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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Tournament Changes

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Wait... So think that you're a more generous KP donator than @CrazyWizard and that means that there is nothing wrong with the new tournament formula?
Has covid made people crazy? Is it like cabin fever or something?

I donate a few thousand KP a week, so I doubt he is more generous ;)
I accedentely destroyed my needles a few weeks back, and it's already back up to 34.

Because now the same people who pushed a massive amount of KP are whining the loudest that the game is flawed. I guess it is hard to accept that using cheats have its side effects, just like being banned from other games. Ofc. there is still a small chance that he really spent the price of a house on the game or there is a magical solution for getting thousands of extra KP each week. So sure, I can still be wrong.
There are more ways that lead to rome, you do not NEED to push, to max out your wonders, you can just replace it with efford instead.

I just rebuilded my needles in the past few weeks.
1607988785889.png

How should I interpetid this?
Pushing? no need, but I just invested 22.000 kp in my needles to rebuild it. (a little bit comes from my fellows as they grabbed the chests with a little profit)
And yes my 20's are low, thanks to my destruction of my needles but in the comming weeks it will skyrocket upwards again.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
this shows exactly how incompetent and how disengaged these people are with the game, how they are still unwilling to admit there error, they only "agreed a little bit" on the wonders. but ignore every other aspect of the data people delivered.

Huge decline in tournament score, but what this data doesn't show is my accumulated extra military is pretty wiped out now, my goods are declining, my spell resources are declining, I'm out of time instants, and I'm doing ridiculous things to do as well as I actually am doing, like setting stupid timers to maximize resource collection.

So, the massive decline is understated because I'm really cutting into game resources whereas previous I was gaining.

And the thing is, if I could do a 12.5k score, which is about 25% off what I had been able to do, and I could do that without stripping resources and being able to have a relaxed game again I wouldn't have minded the change so much. It was just way too extreme, and I can see a stepwise further decline coming as I burn through resources.
1607992732063.png
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Huge decline in tournament score, but what this data doesn't show is my accumulated extra military is pretty wiped out now, my goods are declining, my spell resources are declining, I'm out of time instants, and I'm doing ridiculous things to do as well as I actually am doing, like setting stupid timers to maximize resource collection.

So, the massive decline is understated because I'm really cutting into game resources whereas previous I was gaining.

And the thing is, if I could do a 12.5k score, which is about 25% off what I had been able to do, and I could do that without stripping resources and being able to have a relaxed game again I wouldn't have minded the change so much. It was just way too extreme, and I can see a stepwise further decline coming as I burn through resources.
View attachment 8781

This was intended, and makes total sense
We should not complain about getting less KP, or lower scores.

The insane scores the brown bear/spire combination created should not be taken as the standard, before that we did ~ 10K
This is what we did before the maddnes introduced itself.
1607994445304.png

After that scores went haywire.

"how big" our scores could be is decided by the devs, and as long as this counts for everyone than those changes are fine.
The real issue is not our scores, we should stop whining about that, the issue is progress is regress. the fact that after you reached a certain part of the game ther is no longer a clear path ahead. that is the issue, and the only issue thats unhealthy for the game.

and it's now build in such a way that the more the game grows, the worse it will become. exponential growth in difficulty without exponential growth in stuff like for example production only widens the gap as new chapters are added.
 

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GlamDoll

Well-Known Member
I believe it...
So, the massive decline is understated because I'm really cutting into game resources whereas previous I was gaining.

I am nowhere near end-game & have & am, watching the same happen to me. So much fun! I used to have over 4mil of just T1 goods...

No, I will not disclose how low it is now, let alone everything else, because I was not smart. I did NOT take screen shots for the past few months, because I don't play games to have it be a job :(

I am very thankful to all those that have whatever it takes, to do it though.
 

Arkadia

Well-Known Member
The only issue I have with this change is that it destroys the primary goal of any game, progression!
There should always be a route to improve yourself, this route has been butchered and destroyed with this change.
No longer does Progression mean a positive thing, there are now plenty of examples in which progression is a negative thing.

^^^^^ THAT!!! ^^^^^

The enjoyment of progression is butchered!
well said!
Thank you!
 

MagicIowa

New Member
After all there is justice in this game. People who kp pushed and made all of their AWs 30+ by cheating got what they deserve.

