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    Your Elvenar Team

Tournament Changes

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Thank you. Somehow the meaning of "squad size research has no impact" didn't resonate with me until you said it. I will go back and do the research now to help with world map exploration.

Don't do them yet. Save those researches for the next event and use them to complete the Research quests.

Oh, and @helya or @Nightguest can we get this pinned, so that it is easier to find and people do not get other threads mixed up with this one and not post here?
 
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Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
By the way, for people who want to know what kinds of numbers to expect on Tuesday, here are a couple of simple things that we worked out on Beta.

Your starting squad size for the first fight in the Spire is roughly equal to your squad size for the fight in the 1st star of the 5th tournament province.

Also, your normal, world map squad size will generally be in between your squad sizes for the 1st stars of the 9th and 10th provinces. For example, in my Beta city for the tournament this week, my world map squad was 519 and the tournament squads for those two fights were 497 and 553. This has fluctuated a little from being just less than the 9th province squad to just over the 10th province squad, but has stayed this way for me since the first week of the changes on Beta.
 

Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
By the way, for people who want to know what kinds of numbers to expect on Tuesday, here are a couple of simple things that we worked out on Beta.

Your starting squad size for the first fight in the Spire is roughly equal to your squad size for the fight in the 1st star of the 5th tournament province.

Also, your normal, world map squad size will generally be in between your squad sizes for the 1st stars of the 9th and 10th provinces. For example, in my Beta city for the tournament this week, my world map squad was 519 and the tournament squads for those two fights were 497 and 553. This has fluctuated a little from being just less than the 9th province squad to just over the 10th province squad, but has stayed this way for me since the first week of the changes on Beta.
This is entirely coincidental for your particular city. There is a very - very - weak correlation between regular squad size and new tournament squad sizes. E.g. In my city in the end game my regular squad size is 3081. My 10th province TSS will be ~7650. Someone with much larger city and roughly the same regular SS as mine will have 10th province TSS of more than 20K.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
This is entirely coincidental for your particular city. There is a very - very - weak correlation between regular squad size and new tournament squad sizes. E.g. In my city in the end game my regular squad size is 3081. My 10th province TSS will be ~7650. Someone with much larger city and roughly the same regular SS as mine will have 10th province TSS of more than 20K.

It has been accurate for every week of the new tournament on Beta, and for several chapters in my-almost chapter 7 city. But then, I have not bought any premium expansions there yet, so that may really show the penalty they cause in this new format. I should also say that I have completed all but the final research in chapter 6, including all the optional researches for squad sizes, so that is probably another reason my numbers keep matching so well as I progress. But I guess I will see on Tuesday how off this is or is not for my chapter 16 city on Live.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I would say Risen, you are the exception and not the norm. It is a city-building game first.
Did Risen claim otherwise? I seem to have missed the part where they said "nobody is going to buy expansions, or nobody is going to place AWs that don't help tournaments. No claims of representing the norm or speaking for anyone else, so why the need to criticize them for being an exception not the norm?
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I am misunderstanding something. In the current tournament, there is already a continuous increase in difficulty with each province opened: my round 1 in province 6 is significantly harder than my round 1 in province 1. The implication of the description is that is currently not the case. It is not just squad sizes getting bigger for both me and those shady characters, the enemy squads will often have higher rankings (number of stars) in the later provinces too. My ratio of losses are higher in the higher provinces.
Difficulty is measure as the number of their troops divided by the number of your troops. I like to express that as a percentage. Old style the difficulty for the first round is 85%, regardless of prov. Each round increased the difficulty by 15% with round 6 being 160%. It does not reflect the the ranking of the enemy troops, which does increase, but can only go to 3 star troops.

In the new style, the difficulty increase with each prov. It starts at 12.6%, which makes it much easier than the old style - for a while. By prov 7 it has grown to 88%. By prov 21 it is now just over 160%, which makes it as difficult as round 6 was. By prov 32, it's over 200%. The difficulty of a prov in the next round is the same as one prov number higher from the previous round. Example: Round 2, prov 6 will have the same difficulty as round 1, prov 7.

