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    Your Elvenar Team

Thoughts about Arcane Residue...

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
consider 8 weeks of tournament. because and FA only takes place ones every 8 weeks or so, not every week.
So it makes sense that you spend more than 1 week of effort into an FA, as you have 8 weeks instead of 1 week to recover.
To be honest, I've never spent a time instant in the tourney. I know some do, but I don't. The resources I spend in goods and troops are always recovered within a week. The FA takes many weeks to replenish time instants/ccs, and that's with going to the top of the spire nearly every week. I do understand your point, but I still think it's comparing apples and oranges. But I still value your opinion and will think more about it.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
Never once have I spent as many resources on any tournament week as I have on the arcane badge this week, and last week my score in tourney was over 7500. Never once. Yes, it's my choice to help my team maintain its top status, because I care about my team, but that doesn't make it fair of Inno to require that.
It's hard to understand why others can't see this. I understand the way the FA was before was unfavorable but this is just plain torturous, I don't even want to play FA anymore. I wasn't a big fan of it before but I absolutely detest it now and now as soon as I know one is coming it ruins my whole game experience for the whole week before and the week of FA.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
to a certain extend I do agree, but it's a double edged sword.
That group had certain interests that benefit there way of using ebay. you have to be carefull not to listen too much to this group or your focus and target could become this group only.

Imagine what happens in the political world. lobby groups target politiciant to implement things that benefit them specifically and might not be the best for all.

Such a focus group could become a lobby group that benefits those in the lobby group but not the platform as a whole.
That doesn't mean such a group could have a use. powerplayers like myself for example can see the issues of moonstone sets miles ahead. and could show them the issues in the early development phase so that these kind of buildings so not enter the game in there current form.
Beta did exactly that with the Moonstone set and INNO released it as is with no changes suggested from Beta.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
Yeah, they brought out a focus group annually from different parts of the world; I was part of the early ones back in 2002. It's important to have more than one group, from more than one area of the world (it's strange how the same age groups from two different parts of the world can like such different things), and then form a consensus. If every group is telling you something is bad, no matter how fond you are of it as a company, it's probably bad. But relying on one group would not be a good thing, that's true. It sure beats relying on your own company's intuition, though.

Sometimes bad things, are that 1 thing that make it work.
We hate advertisement, if you ask most people there first suggestion would be to get rid of it.
But advertisements pay for a lot of things.

5km/h traffic violations are horrible, it's stupid nitpicking, but remove them and everyone drives 5km/h faster.

Those groups are a nice to have to see things from another perspective it could be a revealing situation but you should always make your own decisions. if you intuition says it's bad for the company either use an A/B test to confirm the position if this is possible or ignore it.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
@tiG23

I learned about the mystical object from this forum when I was in chapter 3. I was doing everything I could to open it as often as possible when the FA was changed and this badge was introduced.

I craft a lot. FA or no FA. I craft less when there is no FA. I skip the PPs, the broken shards, the VVs, the orc strategists, the festival merchants, culture building I already have, RRs, non-CC relics.
Because I skip those things I am able to gradually build up enough of a surplus between FAs to allow me to craft everything during the FA except broken shards and PPs.

It is not easy. But players can run the MA 24/7 by chapter 4. Relics are actually the biggest initial hurdle.

I have three cities two chapter 7 and a chapter 5. My chapter 5 is the only city with moonstone sets out(3).
I respect your opinion, but we do have a difference of opinion. I don't think relics would be as hard for a chapter 4 player as ccs, in order to operate the MA 24/7. Yeah, they're tough, but you can get enough in tourney. The ccs, unless you play spire to the top or at least the 2nd level (and most players don't) are a real pain to acquire. Add to that fact that most level 4 players do not have maxed MAs makes it even harder.

You play differently than most chapter 5-7 players, because you've come to the forum, learned the best tips and applied them to your cities. You've overcome the fear that many players have about the spire (I didn't play spire for the first 8 months I was here, because I thought I detested it and it took some convincing by AtaguS to change my mind.) Most fellowships take baby steps in trying to get their players to do the spire. We instituted a minimum of bronze in spire each week, and silver on "gold push" weeks every 4 weeks. We lost one player, but the ones that never went past the 2nd guardian found themselves able to get to the big boss on the first floor. A few have now even gone past him, something they would have never believed they could do before the new minimums came in. They're thriving. But it takes a long time to convince players to take that plunge, and to teach them how much it will help their game.