I am in the middle of chapter 16 and tournament is the same or somewhat easier than previously. It is not the first time the game changes, and this time is no different than the previous ones. You can easily adapt to the new system too by changing your city. I already have the long term plans about how to do 10k+ each week on the tournament.
definitely you don't know anything about the game. you say that you can do better than cities that more advanced than yours....why? do you have a secret weapons that we don't know about or specially skills...the formula is wrong.
wait until you get your wonders at high level....you are not in a position to do judgment that you are far away from it
and mot all people have pushed accounts, many used to get more than 500+ kp weekly from tournaments because they invested in their cities and advance it...again you are not in a position ti judge with your city size...once you are there..you can speak
 

MagicIowa

New Member
I donate a few thousand KP a week, so I doubt he is more generous ;)
I accedentely destroyed my needles a few weeks back, and it's already back up to 34.


There are more ways that lead to rome, you do not NEED to push, to max out your wonders, you can just replace it with efford instead.

I just rebuilded my needles in the past few weeks.
View attachment 8780
How should I interpetid this?
Pushing? no need, but I just invested 22.000 kp in my needles to rebuild it. (a little bit comes from my fellows as they grabbed the chests with a little profit)
And yes my 20's are low, thanks to my destruction of my needles but in the comming weeks it will skyrocket upwards again.
Thank you CrazyWizard to show MR. Professional who know everything (ET-infrno) that people can have high level wonders without pushed cities
and YES, definitely COVID made some people crazy lolol ...I think he will change his inputs IF EVER HE REACHES the wonder level of high ranking
players
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
This was intended, and makes total sense
We should not complain about getting less KP, or lower scores.

The insane scores the brown bear/spire combination created should not be taken as the standard, before that we did ~ 10K
This is what we did before the maddnes introduced itself.
View attachment 8783
After that scores went haywire.

"how big" our scores could be is decided by the devs, and as long as this counts for everyone than those changes are fine.
The real issue is not our scores, we should stop whining about that, the issue is progress is regress. the fact that after you reached a certain part of the game ther is no longer a clear path ahead. that is the issue, and the only issue thats unhealthy for the game.

and it's now build in such a way that the more the game grows, the worse it will become. exponential growth in difficulty without exponential growth in stuff like for example production only widens the gap as new chapters are added.
There was a huge difference in the score make-up before the bears the birds. 50 provinces for 5 levels is 10,500, and as the score creeped up I was adding a lot more of level 6, which only gives points and not much in the way of rewards. 50 x 270 is 13,500. What you are not seeing in that graph is the degree to which the change in design slaughtered the rewards. First level is 30 points, 6th is 60, and those lower scores before before the change gave about 25-30% more rewards because of doing more provinces with lower contribution to the score, but higher rewards. I was going out 50+ provinces for a very long time.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
The point made was that they wanted to "slaughter" the rewards.
People were getting way to many KP.

So yeah it's "working as intended" and it makes sense.
It does not make sense when people get 500-800kp a week from the tournaments with 2 fingers in there nose.
It now cappes out ~350KP excluding some exceptions.

this makes a lot of sense.
What does not make any sense in that progressing in the game regresses your tournament abilities.
Thats an issue, not that we get a lot less KP than before. completing a 7000kp chapter in 2 and a bit months does not make any sense.
 

Deborah M

Well-Known Member
I came to see what the reaction was to the video claim that 25% more players are participating in the tournament than before the change. I'm really surprised that I haven't found any discussion on that. I really do not and did not believe that Elvenar made these changes to punish any group. The assumption that it was aimed at those who have push accounts has never made sense to me because the changes apply the same to all high ranking players plus the changes are not solely aimed at KP. I really stopped and thought about difficulty increasing the further advanced a player goes. Don't all games work that way? In the video/computer/online games I have played I got better tools to beat harder challenges. I think the changes have moved the tournament into a more common paradigm in game play. Anyway, I think a 25% increase in players' participation makes it really hard to claim that the changes to the tournament are not a real success for Elvenar developers.

Yes, the tournaments got much more difficult for me. That being said, after this long it is just the new normal for tournaments. I still believe that my AW make it easier than it would be without them even if it is a lesser degree than before.
 

Steelhail

Member
I came to see what the reaction was to the video claim that 25% more players are participating in the tournament than before the change. I'm really surprised that I haven't found any discussion on that....Anyway, I think a 25% increase in players' participation makes it really hard to claim that the changes to the tournament are not a real success for Elvenar developers.