So, as prov number increases difficulty increases meaning your troop lose percentage will increase more than it did with just the higher star troops they bring. That lose is compounded by you having brought more troops to the battle.

For small prov numbers, fighting is a piece of cake and catering is cheap. For the first 5 or 6 provs you can choose the worse troops possible and still win in auto-fight.

I'll let others talk about how advancement in the game grows your tourney squad size more than squad size techs did.
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Another giant arse nerf we didn't need: the new tournament format will MASSIVELY screw players over in events, since now you're going to be forced to gobble up map encounters for both the, "solve 4 encounters OR 16 tournament encounters", etc... type quests, and the "gain X relics" quests...

It *used* to be that during events, I could for example, after the first round of the tournament do things like:
a) when getting a "solve X encounters OR Y tournament encounters", I could complete just 3 of the 4 encounters, and move on to the next province, there by leaving the relics unclaimed.

b) for the "gain X relics" quests, I would be able to gather up the single fight from the highest paying provinces, thus saving a few extra encounters for the inevitable next round of the "complete encounters/tournament encounters" quests.

But now? I'm fethed over completely, because the idiot devs are too lazy to fix the specific "encounters or tournament encounters" quests, meaning you're now basically forced to do potentially 10x (or more!) map encounters, as the tournaments don't count for jack anymore!
Even worse, your crafting is now basically forced to waste resources & keep a relic pack waiting to collect as a way to help make the "gain 20-30+ relics" quests even remotely sustainable.


Great change Inno - way to feth up the game to nearly unplayable levels. :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Another giant arse nerf we didn't need: the new tournament format will MASSIVELY screw players over in events, since now you're going to be forced to gobble up map encounters for both the, "solve 4 encounters OR 16 tournament encounters", etc... type quests, and the "gain X relics" quests...
The "solve 4 encounters OR 16 tournament encounters" has already changed to "solve 4 encounters OR 4 tournament encounters", but the "gain X relics" remains the same.
 

Myosmar

Member
I work in user experience field and maybe my pessimism comes from being so deep in the workings of product experience, but this change is extremely counter motivating to play Elvenar any further. Before anyone says 'we need to test and see for ourselves' or 'benefits outweigh costs'; I have already followed that in beta and MinMax's formula is 100% accurate. My thoughts on this are not based on personal opinion, but rather on numerical objective facts.

Let me explain why I feel so, there are two aspects of Elvenar;
1. Build and progress your city. Without this aspect there is no more reason to log in anymore or play any further.
2. Put the outcome of your effort to test and get gratification for the time and thought you put in it.

Without the second aspect of testing, choices and planning done for the first aspect become pointless. That reward system that tells you how well you did is what pushes you towards wanting more out of your city.

Let's look at the things that fall under first category, Build and Progress aspect; Research, Expansions, Building and leveling AWs, upgrading buildings, improving layout, optimazing number of building types (culture/residence/WS/resource buildings).
Inno's business model relies on people wanting more out of their cities or wanting it faster. Collector's drive is particularly a big push for wanting more AWs and keeping event buildings and therefore needing more space, as well as hoarder's drive for people wanting more resource buildings hence needing more space for them (and the residence/WS need they create). Even when I know I am being tricked into their business model I didn't have a problem with paying money for what I want, that extra space that will satisfy my drive of wanting more.

And that drive was gratified by the way Inno set up how I can put my effort and (time and money) investment to test: Spire and Tournaments. I enjoyed doing better than before once I invested a bit more into planning as well as time/money.

Now it is a clear fact, (not an opinion but rather a mathematical calculation reality) there are two high optimum points in terms of how well your city can perform in the test part. One is as early as Orc chapter, other is mid-15 chapter. If you do the optimized Orc chapter build, you can stop there and your progress will only make your success in spire and tourney worse till you hit that next optimum point at chap 15. And beyond that there is no rewards, just downsides to any change you do in terms of build and progress.