Of course, that's another subject ... how much to expect of players and how soon. I guess that requires a lot of thought.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
My exactr wording where it's a ticking timebomb. it's no issue now but it will explode.
off course I also explained why it would explode.

This is off course a bad example as it's blatantly obvious. but the beta community is very muchg skewed towards the hyperactive side. which represent only a fraction of the players.
We had a game designer in the past who listened very well to the "community"

This is why certain safeguards were removed from for example the endless quests. we all know the result of that one do we? (20 mermaids paradise and 8 brown bears anyone?)
Listening "to the community" is not always the right thing to do. it also neglects the 98% of the other players who arent as vocal as the 2%.
There is an easy remedy for that and I know other games do it. They don't let players just join beta, where you end up with a lopsided group. Players are chosen to be beta and that way the company can be sure they have a random sampling of the player base. I can't remember one game company that just lets people join Beta. And normally Beta testing is rotated around the player base so new things are not always tested by the same group.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
It's hard to understand why others can't see this. I understand the way the FA was before was unfavorable but this is just plain torturous, I don't even want to play FA anymore. I wasn't a big fan of it before but I absolutely detest it now and now as soon as I know one is coming it ruins my whole game experience for the whole week before and the week of FA.

If you find it horrible do as many do, take the short route grab the prices and forget it.
nobody is forcing you to spend all your recouces at it, and for the shortest route you don't even need to spend any resources and just play the game with a level 1 factory and workshop wherever you have room.

Your issue only exist if you want to go all out. you cannot expect a car to drive 200 miles and hour and be fuel efficient.
If you hate using CC for an FA become a nice a honda civic instead of a Ford GT

I have looked you up, and I noticed you are in chapter 6.
This is a stage in game where I understand very well the old format might have been more to your liking, but as you advance in game, chapters become longer and it becomes harder and harder to make room. the total annihalation that the old system required also become an enourmous burden. it becomes harder and harder to make space for it.
Also each FA starts to look more like the same, the prizes becomes less interesting and the effort more boring.

I wonder if this new badge is the real issue, or the fact that this is your x FA and this badge is the scape goat of an ever increasing burden the FA has for a tiny prize.
People at my stage of the game rarely play FA's now nor in the past. the word FA is almost foul language.

We did not have teleport spells in the past, so to them FA sounds like I need to destroy my city after which it takes many many months to recover.
This new format is slowly returning the interest for us, because we can now play the game instead of destroy our game.

The combination of new badges and teleport spells makes the new FA much much less of a burden to most players who play it without the competitive part of it.

Players who enjoyed the old format have the opposith response. they had optimised for the old format and enjoyed it, this new format is alien, needs reajustment and that will create opposition.
I think in the end the look how the participation grade is, and I wanna bet that it's a lot higher these days than in the old days.

I also want to bet the return of competition has created more revenue.
and to an extend it forces players to explore parts of the game they might have ignored before, creating again better participation and revenue.

Both of those factors are for them very important measurements of success.

If the FA was introduced in this format and the old never existed we would look completely different at the subject.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
If you find it horrible do as many do, take the short route grab the prices and forget it.
nobody is forcing you to spend all your recouces at it, and for the shortest route you don't even need to spend any resources and just play the game with a level 1 factory and workshop wherever you have room.

Your issue only exist if you want to go all out. you cannot expect a car to drive 200 miles and hour and be fuel efficient.
If you hate using CC for an FA become a nice a honda civic instead of a Ford GT

I have looked you up, and I noticed you are in chapter 6.
This is a stage in game where I understand very well the old format might have been more to your liking, but as you advance in game, chapters become longer and it becomes harder and harder to make room. the total annihalation that the old system required also become an enourmous burden. it becomes harder and harder to make space for it.
Also each FA starts to look more like the same, the prizes becomes less interesting and the effort more boring.

I wonder if this new badge is the real issue, or the fact that this is your x FA and this badge is the scape goat of an ever increasing burden the FA has for a tiny prize.
People at my stage of the game rarely play FA's now nor in the past. the word FA is almost foul language.

We did not have teleport spells in the past, so to them FA sounds like I need to destroy my city after which it takes many many months to recover.
This new format is slowly returning the interest for us, because we can now play the game instead of destroy our game.

The combination of new badges and teleport spells makes the new FA much much less of a burden to most players who play it without the competitive part of it.

Players who enjoyed the old format have the opposith response. they had optimised for the old format and enjoyed it, this new format is alien, needs reajustment and that will create opposition.
I think in the end the look how the participation grade is, and I wanna bet that it's a lot higher these days than in the old days.

