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    Your Elvenar Team

To build them all or not to build. Ancient Wonders

It's pretty hard to understand NOT building some wonders. GA is a must to L30. Who doesn't need more tiles?? MH falls into this category as well in my view.

After that, I think it's all about premise. Going deep in tournaments provide a lot of rewards over time. Assuming a player is going to have some military prowess, they need needles to max, as well as FA and VS and Simia. There's a strong case for Sanctuary and Toads, and a less strong case (my opinion) for HF and SSS.

Then there are more narrow / strategy-specific wonders. I love my ETC (L35). Since I get a lot of CCs from my city proper (lucky with moonstone / when I started playing), I build MMs 100% in MA, and I also have some evolving building generating MMs. I usually have ~12 manus spelled every day...it's lovely. YMMV of course.

I resisted BTG for a long time but an FS member whom I highly respect set me straight. Now that I've been looking at BTG and the impact of culture on various collection aspects...the culture strategy that Mykan alluded to is looking very sexy to me. I have a couple other AW priorities right now, but Watchtower Ruins and LoGN....I think I will go deep.

One other aspect worth mentioning. IF you have the space, there are cases where a L1 AW is actually quite good. The more you play with things the more it'll make sense. There are definitely some I will never build because they are either extraneous or they truly are not worth the tiles at all.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
It's pretty hard to understand NOT building some wonders. GA is a must to L30. Who doesn't need more tiles?? MH falls into this category as well in my view.

After that, I think it's all about premise. Going deep in tournaments provide a lot of rewards over time. Assuming a player is going to have some military prowess, they need needles to max, as well as FA and VS and Simia. There's a strong case for Sanctuary and Toads, and a less strong case (my opinion) for HF and SSS.

Then there are more narrow / strategy-specific wonders. I love my ETC (L35). Since I get a lot of CCs from my city proper (lucky with moonstone / when I started playing), I build MMs 100% in MA, and I also have some evolving building generating MMs. I usually have ~12 manus spelled every day...it's lovely. YMMV of course.

I resisted BTG for a long time but an FS member whom I highly respect set me straight. Now that I've been looking at BTG and the impact of culture on various collection aspects...the culture strategy that Mykan alluded to is looking very sexy to me. I have a couple other AW priorities right now, but Watchtower Ruins and LoGN....I think I will go deep.

One other aspect worth mentioning. IF you have the space, there are cases where a L1 AW is actually quite good. The more you play with things the more it'll make sense. There are definitely some I will never build because they are either extraneous or they truly are not worth the tiles at all.
I don't need the GA at level 30, my GA is level 17 and gives me 12,780 Population and I currently have 118,000+ Population I am not using. I could sell my 4 Magic Residences and my GA and still have a lot of unused Population. I already go to the wholesaler 35+ times a day, so I don't need coins. I also have no factories, so no use for the MH. There are so many different play styles in this game that nothing is a "must have".
 
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Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Also, be prepared for some disappointments along the way. If you build the golden Abyss for population, be aware that at level thirty it suddenly stops increasing population and only adds gold (and not enough gold to be worth the effort) so the last five levels become the tainted with the bitter taste of bait-and-switch.
I felt the same thing with the BTG, since it no longer gives you any wholesaler value beyond level 30. Yeah, a girl can dream about 3 star trades from the wholesaler, lol, but it's never gonna happen. I stopped leveling it at 30.
 

Dominionofgod

Thinker of Ideas
I've been searching for over an hour for the answer to this. I am wondering if anyone has dedicated their whole city to owning every one of the (available to them), Ancient Wonders.
I havnt. If you want to see if someone has, then i suggest looking through the top ranked players on your server for a start.
There are a number of AW's that really dont seem worth it for many players, depending on there play style and goals. So chances are to have all the aw's that a player feels they dont need, and have them leveled, would probably be someone that has finished all the others and is very far in the game/been here for ages.
More Aw levels will give more rank points. Downside, its could make spire harder since aw level is a factor in there now. (i think it was spire at least..) So it would depend on what there priority is.

Also curious if the developers have actually created the ideal city
They have (imo). And i think many of us have already seen it. Its the one they use in every 'explanation video'. Ever notice it always has a ton of extra room, a ton of extra culture, a ton of extra population, a ton of extra kp... noticing a pattern here... So im gonna say thats probably as close to 'perfect' as you could hope for.

Now if your talking every Aw placed and every evolving building placed... thats a massive amount of room...
 
I don't need the GA at level 30, my GA is level 17 and gives me 12,780 Population and I currently have 118,000+ Population I am not using. I could sell my 4 Magic Residences and my GA and still have a lot of unused Population. I already go to the wholesaler 35+ times a day, so I don't need coins. I also have no factories, so no use for the MH. There are so many different play styles in this game that nothing is a "must have".
I mean...I guess? Yes there are many playstyles, and there are no "best" as a matter of PREFERENCE. But as a matter of efficiency?? Yes. You might find, upon doing some calculations / interrogating your existing setup, that you could play in your current style, just BETTER. Unless you think you are completely optimized and no possible improvements exist? IF SO - big if - then, no, for you, the best pop/tile building in the game would not be an improvement.