I'll be honest, I'm not quite sure what the video is saying in concrete terms, because I'm not sure what "overall participation" means. In the video, it said, "overall participation in tournaments increased by 25%." That could mean that 25% more players are participating, e.g., that an alliance that had 20 people doing tournaments now has 24. It could instead mean the net total tournament averages increased, so a fellowship that averaged 10K now gets 12.5K. It could also just mean that when you compare a player who used to complete 3 tournament provinces now completes 6 (100% increase), and another player who went down from 70 provinces to 35 (50% decrease), that's actually an overall participation increase of 25%.

To be clear, it's not that I expect them to explain that in a video! But I also expect in a video they're going to massage the numbers for whatever sounds like the most positive statistic.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
To be clear, it's not that I expect them to explain that in a video! But I also expect in a video they're going to massage the numbers for whatever sounds like the most positive statistic.
Yup. Personally, I would interpret it as the total number of provinces solved (x4) compared to before the changes, but that's because I find that number the most interesting.
 

Meggi

Active Member
@Crazy Wizard, next time you accidentally sell of your AW, send a message to support, they might be able to help you before you have to rebuild it.
Folks, I do not mind tourney being harder if anyone should explain to me why should we build up our city if progressing is having negative impact on everything else?( Spire and tourney)...Starting January first, we will be heading into protest of not buying diamonds and will be placing the videos of costs between different players , with different aw numbers on different levels of provinces, just so people like ET-inferno can actually see for them selves what awaits them in a future.
NO game should punish you for progressing!!!And I don't care much about politics, Lord knows I want every player to enjoy this game and advance as much as possible.Your tourney costs will not be sustainable in later chapters, and if there is no need to advance your city (expansions, aw's etc.) Why have a tourney, why have a spire?You all want to advance right?Well good luck once you get where we are.The costs just for first 30 provinces are not sustainable.And my best regards to the new project manager Lucas, this is his what he is looking at for the future, thank you Minimax for posting this:
Screen Shot 2020-12-26 at 11.51.57 PM.png
 

Meggi

Active Member
@Crazy Wizard, next time you accidentally sell of your AW, send a message to support, they might be able to help you before you have to rebuild it.
Folks, I do not mind tourney being harder if anyone should explain to me why should we build up our city if progressing is having negative impact on everything else?( Spire and tourney)...Starting January first, we will be heading into protest of not buying diamonds and will be placing the videos of costs between different players , with different aw numbers on different levels of provinces, just so people like ET-inferno can actually see for them selves what awaits them in a future.
NO game should punish you for progressing!!!And I don't care much about politics, Lord knows I want every player to enjoy this game and advance as much as possible.Your tourney costs will not be sustainable in later chapters, and if there is no need to advance your city (expansions, aw's etc.) Why have a tourney, why have a spire?You all want to advance right?Well good luck once you get where we are.The costs just for first 30 provinces are not sustainable.And my best regards to the new project manager Lucas, this is his what he is looking at for the future, thank you Minimax for posting this:
View attachment 8822
And just so we are are clear, All of the Minimax calculations are 99.8% correct with INNO difficulty of tourney.
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
As posted before, I have a somewhat different perspective. It is reinforced this week because I finally came in first in Ceravyn. I was a regular visitor to the first page before I became AM of my FS. It was always the same set of players at the top. This week, I came in first because I deployed 2xDA and 2xUUU and other boosts AND I manually fought almost every battle that had a spoiler in it. Huge savings in troop losses. Huge time sink. It seems that to come in first, a player MUST deploy more boosts than are achievable on a weekly basis and have the time to manually fight.

So my experience is:
1. It is easy to visit the first page going 30x6 and this is sustainable if I have time to manually fight.
2. It is finally possible to come in first if I make an exceptional effort.

In Ceravyn, the same player came in first every week from the time I first looked until the new tournament. THE SAME PLAYER EVERY WEEK.
Since then, it seems like a new player every week. From Inno's perspective, which is more motivating to the player base? I am more motivated to take my turn at doing well on the tournaments because now I have a chance. Prior to the new system, I did not.

Again, the comment that " the game punishes you for progressing " only applies to players who have already maxed all of the relevant AWs. For me, partway through CH17, I have a huge number of AW upgrades in front of me. The tournament will slowly get easier for me. I already feel the pain for the tech upgrades in CH17, so I am going on a tech hold and will spend a few weeks upgrading my martial AWs.