I also want to bet the return of competition has created more revenue.
and to an extend it forces players to explore parts of the game they might have ignored before, creating again better participation and revenue.

Both of those factors are for them very important measurements of success.

If the FA was introduced in this format and the old never existed we would look completely different at the subject.
If only it was that easy, I don't decide how much of the FA we do, my Archmage does. And before you say to change FS, I already had that discussion with Soggy! There are very few people praising ARs, so I am not the only one that severely dislikes them.
 
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samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Personally, I despise the arcane residue badge. But I see its value as an equalizer for competitive FS's in the FA.
My FS on Elcy is ranked 37th only because we've been around for over 4yrs; we don't care about rank. Our highest score is 800K+, our lowest just shy of 5K and 4 members are under 20K. We get Silver in the Spire and 10chests/wk in the tourneys. Those small cities as well as members who don't like the Spire and don't do much there definitely struggle with the residue badge and others of us who want the higher FA finish have to do more. That's just how it works in a casual FS.
But we like the FA's. We do not require anyone participate at all and are fine with anyone putting in one badge/stage to get the prizes and be done. This time we have 23 participating, but many of those only put in a few badges and aren't playing now that we're in the pits. We are all totally okay with that!
We always rank in the top 20 and we enjoy trying for top 10; our best ever was 7th. With the introduction of the residue badge, we can still place in the top 20, but making the top 10 is much harder. Since it doesn't just depend on what we are able and willing to do, but also on what other FS's are doing in a particular FA, we just do what we can and are happy with a top 20 finish; ecstatic if we get to top 10!
No, the prizes aren't worth it, but the fun we have is.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
If only it was that easy, I don't decide how much of the FA we do, my Archmage does. And before you say to change FS, I already had that discussion with Soggy! There are very few people praising ARs, so I am not the only one that severely dislikes them.

I am pretty sure, you can find similar numbers if not more that hate to make dwarven badges.
people are a little less vocal about it, but it's always the slowest spot thats filled.

I understand it's not the most liked badge, but they look at it from an individual level.
It's very similar to people saying crafting sucks because there is "nothing" good to make. they have the CC, they have the spellfragments but they refuse to make something "useless" with it for the VV.

But overal I think that badge makes the FA on average more enjoyable overall, it doesn't mean that badge doesnt suck, it doesnt make it fun. but it returned the FA back to a FA for fellowships and not for semi dead towns / fellowships.
It once again allows you to both play the game and do FA and not force you to choose either FA or playing the game.
You still need to make sacrifices and optimisations, but there not so extreme that it's either one or another with no middle in between.
At least I have seen more exitement overall.

I also have 1 fellowship with my small account that is loving the FA, (2x 1st 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd 1x 4th) but no one hates this badge. each of them understands that it's part of the game.
I like to note down that this is on a "young world" this means that the dead town massacre that we have seen on some old worlds never existed there to that extend, still every fellowship that ranked high had 1 or a few specialised cities that where imported into the fellowship when the FA would start.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure, you can find similar numbers if not more that hate to make dwarven badges.
people are a little less vocal about it, but it's always the slowest spot thats filled.

I understand it's not the most liked badge, but they look at it from an individual level.
It's very similar to people saying crafting sucks because there is "nothing" good to make. they have the CC, they have the spellfragments but they refuse to make something "useless" with it for the VV.

But overal I think that badge makes the FA on average more enjoyable overall, it doesn't mean that badge doesnt suck, it doesnt make it fun. but it returned the FA back to a FA for fellowships and not for semi dead towns / fellowships.
It once again allows you to both play the game and do FA and not force you to choose either FA or playing the game.
You still need to make sacrifices and optimisations, but there not so extreme that it's either one or another with no middle in between.
At least I have seen more exitement overall.

I also have 1 fellowship with my small account that is loving the FA, (2x 1st 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd 1x 4th) but no one hates this badge. each of them understands that it's part of the game.
I like to note down that this is on a "young world" this means that the dead town massacre that we have seen on some old worlds never existed there to that extend, still every fellowship that ranked high had 1 or a few specialised cities that where imported into the fellowship when the FA would start.
The majority of the player base should not have to suffer because of the cheats. INNO needs to do their jobs and maintain the integrity of the game. Why are players paying their salaries when they are refusing to do the basics of their job? What's the sense in having rules that are never enforced? It's easier to punish the majority of the player base, there is little effort and little cost in that...More Profit! How will they punish the majority when they realize that "edge case" cities, like you are building, have cracked the code of the new tournament penalty formula?
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
I like to note down that this is on a "young world" this means that the dead town massacre that we have seen on some old worlds never existed there to that extend, still every fellowship that ranked high had 1 or a few specialised cities that where imported into the fellowship when the FA would start.