I do not like the idea of stop progressing at such an early chapter at Orcs, and intend to keep pushing to 15. But knowing that at point I will have to stop makes me really unmotivated to progress faster. Knowing that there is nothing more I will want out of my city at that point, combined with having no reason to want it faster; makes me disengaged. What baffles my mind is that it is 100% againt Inno's business model interests as well!

My thought is that they assumed players would never know about these facts, but we DO know thanks to efforts of many. One would think that since this is the case now, Inno as a business would improve things. But sadly I am involved in how things work enough to know that; Inno upper management decided that this game has enough content and it should cease development costs for more content; then some middle manager was tasked with reducing player progression speed; and some developer was tasked by that middle manager to accomplish that. At this point admitting their work is poor quality will make that developer and the middle manager look bad, so they will pressure community manager to keep people happy, and paid community manager will pressure unpaid volunteer moderators to achieve that. Those moderators who one day want a paid community manager role will try to do so. And this will be the end of the story. A sad end to a beautiful game..
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
I have to question your reasoning on your 3 points.

1. Are you saying that the extra space provided by an expansion is not worth a cost increase in tournaments?
2. Isn't that what you're supposed to do anyway? Why would you place anything in your city that doesn't help you?
3. Related to #1. Advancing in research and the benefits granted by such is somehow worse than having a slight cost increase for tournament encounters?

You have to consider the benefits of what you're claiming that you're going to give up, rather than just the 'negative' of having a cost increase in Tournaments. Or are you honestly suggesting that never placing an expansion, building no AWs, and stopping all research once Tournaments are unlocked is somehow superior to continuing to expand and develop your city?

Research, expansions and wonderlevels have a limited "net gain" for a certain time.
Once you reach a certain treshold these 3 factors will turn into a net loss, and with each of them your tournament will become more difficult instead of "easier / the same"

For example at start the differences between players in the same part of the game will be 400-1000%, this means that some people will have 4-10X lower costs to play the tournament when they are at the same stage in the game.

As some players will built "optimised" new accounts these differences can go up to 15000% realistically (and 45000% theoretically)

For years people have complained about the SS research issue which is 30-40%?, with up to 15.000% they upped the ante.

the "best" excuse we got that is was to discourage people to push. but as someone mentioned on the international version of the game.
Burning down the house to get rid of a mouse infestation is not the most wise action to take.
 

LutherTheHairy

Active Member
For small prov numbers, fighting is a piece of cake and catering is cheap. For the first 5 or 6 provs you can choose the worse troops possible and still win in auto-fight.

Not so. I only have six provinces open. I picked 4 mage and an HR squad and auto-fought on stage 3 maybe it was in province 4 today. Wiped out. Then I manually played *the exact same lineup* and lost only half of one of the mage squads.

I'll get back to you on whether the ratio of enemy squad size to my squad size changes with provinces in the same round when I fight soon. Feels like it does
 

Veveaucent

New Member
As a predominantly mobile player, I really would have preferred they spend developer resources on bringing manual battle to mobile. I'm not even against the changes they are making to the tournament. One battle per province, lower catering cost in relation to battle costs, a new tier of challenge rewards and unlinking tournament difficulty difficulty from squad size are all great ideas. To be clear I think Inno has some great ideas here. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see their tournament scaling system is a bad idea. I dont know what's so hard about having 16 levels of difficulty (one for each chapter).
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Not so. I only have six provinces open. I picked 4 mage and an HR squad and auto-fought on stage 3 maybe it was in province 4 today. Wiped out. Then I manually played *the exact same lineup* and lost only half of one of the mage squads.

I'll get back to you on whether the ratio of enemy squad size to my squad size changes with provinces in the same round when I fight soon. Feels like it does

This does not start til Tuesday on the US servers, so the early provinces are not easier yet.