Example - for random example player, having more efficient culture buildings might free up some tiles for a factory. For that factory, they might need more pop, for which an additional GA level might be "strictly better" than another other option on a per tile basis. Multiply ad infinitum.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
, the best pop/tile building in the game
The thing is that the GA isn't always the best pop/tile building. Some buildings, like the fire chicken, are an absolute must-have for fighters, so the pop you get from it isn't optional and could be considered free with infinite efficiency.

The same goes for many evos' and set buildings. Some buildings are so good that the pop is a mere by-product.
Up until very recently, I had zero residences and still too much pop. The GA was doing nothing for my city other than adding AW levels that hurt me in the tournament and spire. Removing sets or evos in order to make use of the 1-dimensional GA would have had a negative impact on my city.
 

MaidenFair

Chef - Head Philologist
…. a matter of efficiency?? …. the best pop/tile building in the game …..
I agree the GA is good but this is where the play style comes in, because technically for my city, the GA is actually not the most efficient pop/square option. I’m in chapter 12, but I have a low working population because I’m a caterer and I use a lot of event buildings. At level 28, my GA only gives me a little over 5000 pop. Compare that to my ch. 12 Magic Residences which give me 4900 in a 4x4 space. Is the GA better? Yes, until you account for the increase in Spire/tourney costs caused by the GA, which is roughly equal to having added another 4 expansions to the city. In effect, my GA has a footprint of 109 squares for that ~5000 pop, compared to my MR at ~25 squares for 4900 pop.

In my city so far, the GA is absolutely not worth the space for the population it provides; I do get a huge excess of coins which I use for the Wholesaler (making it worthwhile to keep) but that becomes a different calculation/conversation, comparing it to manufactories and production capabilities.
 
And that's all fine, as long as everything else is optimized. Is that the case? I suppose even the GA is premise-based, as I said above. Your premise is that you would have the exact same build as current but with more GA levels; everything else equal. Depending on the analysis one performs, or the metric used to assess "goodness", "badness", "efficiency", "aesthetic", etc., (see: premise), only THEN can the utility of a building or an AW level be evaluated.

If the goal is just to have fun, with no consideration given to optimization or, for example, improving tournament scores, then I agree that optimizing has no value. Players should play how they want.

Example: Chapter 17 player has a working population of 333,999, and has 4 magic residences, each generating 15,900 pop (20 tiles), therefore 795 pop/tile. Their other pop is generated from various event buildings etc. They have a GA at L16, thus providing 9% of working pop = 30,059 (3339 pop/tile). If they leveled their GA to L30, it would produce 50,099 (5566 pop/tile), allowing them to get rid of at least one MR. This might have a negative impact of their tourney score, depending on many factors. I would argue there is a very high likelihood they could use the extra tiles to improve their tourney score. Note that using the place from the removed MR to place another factory would further increase their working pop, there further increasing the pop/tile of GA, and therefore it's objective utility regarding provision of population.
 
I agree the GA is good but this is where the play style comes in, because technically for my city, the GA is actually not the most efficient pop/square option. I’m in chapter 12, but I have a low working population because I’m a caterer and I use a lot of event buildings. At level 28, my GA only gives me a little over 5000 pop. Compare that to my ch. 12 Magic Residences which give me 4900 in a 4x4 space. Is the GA better? Yes, until you account for the increase in Spire/tourney costs caused by the GA, which is roughly equal to having added another 4 expansions to the city. In effect, my GA has a footprint of 109 squares for that ~5000 pop, compared to my MR at ~25 squares for 4900 pop.

In my city so far, the GA is absolutely not worth the space for the population it provides; I do get a huge excess of coins which I use for the Wholesaler (making it worthwhile to keep) but that becomes a different calculation/conversation, comparing it to manufactories and production capabilities.
Sure....but you are still assuming that your city is perfectly optimized, even for your premises (wants tourney score, wants to (only?) cater. I challenge you to interrogate that assumption. Are there improvements you could make to better achieve your stated objectives? I would wager that GA would improve along with other improvements if you took a good look. Yes, if you aren't willing to change anything you might expect the result you have.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
And that's all fine, as long as everything else is optimized. Is that the case? I suppose even the GA is premise-based, as I said above. Your premise is that you would have the exact same build as current but with more GA levels; everything else equal. Depending on the analysis one performs, or the metric used to assess "goodness", "badness", "efficiency", "aesthetic", etc., (see: premise), only THEN can the utility of a building or an AW level be evaluated.

If the goal is just to have fun, with no consideration given to optimization or, for example, improving tournament scores, then I agree that optimizing has no value. Players should play how they want.

