• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Tournament Changes

MinMax Gamer

Well-Known Member
@Crazy Wizard, next time you accidentally sell of your AW, send a message to support, they might be able to help you before you have to rebuild it.
You haven't tried it yourself, have you? ;) Inno has a long standing policy NOT to revert deleted buildings - AW in particular - that you can, in theory, rebuild. No matter how expensive that would be. The only one-time exceptions are event buildings that you can't get again, those may get restored, once.

And yes, I have a first hand experience with asking support about accidentally deleted AW.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
the comment that " the game punishes you for progressing " only applies to players who have already maxed all of the relevant AWs.
It also applies to many many other situations.
E.G. Progressing from the start of chapter 16 forwards would reduce my sustainable tournament ability. This is because the training grounds and barracks upgrades unlocked do not increase troop output as much as the techs increase troop losses.
Since the formula multiplies each factor upgrading AW levels will actually compound the issue and make moving forwards a worse choice with each level.
 

Clusseau

Active Member
It also applies to many many other situations.
E.G. Progressing from the start of chapter 16 forwards would reduce my sustainable tournament ability. This is because the training grounds and barracks upgrades unlocked do not increase troop output as much as the techs increase troop losses.
Since the formula multiplies each factor upgrading AW levels will actually compound the issue and make moving forwards a worse choice with each level.

Ditto that- and- the statement doesnt even make sense!!
If INNO were to wait until Relevant AW were maxed- Why Punish At ALL?? (=Punish, for Irrelevant Advancement??)

There have been mentions (Conjecture!) of a couple of sweet spots-
Where Selected Advancements are the most effective, and where Penalties will be the least.
But- these spots are not all that Sweet. They are simply the least-bad positions in a world of constant attacks on advancement (by Inno).

Of Course, "In Defense of Inno"... a little Chopping is needed to present Continuing Challenges to Advancing Players... and, perhaps even a little Sugar for those "not yet there".

Current Formula thinks 510 Provinces is the Apex, and capacity to complete them represents the most advanced player.
Anyone past that is "Only Imaginary, and cannot be Harmed"... Players before that need a boost, in order to keep spending Diamonds.
 

GlamDoll

Well-Known Member
Of Course, "In Defense of Inno"... a little Chopping is needed to present Continuing Challenges to Advancing Players...

if it were a little chopping, I wouldn't mind so much...

@InnoGames Why are you using a nerf-hammer when a surgical-strike was all that was needed?? Huh?? It's an ant, let's nuke it into oblivion!! Good job. :/

I am all for balance & ANY game being healthy...but wow! Was Thor's hammer really the way? :(
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Current Formula thinks 510 Provinces is the Apex, and capacity to complete them represents the most advanced player.
Anyone past that is "Only Imaginary, and cannot be Harmed"
I was not aware of the formula being impacted by the number of provinces cleared?
Also, I thought you could clear as many as you want but just cant get any more expansions after 525?
 

Meggi

Active Member
You haven't tried it yourself, have you? ;) Inno has a long standing policy NOT to revert deleted buildings - AW in particular - that you can, in theory, rebuild. No matter how expensive that would be. The only one-time exceptions are event buildings that you can't get again, those may get restored, once.

And yes, I have a first hand experience with asking support about accidentally deleted AW.
No I've never tried it, just thought they would do it...silly me;) should know better...
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
E.G. Progressing from the start of chapter 16 forwards would reduce my sustainable tournament ability. This is because the training grounds and barracks upgrades unlocked do not increase troop output as much as the techs increase troop losses.

I think the effectiveness model is more complex. I cannot consider just squad size. Also going into the model is defense (MM), attack (multiple AWs), training speed (Needles, Shrooms), training squad size, combat boost buildings, and cooldown (I will be able to start the next tournament with the boosts I played on Thursday). So a simplistic effectiveness model allows sophisticated players to find the loopholes like the Timewarp.

In addition the effectiveness model varies by the type of tournament. In this one, my LR&HR took the brunt of the casualties. So, would taking my Toad from level 12 to level 30 make this a tougher tournament for me? If yes, then the AW multiplier needs to be looked at.

I agree that applying the AW multiplier to the AWs we are all deleting should be fixed. I had longed planned to delete my EE. I will delete my BTG before the next tournament. I did not build some of the non-combat related AWs (Maze, Embassy. Lighthouse, PoP).