And yes, in the new system, the troop difference increases the more provinces you do, unlike the current system, where the 1st star of the 1st province and the 1st star of the 25th province are both the same, with enemy troops at 85% of yours.
 

Risen Malchiah

Well-Known Member
But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see their tournament scaling system is a bad idea. I dont know what's so hard about having 16 levels of difficulty (one for each chapter).
Some chapters are very large. It would suck to unlock a new chapter and suddenly face a massive increase in difficulty without any of the benefits yet.

My proposal for an intuitive tournament formula:

If tournament difficulty were based on *mandatory* squad upgrades only, then the difficulty would rise in small, predictable increments throughout all chapters. Then *optional* squad upgrades could improve the player vs enemy ratio so there is a tangible benefit for those who want to fight without costing anything for those who opt to cater.

It accomplishes all the design changes that Inno seems to want without punishing players for progression, while being very easy for players to understand. It also allows Inno to control how deep into a tournament players can reasonably go at various points of progression. For instance, more optional squad techs would eventually improve enemy ratios enough to let players pass previously unwinnable provinces (short of using troop buffs).

It also gives players a choice: Stay in your current chapter for a while and devote time toward improving AWs to increase tournament strength. OR push forward in the tech tree for more optional (and now desirable) squad upgrades to improve performance.
 
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edeba

Well-Known Member
I am misunderstanding something. In the current tournament, there is already a continuous increase in difficulty with each province opened: my round 1 in province 6 is significantly harder than my round 1 in province 1. The implication of the description is that is currently not the case. It is not just squad sizes getting bigger for both me and those shady characters, the enemy squads will often have higher rankings (number of stars) in the later provinces too. My ratio of losses are higher in the higher provinces. This is not just a squad size thing.

It looks like the description is saying that round 2 in province 1 will be incrementally harder than round 1 in province 6. Is that what you are trying to say?
The difficulty is a measure of enemy troop size as compared to yours. In the 4-click tournament all of level 1 is 85% difficulty, level 2 100%, and each level up by 15%. There is also a squad size increase with each province, which is basically the province you are on times the troop size for province 1. So, difficulty doesn't increases, but relative losses do. If you lose 5% of 100 troops at province 1, you would expect to lose 5% of 2000 troops at province 20. They did round losses down for the 4 click tournament so certainly the first couple provinces would seem easier.

Now how the difficulty increases a more complicated, but there are 21 encounters that are less difficult than anything that was in the 4-click tournament ( the first 6 provinces level 1, the first 5 provinces level 2, the first 4 provinces level 3, the first 3 provinces level 4, the first two provinces level 5 and the first province in level 6).

For level 1 from province 7 on, every encounter is more difficult than level 1 of the 4 click tournament (greater than 85%). By province 23, every encounter is more difficult than level 6 of the 4-click tournament (greater than 160%)

For level 2, which was 100% difficulty in the 4-click tournament, every encounter from province 8 an on is more difficult and by province 22, everything is more difficult than 160%.

For level 3, which was 115% difficulty in the 4-click tournament, every province from province 10 is more difficult, and by province 21 everything is more difficult than 160%.

For level 4, which was 130% difficulty, every province from province 12 is more difficulty and by province 20 everything is more difficult than 160%.

For level 5, which was 145% difficulty, and the highest difficulty many player play, by the 15th provinces everything is more difficult and by the 19th province everything is more difficult than 160%.

For level 6, which was 160%, everything up to 17 is easier and from province 18, more difficult. But this is a level that many only played the first 9 provinces because after 9 provinces you get a rune and broken rune and unless you need them, it isn't worth the resources.

Once you get to province 18, the difficulty of each subsequent province increases by 3.6%. Province 33 is the last provinces with anything with a difficulty below 200%, but the last province below 200% on level 6 comes 5 provinces earlier.