I have already expressed my sympathy for the "super players" who Inno nerfed. They invested huge in the old system. Since the same super players are on the first page, the nerf lets other players come in first. Ceravyn now has a form of 'parity'. We did not have it before. Professional sports pursues parity with draft order and salary caps. Inno has done something similar. It is no longer possible for a player to buy their way to success in tournaments. The tournament system is now dominated by DAs and UUUs - not what I spend on the game. It is more fair for everybody.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
As posted before, I have a somewhat different perspective. It is reinforced this week because I finally came in first in Ceravyn. I was a regular visitor to the first page before I became AM of my FS. It was always the same set of players at the top. This week, I came in first because I deployed 2xDA and 2xUUU and other boosts AND I manually fought almost every battle that had a spoiler in it. Huge savings in troop losses. Huge time sink. It seems that to come in first, a player MUST deploy more boosts than are achievable on a weekly basis and have the time to manually fight.

So my experience is:
1. It is easy to visit the first page going 30x6 and this is sustainable if I have time to manually fight.
2. It is finally possible to come in first if I make an exceptional effort.

In Ceravyn, the same player came in first every week from the time I first looked until the new tournament. THE SAME PLAYER EVERY WEEK.
Since then, it seems like a new player every week. From Inno's perspective, which is more motivating to the player base? I am more motivated to take my turn at doing well on the tournaments because now I have a chance. Prior to the new system, I did not.

Again, the comment that " the game punishes you for progressing " only applies to players who have already maxed all of the relevant AWs. For me, partway through CH17, I have a huge number of AW upgrades in front of me. The tournament will slowly get easier for me. I already feel the pain for the tech upgrades in CH17, so I am going on a tech hold and will spend a few weeks upgrading my martial AWs.

I have already expressed my sympathy for the "super players" who Inno nerfed. They invested huge in the old system. Since the same super players are on the first page, the nerf lets other players come in first. Ceravyn now has a form of 'parity'. We did not have it before. Professional sports pursues parity with draft order and salary caps. Inno has done something similar. It is no longer possible for a player to buy their way to success in tournaments. The tournament system is now dominated by DAs and UUUs - not what I spend on the game. It is more fair for everybody.
Might be the first time you've won, but on my game world the introduction of the military boosts long before the tournament changes enabled that. What was limiting winning was the number of open provinces.

One of the suggestions that I made on beta is the really, the game should have different tournament competitions based on how far into the game that you are. My suggestion was the players in the first 7-8 chapters should be competing for the lower level tournament with a lower top prize, like say 250 ranking points, and then there should be a level 2, as we have now, and there should be a level 3 tournament with a 5000 ranking points for the top prize. The top level would be for players in the last 3 chapters. When the tournament was introduced, 1000 points was pretty big relative to game ranking points and now it is pretty tiny. I think the game only went to around chapter 5 or 6 when it came out. Top scores were in the 200k range when the very popular second version of the tournament came out. Top scores are in the 2 million range now so a relative prize would be 10k ranking points.

I think eliminating the win to be based on how many provinces you have open was a good thing, but making winning totally regressive based on game progression is a bad thing.

The problems with the new tournament are:
  • The increasing difficulty is too steep
  • The penalty for gaining AW levels is too high
  • There should not be a penalty for placing premium expansions
  • The old tournament resulted in about an extra 50% troops required if you had done the optional squad size techs. This new tournament results in about an extra 500% troops required based on the maximum game development compared to the least. The difference is obscene and that maximum difference should be maybe 200-250%.
 

Meggi

Active Member
Today we have prepared a really exclusive interview for you! Lukas works directly at the German headquarters of InnoGames, where he works in the top management of this game, specifically holding the position of Product Manager of the game Elvenar.


How long have you been working for InnoGames / Elvenar, which team do you belong to and what exactly are you in charge of?

I have been working for InnoGames since the beginning of the year and just as long for Elvenar. As a product manager, I make sure that together as a team we work on the right tasks, that we successfully implement them and that we also regularly release updates with useful improvements and extensions for Elvenar. For our team, this means above all new friendly races and improvements to basic elements in the game, such as the Tower of Eternity or ancient wonders.

Is there anything specific you should do with your team now?
We are currently working on the technical foundations for changing the rewards in the Tower of Eternity. So you can look forward to their change in 2021. Do you play Elvenar yourself? And do you have a favorite chapter? Sure! I'm in the Forest Elves chapter. And I'm really looking forward to the next chapter with wizards and dragons. I really liked the style of the buildings during this year's Magicians' Pilgrimage event. What do you like best about Elvenar? My favorite thing is that I'm not under constant pressure to defend my city from attacks. In other games, it still happens that you wake up in the morning and you have a part of the city destroyed. But in Elvenar, I start with the good feeling that every morning my city is a little further away than it was in the evening. And one important thing, do you like unicorns?