For me, the available time to manually fight is essential to my ability to go for first place. Manual fighting ENORMOUSLY reduces casualties. Players (if any) who routinely got first by auto-fighting 60x5 are understandably frustrated.

Now, the combat boosts are critical to offsetting the higher casualties. They allow different players to rotate into the first position as they accumulate a critical mass of boosts. So after the next tournament where I will take advantage of last week's boosts, I will settle down in to accumulation mode for my next run.

In my case, I am into CH17 and achieved my highest tournament score ever. I have max expansions. So obviously I have not hit the "wall" so many mention.

So in summary:
- the new system allows different dedicated fighters to "win" the tournament. The old system (in Ceravyn) had one or a small group of players always at the top.
- The new system makes it easier for players to go 6x(whatever) to get the tournament goodies. Many players struggled in the old system
- The new system makes 10 chest an afterthought for many FS. The old system had us checking to see who was not doing their "fair share" to get us to 10 chests.

It really sucks for the super players who thrived in the old tournament system. They are doing well in the new but not dominating. The new tournament system rewards effective manual fighting, accumulation of DAs and UUUs, and thus rotating leaderboards. Multiple Brown Bears no longer overwhelm the lack of DAs and UUUs.

So while I agree that the system could use nuanced tweaking of the AW multipliers(I'm deleting a couple), I like it so much better than old boring system.
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
This is an interesting thought experiment. My @Minimax CAL is 9033. When I take the Toads to L30, it is 9302. Is it possible to calculate the change in engagement probabilities between the two between the Orc Strategist and our much beloved Mist Walker? Assume 2xDA and 2xUUU to replicate my last tournament. I don't recall getting a kill on the return shot at any province level. Are there any provinces at an L30 Toad that give me a kill on the return shot. Absent a kill, how do the average relative casualties work out. (Yes, if I were truly motivated, I would build the sim myself).

This might be useful information for Inno to look at the AW multiplier.

Minimax CAL does not include the CH17 purchased expansions.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I think the effectiveness model is more complex. I cannot consider just squad size. Also going into the model is defense (MM), attack (multiple AWs), training speed (Needles, Shrooms), training squad size, combat boost buildings, and cooldown (I will be able to start the next tournament with the boosts I played on Thursday). So a simplistic effectiveness model allows sophisticated players to find the loopholes like the Timewarp.
Other than training speed not a single one of those factors is improved by completing chapter 16 or 17.
Progress =/= Progress

The exact same city with exact same wonders in chapter 16 is better than in chapter 17. That's dumb.
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
The exact same city with exact same wonders in chapter 16 is better than in chapter 17. That's dumb.
That is exactly what I am saying. For MOST players, the same city in CH17 will have upgraded AWs.
I 100% agree that if the AWs are maxed in CH16, there is no reason to move into CH17 if winning tournaments is your goal.
Indeed, if my focus is solely on winning tournaments, I should probably stop advancing in 17 and just work on my AWs.
Hmmmmm.
 

SoggyShorts

Well-Known Member
I 100% agree that if the AWs are maxed in CH16, there is no reason to move into CH17 if winning tournaments is your goal.
Indeed, if my focus is solely on winning tournaments, I should probably stop advancing in 17 and just work on my AWs.
Yup, even if AW are not maxed, what's the point of going into chapter 17, or in your case finishing it?
What do you get for that?
Do you unlock unit upgrades or techs that make you better at doing stuff (like the tournament)?
No, you do not.

So why bother?
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Without using any data, I can tell you that I am seeing more FS making 10 chests. This appears to be a big step upward. More FS are also getting gold on the spire at the same time. This does not conflict. The time instants from the spire equate to more troops. While I no longer can clear 60 provinces on a steel tournament, I do clear 25 every week, enough for 19 chests if everyone did that. I have no complaints worth mentioning. INNO made the tournament tougher on purpose placing AW levels into the formula. INNO is trying to halfway level the playing field. The alternative to making the tournament tougher is to eliminate folks with push accounts who maxed out their AWs in a way the devs did not intend to happen. Be careful what you complain about. The first rule of life: If you have a good thing going, be quiet about it.

The entry
That is exactly what I am saying. For MOST players, the same city in CH17 will have upgraded AWs.
I 100% agree that if the AWs are maxed in CH16, there is no reason to move into CH17 if winning tournaments is your goal.
Indeed, if my focus is solely on winning tournaments, I should probably stop advancing in 17 and just work on my AWs.
Hmmmmm.