@qaccy
1. Yes, some expansions help improve your city in the tournament since space lets you upgrade your barracks, or add factories for catering etc. but if you use space for decoration, FA, events, or settlements, those are going to hurt you going forwards. Buying space used to either help you, or at worst was neutral.
2. Again, some AW help your city with tournaments, some like the BTG do not. This comes down again to space hurting you.
3. Yet again, some techs increase your abilities in the tournament, most do not. Inno claims the balance favors progress, but they are mistaken.

A few points of clarification:
Yes, choices should matter, that's what makes games interesting, but the choice to not advance or grow or improve shouldn't be encouraged.
Inno's basic mistakes in their calculation are conceptual. E.g. if you upgrade a wonder that increases your catering ability by 1.1% and increases the costs by 1% then inno thinks this is a win for the player. The problem is if you don't cater 100% of the time then that 1.1% drops well below the cost increase and you have hurt yourself by upgrading your wonder.
--------------------------------------
The old system was simple:
"oh these SS techs will make the tournament a little harder, so I better push on and get that next barracks upgrade"
and either the barracks upgrade made you better than you were before, or not quite.
If it wasn't quite enough, you could hang out for a bit and "grind" by upgrading wonders, clearing the map for expansions to increase goods productions, etc. Many options were there and they were all good.

Now every choice comes with a downside that almost always outweighs the good because each difficulty increase is multiplied by each other and affects both catering and fighting but the upsides do not.
Excellent explanation!

I have several concerns. First, separating the military production queues was a good change. But there was no compensating change in supplies required.
Just wait until the slaughter to the ability to get PoP spells catches up. Already people are using more PoP for supplies and they can not be replenished from the tournament like you could before because the vastly increased difficulty prevents you from going very far.

Second, the changes reduce the difficulty of lower province later rounds, while increasing the difficulty of higher province early rounds. When there's a 16-hour wait between rounds many players never reach the last round or two. The result is harder fights to reach the same points.
I've suggested a couple times the tournament time be increased to 4.5 or 5 days. If you don't have the time warp, it is really difficult to get 6 levels in and I think you have to mess up at least one night's sleep. People that are doing say 25 to 40 provinces for level 1 and 2 but do say 10 provinces for the higher levels, but only get up to level 4 are going to be hard hit by this new tournament

Fifth, magnificant mage and enlightened light range buildings are obsolete. There's no point in crafting a building that may or may not help in any given encounter. Keep unleashed unit upgrades and add a general troop attack increase. Move dwarven armorer to the magic academy because they're too rare in the spire and many players don't get many chests.
At 3.6% increase per province, in something like 7 provinces difficulty has increased by 25%, so it is even less useful...


Another giant arse nerf we didn't need: the new tournament format will MASSIVELY screw players over in events, since now you're going to be forced to gobble up map encounters for both the, "solve 4 encounters OR 16 tournament encounters", etc... type quests, and the "gain X relics" quests...

It *used* to be that during events, I could for example, after the first round of the tournament do things like:
a) when getting a "solve X encounters OR Y tournament encounters", I could complete just 3 of the 4 encounters, and move on to the next province, there by leaving the relics unclaimed.

b) for the "gain X relics" quests, I would be able to gather up the single fight from the highest paying provinces, thus saving a few extra encounters for the inevitable next round of the "complete encounters/tournament encounters" quests.

But now? I'm fethed over completely, because the idiot devs are too lazy to fix the specific "encounters or tournament encounters" quests, meaning you're now basically forced to do potentially 10x (or more!) map encounters, as the tournaments don't count for jack anymore!
Even worse, your crafting is now basically forced to waste resources & keep a relic pack waiting to collect as a way to help make the "gain 20-30+ relics" quests even remotely sustainable.


Great change Inno - way to feth up the game to nearly unplayable levels. :mad: :mad: :rolleyes:
With the old tournament players could just add 5 or 10 provinces to help. That just isn't possible with the new tournament, so now your going to want to hold off in case a quest is coming up and this is happening in the time squeeze of trying to get more levels in... I think the events are going to be a lot harder for some players with the new tournament.
 
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