I risk falling a little in your eyes, but I've never been a big fan of horses or unicorns. However, in Elvenar, unicorns are a frequent gift and I have them in the city. However, you know the donated horse.
(wink)



In the new tournament system, additional chests have been added to the prizes. Why don't the rewards hidden in them gradually increase, but still remain the same? It costs a lot of effort to work towards them.
We deliberately chose rewards in this way precisely because they are difficult to obtain. We were afraid that the community would feel the need to change players who score fewer points in the tournament, just to reach all the chests. And just by making sure that the extra rewards are not something you just have to have, but just a nice bonus, we've been able to give the strongest tournament community a new challenge without putting unnecessarily much pressure on smaller communities.

Are there any changes planned in the way the size of the army is calculated? Why should players be disadvantaged when buying premium expansions? And why are they also disadvantaged by the construction of ancient wonders?
We evaluated the tournament data, read the feedback from the players (indeed, we got a lot from the forums thanks to our skillful community managers), introduced some elements of the player's feedback, and understood the impact of the tournament change on the game. The basic goal of the calculation formula is to offer all playersa tournament that does not benefit anyone and is also a challenge for everyone. Nevertheless, progress in the game in any form should remain an advantage for players and help them succeed in the tournament. We believe that with the new tournament system, we are closer to this goal than before, when the size of the division depended only on research into the size of the division. In this old system, the top positions in the tournament were simply shared by those who had the most provinces at their disposal.

We understand the frustration of players who, with the new system, score fewer tournament points and receive fewer tournament prizes than before. However, no player should be afraid of further progress. For example, from the analyzes we've done, we don't see that players with more premium expansions do worse than players with fewer. On the contrary, these players continue with significantly better results than the other players being compared. And it's the same with ancient wonders, the progress of the research tree, or common extensions. Of course, there is a discussion about how much better these players should do, but we do not see any "penalty" among the above-mentioned factors, which would unbalance the overall tournament result of the player.

Of course, this does not mean that no further adjustments will come. We will certainly continue to monitor the overall behavior of the tournaments, including the above formula. For example, we already see a weakness of the system in the fact that the impact of the levels of ancient wonders on the pattern is the same for all wonders. We strongly agree that some ancient wonders are more important for tournaments than others, and the formula does not currently take this into account. In addition, we continue to monitor players at the forefront of research to make sure that the cost of the tournament does not become too high at some point. However, the number of these players is quite small and it takes a little longer to obtain statistically significant data for analysis.

Will we ever get complete equality between the mobile and browser versions? For example, that we see the duration of spells, player searches, and communities on mobile phones? And that we get more convenient neighborhood help in browsers.
We are constantly working on the equality of both versions of the game. For example, we added the ability to search for players and communities on mobile a few weeks ago. Along with that, we've added an option to browser browsing that suggests communities to enter players to join. And further adjustments will follow. Will there ever be an opportunity to obtain artifacts for older emerging buildings? After all, some of them can be crafted, but when artifacts are not available, this option is useless. And what are the chances that players could exchange artifacts?

Already now there is the possibility of obtaining older artifacts during events or the possibility of exchange (the last time it was about bears). But we also have some other interesting ideas on how to make old artifacts available in the future (even outside of events). Let's wait to see what comes out of these ideas. What will certainly not change, however, is the fact that events with new buildings will always be the fastest and most effective sources of relevant artifacts.

We do not plan to exchange artifacts between players.

source: https://cz.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/lukas-product-manager-hry-elvenar.6978/
This is what has me stewing all night, the genius in Woodelves chapter , who does not even understand what the endgame chapeters players have to deal with, gets to make decision about the tourney...And speaking of data....we have now 21 weeks of data, 9 in beta 12 in live worlds...and more than enough people actually bringing the picture of scores and costs of tournaments..What more do they need?
 

mikeledo

Well-Known Member
Without using any data, I can tell you that I am seeing more FS making 10 chests. This appears to be a big step upward. More FS are also getting gold on the spire at the same time. This does not conflict. The time instants from the spire equate to more troops. While I no longer can clear 60 provinces on a steel tournament, I do clear 25 every week, enough for 19 chests if everyone did that. I have no complaints worth mentioning. INNO made the tournament tougher on purpose placing AW levels into the formula. INNO is trying to halfway level the playing field. The alternative to making the tournament tougher is to eliminate folks with push accounts who maxed out their AWs in a way the devs did not intend to happen. Be careful what you complain about. The first rule of life: If you have a good thing going, be quiet about it.
 
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