You should consider wonders static, as you can get any level of them at any chapter as long as they are unlocked.
You can reach level 35 just as easy in chapter 15 as in chapter 17.

So even if in chapter 15 you only have lets say a level 15, advancing to chapter 16 does not help you at all.
because the improvements in chapter 15 are "better" than the improvements in chaptter 16, and as a bonus those 7000KP you need in chapter 16 are a nice few levels of that "good" wonder in chapter 15.
 

sam767

Well-Known Member
So even if in chapter 15 you only have lets say a level 15, advancing to chapter 16 does not help you at all.
because the improvements in chapter 15 are "better" than the improvements in chaptter 16, and as a bonus those 7000KP you need in chapter 16 are a nice few levels of that "good" wonder in chapter 15.
Understand:
My point is Inno probably modelled the new system on a player advancing and upgrading AWs so the tournaments get easier.
Your point is the tournaments will get easier faster if I stop advancing. I agree with that.
 

Clusseau

Active Member
I was not aware of the formula being impacted by the number of provinces cleared?
Also, I thought you could clear as many as you want but just cant get any more expansions after 525?

Right, number of provinces does not affect difficulty. That part refers to expectations.
That is, my interpretation of Inno's expectations. Inno thinks 510 provinces is as high as people should be, which would average about 57 per week. They have gauged difficulty so regularly completing that many is possible for only the most tournament-specific players.

People who's city progresses beyond capacity to complete 57 will find a Lot of Progress is needed for Little Gain.
And Real Players, who have already progressed FAR beyond that will find that they can No Longer complete them, and every advancement further reduces their capacity. (-Even Irrelevent Advances!)

Re: expansions; yes, they have capped the number of province expansions.
Some continue to explore to have more provinces available in weekly tournament, (=used to!).
ATM, benefits for continued explore include; more neighbors to aid when cash is needed, more neighbors for trade, score and KP for completing provinces, more powerful Dragon, Maze, and daily Seed production.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
if it were a little chopping, I wouldn't mind so much...

@InnoGames Why are you using a nerf-hammer when a surgical-strike was all that was needed?? Huh?? It's an ant, let's nuke it into oblivion!! Good job. :/

I am all for balance & ANY game being healthy...but wow! Was Thor's hammer really the way? :(

But, this isn't balanced either... It was Thor's hammer to create a greater imbalance than ever existed in the previous tournament, and harm clients who invested the most harmed the most.

The exact same city with exact same wonders in chapter 16 is better than in chapter 17. That's dumb.

That's incompetent.
 

GlamDoll

Well-Known Member
But, this isn't balanced either... It was Thor's hammer to create a greater imbalance than ever existed in the previous tournament, and harm clients who invested the most harmed the most.

Exactly. Why I have posted so much in this thread. It's all wrong. IDK what the solution is, but surely, this is not it. I really wanted to do ALL the chapters! Now? I am not seeing any reason to. :(
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
Exactly. Why I have posted so much in this thread. It's all wrong. IDK what the solution is, but surely, this is not it. I really wanted to do ALL the chapters! Now? I am not seeing any reason to. :(
I did chapter 17 and it was bad before and it is definitely much worse. I used to like this game and now every tournament I question why I'm still here. That is one of the things that show up in the threads a lot is that people aren't enjoying the game any more.

One of the things that I commented on early in the game that I thought Inno had done quite brilliantly was setting up the computer provinces that you battle and you can win. In other games where players battle each other the players that lose end up getting slaughtered, they don't like it, so they quit. So, now it isn't other players slaughtering us, they set the computer up to slaughter us, oh, and isn't that a lot of fun? NOT... There is a very consistent theme of just not enjoying the game anymore, and I can no longer say that what they had done was brilliant because by the changes they made, it was obviously an accident and not because of a good understanding of what makes a game enjoyable.

Anyway, I think I'm done. I get onto the game and every tournament I feel ripped off and cheated out of what I spent on the game and I am completely questioning my sanity as to why I did not remove myself from something that causes such huge and ongoing disdain months ago. Every tournament as I get totally slaughter the distain grows.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I did chapter 17 and it was bad before and it is definitely much worse. I used to like this game and now every tournament I question why I'm still here. That is one of the things that show up in the threads a lot is that people aren't enjoying the game any more.