Example: Chapter 17 player has a working population of 333,999, and has 4 magic residences, each generating 15,900 pop (20 tiles), therefore 795 pop/tile. Their other pop is generated from various event buildings etc. They have a GA at L16, thus providing 9% of working pop = 30,059 (3339 pop/tile). If they leveled their GA to L30, it would produce 50,099 (5566 pop/tile), allowing them to get rid of at least one MR. This might have a negative impact of their tourney score, depending on many factors. I would argue there is a very high likelihood they could use the extra tiles to improve their tourney score. Note that using the place from the removed MR to place another factory would further increase their working pop, there further increasing the pop/tile of GA, and therefore it's objective utility regarding provision of population.
If you don't need Pop or coins then no analysis is going to make the GA useful to you.. If you don't have factories then no analysis is going to make the MH useful to you. My city is so optimized that I have no need for residences, factories, GA or MH, probably could chuck the PT too. Not having residences, factories, GA, or MH saves so much space that the GA can't make up for that no matter how you analyze it. I also stopped putting out Carting Libraries because KP is also useless to me anymore, that's even more space saved.
 
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Pheryll

Set Designer
I felt the same thing with the BTG, since it no longer gives you any wholesaler value beyond level 30. Yeah, a girl can dream about 3 star trades from the wholesaler, lol, but it's never gonna happen. I stopped leveling it at 30.

Why not dream about a negative trader fee, where if you find just the right person. to trade back and forth with you could create goods from nothing?
 

iamthouth

Tetris Master
Like this @Darielle ? Comes from having the Red Begonia Fields together with high BTG.
1675906914915.png1675906875275.png1675906844439.png
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
I should have commented earlier. One of my goals for years was to have every AW. I greatly enjoyed having them all just because. I still feel disappointment in the game when I think about how many I had to sell off. Even with all 168 expansions, there is no way to have all of the AW and still make progress in all of the chapters and all of the other upgrades to other buildings :(

I didn’t read all of the conversation but I did see some discussion about the GA. I have never considered selling mine off. I’m good with the 283,000 population I get from a 3x3 space.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Even with all 168 expansions, there is no way to have all of the AW and still make progress in all of the chapters and all of the other upgrades to other buildings :(

While I haven't had all the wonders I don't agree with that. I know a person with them all (wonders and expansions) and they do very well. I have most wonders (missing 3 from memory, not counting ch20 I am yet to unlock but have provision for) and am a long way off all expansions. I have the full ch20 guest race in my town and still have excess buildings galore. Plenty of towns with most wonders progressing along fine from what I see.

The only thing all the wonders do is reduce tournament capacity and even then you can get between 6-12k depending on approach/determination. Space is simply a choice of what you put in it and how you use it.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I should have commented earlier. One of my goals for years was to have every AW. I greatly enjoyed having them all just because. I still feel disappointment in the game when I think about how many I had to sell off. Even with all 168 expansions, there is no way to have all of the AW and still make progress in all of the chapters and all of the other upgrades to other buildings :(

I didn’t read all of the conversation but I did see some discussion about the GA. I have never considered selling mine off. I’m good with the 283,000 population I get from a 3x3 space.
34 Factories is a lot of Pop needed.
 

Sail Renniks

New Member
I'm at level 10 on 5 of my cities and have just started evaluating if I should keep my AW's. Most are basic, coins, etc. I just don't see the value when comparing to the space. I need seeds! Time to dump the coins
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
I'm at level 10 on 5 of my cities and have just started evaluating if I should keep my AW's. Most are basic, coins, etc. I just don't see the value when comparing to the space. I need seeds! Time to dump the coins
The seed collection bonus is based on your AW levels. From the wiki:
Screenshots_2023-02-15-16-08-20.png
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
I'm at level 10 on 5 of my cities and have just started evaluating if I should keep my AW's. Most are basic, coins, etc. I just don't see the value when comparing to the space. I need seeds! Time to dump the coins
Generally wonders will save you space and they absolutely help with seeds. I only use wonders and trader for seeds as I always had enough wonder levels.

If a wonder isn't saving you space you should relook at whether your strategy could adapt to better utilise it, otherwise ditch it. No point having a wonder you are not getting benefit from.

Couple amazing space savers (plenty of others to explore):
Monastery/Sanctuary and watchtower - 80% of culture need for ever with those 2
GA/MH/TSoY - Population savers, all depend on having residences or factories/WS
- others save on WS space
- others save on factory space (normal and sentient goods)
- others save on armoury space
- others save on mana space
- others save on unurium space
 

Maplestone

Active Member
I started playing with three rules:
1. single city
2. solo fellowship
3. all wonders must be built

I wasn't expecting to still be playing at this point, but I'm slowly crawling my way through chapter 16 on a minimalist squeezed-in guest setup and I've got clear sailing to the end (it won't be fast or pretty, but I'll get there in a couple of months).

I can sustain15x6 rounds of the tournament and go to the top of the spire each week. I wanted to push a few more rounds, but the costs escalated rather quickly this chapter so I'm erring on the side of sustainability.
 
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