That may not be against the rules but that is poor sportsmanship and feels like cheating. I have been in my Beta fellowship long enough to participate in 4 FAs so far. We have finished 2nd, then 6th, then 1st and 1st. We have never rotated cities in and out.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
The majority of the player base should not have to suffer because of the cheats. INNO needs to do their jobs and maintain the integrity of the game. Why are players paying their salaries when they are refusing to do the basics of their job? What's the sense in having rules that are never enforced? It's easier to punish the majority of the player base, there is little effort and little cost in that...More Profit! How will they punish the majority when they realize that "edge case" cities, like you are building, have cracked the code of the new tournament penalty formula?

but owning a dead town with stupids amounts of workshops / factories is not agains the rules.

Yes transferring an account between players is agains the rules but how many of you have 5-6-7 accounts? maybe your tired of 1 and turn one of those into a mad account?

The issue is not who cheats but a system that was designed to promote total destruction.
As soon as you promote total destruction there will be people who optimise for it.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I am pretty sure, you can find similar numbers if not more that hate to make dwarven badges.
people are a little less vocal about it, but it's always the slowest spot thats filled.

I find it hard to believe that there are people who hate dwarven more or even as much as they hate arcanes. It certainly isn't true in my fellowship. If it were, we wouldn't be swimming in dwarven and have virtually no arcanes. We have enough dwarven to last the rest of the event and remain in the number 1 spot. But I would like to get other opinions on that. Anyone here?
 

kriz-te

Member
dwarven brews are easy for me to make - I put out 10 L1 workshops, so it literally takes 10 minutes to make one. easy peasy. (if they aren't tied up in something else at the moment ha) they are the complete opposite end of the spectrum from archanes, imo. i expected a range of easy - hard badges, just not sure the balance is right when i'm reading this singular badge is a huge hurdle for practically everyone.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
image.png

This is from someone in my fellowship...anyway you slice this, the value of a single residue badge far exceeds its worth in the FA unless you're going for a top spot...
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
View attachment 9396
This is from someone in my fellowship...anyway you slice this, the value of a single residue badge far exceeds its worth in the FA unless you're going for a top spot...
Thats fine ain't it?

  • Left route: 83 badges
  • Middle route: 39 badges
  • Right route: 56 badges
  • All routes: 178 badges
So for the left route each player needs to do 3 badges in 1 week. this is not a problem for anyone
For the middle route it's 1.5 badge each
For the right route 2 badges each

And for all routes 1 badge per day per player.
You can always craft something each day that will result in an arcane residue or more.

So even in relax mode, just crafting things you like each fellowship should be able to have arcane residue badges for the vortex as long as everyone plays along and makes 1 badge or more per day.
No crazy crafting needed.
1 combat building is a badge, 1 petfood and something else is a badge, and some really decent timeboosters are a badge or a timebooster and something. plenty of badge opportunities and if you want to make a badge there are plenty of other recipes left that grant a badge if you so desire.

So only if you want to go all out on the vortex and really battle for the best at absolute top will you need to actually push those badges.
Why is it such a drama, that you need to make these badges for that goal?

It's totally fine to destroy entire cities into oblivion for those places, creating completely destroyed towns to dominate the top of the FA, but making a badge that keeps a player with a playable but to the FA modified town competitive is the worst thing in the world.

please explain how this:
1615900320105.png

is better than making arcane residue if you really desire to battle for the top spots.

And if you just want to enjoy the FA and complete it all, making 1 badge a day isn't the worst thing in the world.
Hell I have ignored FA for as long as I could and I make more than 1 badge per day, no FA needed.

I wonder how people can blow this up this badly. it's most likely for the same reason as in the beginning people went mad because the FA was impossible to get those massive numbers required. but when it's divided over many it's actually not much at all.
If you look rational at the numbers required this whole topic makes no sense

@AtaguS this rant was not specifically pointed to you.
 
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AtaguS

Well-Known Member
Your numbers look good and I don't dispute. I too am happy for something to slow down the demolished city lurkers...However, we are in the pit. We don't care about score. BUT, if we want to keep going so we can dump the 100+ coin and troops badges we have or the statues we made extra for the pit...this fellow will need to burn 13hrs of time instants or 3 blueprints. It seems a steep price.
 
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