One of the things that I commented on early in the game that I thought Inno had done quite brilliantly was setting up the computer provinces that you battle and you can win. In other games where players battle each other the players that lose end up getting slaughtered, they don't like it, so they quit. So, now it isn't other players slaughtering us, they set the computer up to slaughter us, oh, and isn't that a lot of fun? NOT... There is a very consistent theme of just not enjoying the game anymore, and I can no longer say that what they had done was brilliant because by the changes they made, it was obviously an accident and not because of a good understanding of what makes a game enjoyable.

Anyway, I think I'm done. I get onto the game and every tournament I feel ripped off and cheated out of what I spent on the game and I am completely questioning my sanity as to why I did not remove myself from something that causes such huge and ongoing disdain months ago. Every tournament as I get totally slaughter the distain grows.
Now, that is truly a shame, that Inno has made conditions so bad that dedicated high chapter players just don't want to play anymore!
 

DeletedUser27062

Guest
I did chapter 17 and it was bad before and it is definitely much worse. I used to like this game and now every tournament I question why I'm still here. That is one of the things that show up in the threads a lot is that people aren't enjoying the game any more.

One of the things that I commented on early in the game that I thought Inno had done quite brilliantly was setting up the computer provinces that you battle and you can win. In other games where players battle each other the players that lose end up getting slaughtered, they don't like it, so they quit. So, now it isn't other players slaughtering us, they set the computer up to slaughter us, oh, and isn't that a lot of fun? NOT... There is a very consistent theme of just not enjoying the game anymore, and I can no longer say that what they had done was brilliant because by the changes they made, it was obviously an accident and not because of a good understanding of what makes a game enjoyable.

Anyway, I think I'm done. I get onto the game and every tournament I feel ripped off and cheated out of what I spent on the game and I am completely questioning my sanity as to why I did not remove myself from something that causes such huge and ongoing disdain months ago. Every tournament as I get totally slaughter the distain grows.

I relate to this so much and I'm only in chapter 6 (in my most advanced city).

Inno utilises a complex and sophisticated psychological strategy to keep people like you and me playing.

The game is designed to pull you in early with loads of easy quests and lots of rewards. This way the player quickly accrues a decent stash of goodies to begin crafting their city. The individual nature of these cities ensures people feel special, that their cities are special and represent a unique aspect of their personality. Add to that the ability to prove oneself through fighting or competent production of goods and you have a fine recipe for success where people feel like they're able to make something of themselves in this virtual realm. That attachment to psychological needs sets the grounds for a very well developed strategy where they exploit the good old sunken cost fallacy - the emotional and financial investment in the city helps keep people investing. The longer people play the less likely they are to walk away.

Research has proven that people tend to work harder for longer at something when the rewards are inconsistent but this only holds true if a fair base has been established first. The fair base establishes the reward cycle - if I do task A then I get reward B, but if we change it so that when I do task A only sometimes do I get reward B then my anticipation of any reward at all is higher than when reward B was guaranteed. So, it's not the reward that releases the pleasure hormone, dopamine, but the anticipation of it. So long as Inno can continue to convince us that we have a chance of some reward we will continue to hang in there.
 

Dew Spinner

Well-Known Member
I relate to this so much and I'm only in chapter 6 (in my most advanced city).

Inno utilises a complex and sophisticated psychological strategy to keep people like you and me playing.

The game is designed to pull you in early with loads of easy quests and lots of rewards. This way the player quickly accrues a decent stash of goodies to begin crafting their city. The individual nature of these cities ensures people feel special, that their cities are special and represent a unique aspect of their personality. Add to that the ability to prove oneself through fighting or competent production of goods and you have a fine recipe for success where people feel like they're able to make something of themselves in this virtual realm. That attachment to psychological needs sets the grounds for a very well developed strategy where they exploit the good old sunken cost fallacy - the emotional and financial investment in the city helps keep people investing. The longer people play the less likely they are to walk away.

Research has proven that people tend to work harder for longer at something when the rewards are inconsistent but this only holds true if a fair base has been established first. The fair base establishes the reward cycle - if I do task A then I get reward B, but if we change it so that when I do task A only sometimes do I get reward B then my anticipation of any reward at all is higher than when reward B was guaranteed. So, it's not the reward that releases the pleasure hormone, dopamine, but the anticipation of it. So long as Inno can continue to convince us that we have a chance of some reward we will continue to hang in there.
The problem is that for high chapter cities there is NO reward anymore.
 
Top