair that well either and mortars with their high damage spread do in fact critically fail at times. I think the axe barbarian is a terrible unit, and the sword dancer outshines it (even though the Elvenar quest dialog/tips claim the barbarian as an excellent unit for the humans). Bad units can happen, but that does not mean their isn't a use for the entire category that they belong to. Over the entire cycle of 9 tournaments the units I use the least are the light ranged not the light melee.
Alistaire
Well-Known Member
Yes, scrolls difficulty is out of line with the other tournaments, no matter what troops you use. As far as I know this has been more or less common knowledge a long time though, and you can see even the top performers are mostly lower numbers than you see any other tournament.
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
This was the case for me when I was mostly using single primary unit for the whole tournament - then light ranged would be used only in steel IIRC. Now, I use LR a ton - any time I see a congregation of enemy mages I throw LR at them, and with damage boost from the Needles of the Tempest and the Fire Phoenix they deal with that quite well. Cerberus might be good or even better in these circumstances as well, but I get crapton of LR for free from AW - unlike Cerberus units that get cleaned up completely in scrolls and dust tournaments.
Pheryll
Set Designer
I do not limit LR to steel, but the free unit that I have the most is the golem from my Toad Temple. The golem does great in scrolls due to that tournament's heavy focus on light ranged; but there are plenty of other uses. Unlike you, I do not have the SSS, so there is less of an application for light ranged when better units are often the blossom mage, which can take care of heavy melee/light melee combos without losses, and cerberus which not only takes down mages but disrupts formation. If I get solid mages, then solid ranger is the easy counter; but I do not see many of those.
ajqtrz
Chef - loquacious Old Dog
From reading all this it appears to me that the one factor that makes a difference is the terrain. I have posted elsewhere of my desire for a terrain map or preview so you can plan the fight effectively. In an open terrain there is not place to hide and no place to get around when you wish to get there. Thus, in an open terrain the distance is crucial and the faster melee troops close the distance the stronger they strike. Once you start putting obstacles in the way the melee troops are at a disadvantage, obviously, as they are actually farther from their targets and the extra distance will mean they take more damage from ranged troops and mages before the melee can get to them.
Now it's been pointed out that you can set up your troops, go see the terrain, and then cancel. Then set up the troops again according to your battle plan. My problem with that is two things. First, I don't like wasting the time (which is one reason I'm not a great fighter) and second, my memory is pretty good but the exact shape and placement of the obstacles is not always remembered when I return to set up my troops again. A simple map of the terrain on the troop selection screen would solve both problems.
In addition, if you use just one type of troop in a battle the order of things is immaterial. However, placing your troops according to a battle plan would mean you might do a lot better if you used at least two types. I tend to put my ranged and mages in FRONT because I want them to attack first.and am willing they be used to draw out the melee of the other side before I send in my slower moving unites. I think this flies in the face of generally accepted best practices and maybe it's why I'm not a good fighter. I'm still learning.
Finally, it would be nice if the computations were easier. Given all the variances to really do well you either have to do it a lot and develop an intuition about relative troop strengths, terrain, strengths and weaknesses, etc (which is, I believe the way good fighters go), or you have to do a lot of laborious calculations, spend the time entering the details of the enemies and your troops for each encounter into one of the various battle calculators. All of which takes an inordinate amount of time and, in my opinion, isn't much fun.
So my suggestions? 1) Get Inno to put a map on the troop selection screen. 2) Give us a easy way to enter the data of our troops and the enemy troops on that screen to calculate the odds of success for each iteration of our troops. This is something every field officer does in any battle in RL (or should, for heavens sake). 3) Once we scout a province allow us to mouse over it to see the 4 terrains and the troop counts of that province to see if we want to attempt it or not. (After all, doesn't the "scouting" of the province suggest in RL we'd have this information?) Maybe these should have been in the suggestions thread but I'm sure if they should have been somebody will move them and chide me for putting them in the wrong place. LOL!
AJ
Now it's been pointed out that you can set up your troops, go see the terrain, and then cancel. Then set up the troops again according to your battle plan. My problem with that is two things. First, I don't like wasting the time (which is one reason I'm not a great fighter) and second, my memory is pretty good but the exact shape and placement of the obstacles is not always remembered when I return to set up my troops again. A simple map of the terrain on the troop selection screen would solve both problems.
In addition, if you use just one type of troop in a battle the order of things is immaterial. However, placing your troops according to a battle plan would mean you might do a lot better if you used at least two types. I tend to put my ranged and mages in FRONT because I want them to attack first.and am willing they be used to draw out the melee of the other side before I send in my slower moving unites. I think this flies in the face of generally accepted best practices and maybe it's why I'm not a good fighter. I'm still learning.
Finally, it would be nice if the computations were easier. Given all the variances to really do well you either have to do it a lot and develop an intuition about relative troop strengths, terrain, strengths and weaknesses, etc (which is, I believe the way good fighters go), or you have to do a lot of laborious calculations, spend the time entering the details of the enemies and your troops for each encounter into one of the various battle calculators. All of which takes an inordinate amount of time and, in my opinion, isn't much fun.
So my suggestions? 1) Get Inno to put a map on the troop selection screen. 2) Give us a easy way to enter the data of our troops and the enemy troops on that screen to calculate the odds of success for each iteration of our troops. This is something every field officer does in any battle in RL (or should, for heavens sake). 3) Once we scout a province allow us to mouse over it to see the 4 terrains and the troop counts of that province to see if we want to attempt it or not. (After all, doesn't the "scouting" of the province suggest in RL we'd have this information?) Maybe these should have been in the suggestions thread but I'm sure if they should have been somebody will move them and chide me for putting them in the wrong place. LOL!
AJ
WizardKrieg
Active Member
Scrolls has always been my hardest tournament, thought it was just me....guess not.
qaccy
Well-Known Member
It's true that light range are the 'preferred' unit type in only one tournament (compared to two tournaments for each of the other unit types), but in that tournament they absolutely clean up - because the counter unit in that tournament is the NPC version of the barbarian, which is hardly a threat at all. The last steel tournament I did every province I had available to the full 6 rounds, and I was sending in my LR units even against up to 4 squads of thieves and coming away with a victory (the battles also contained 2 squads of mages, otherwise I would have probably sent in mortars). I train cerberus for the dust tournament, but for scrolls I don't train anything and instead use it as an off week to do a bit of stockpiling for the other tournaments. I haven't manually trained barbarians in years because any fight I'd use them for, I'd most likely do better using my crossbows. Drone riders sadly don't fare any better.
As an aside, the range of 2 is probably the only reason why paladins and VGs are usable at all. I can't really use my orc warriors in the crystal and silk tournaments because if there's even a single enchantress it's likely that they're never going to be able to catch up to it. I understand that's intended, but at least paladins/VGs are able to catch up much sooner with their extended attack range before they all get picked off.
samidodamage
Buddy Fan Club member
There's a *diplomacy* option that's similar to catering.
juniperknome
Well-Known Member
scroll tournies light melee work best usually in first few encounters then on to Cerberus and finally the long range light range. the division point where you have to change troops can vary but on battle fields with obstructions the light rangers can shoot over and take out the mages
Fayeanne
Well-Known Member
It's funny, in the Heavy Melee tournament I was able to just auto-fight my way through the first page or two of tournament provinces with minimal unit losses. In the Scrolls tournament, auto-fight lost the third battle of the first province.
Yeah. I think I'll cater this tournament.
Yeah. I think I'll cater this tournament.