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    Your Elvenar Team

Tournament Changes

DeletedUser19458

Guest
@ElegantZara
Number 1 should still be number 1 when the dust settles. The dust has not settled yet. Not everyone has gone all out yet. Are the new "champs" repeat performers?
Steel I can usually be in the top 5 on our server. This go around I only got to 29. Going all out as normal. Higher was possible, but not sustainable and without long term damage to future tournies.
 

hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
yes this is an opinion piece as i do not believe inno reads or cares what is said by players, it seems obvious as they continue to ignore beta complaint from their actions of releasing to live .. i like the goodies, and the fellowship is designed to get the goodies, and the best goodies are in the tournament and spire, but i'm reading a lot of i don't see my name at the top of a list, how are we and others supposed to know we are great players ? yes there is a loss of kp and relics and spells for advanced players, and a giant loophole still in the tournament scoring system, but people who seem to have the need to see their name at the top of a list are sort of missing out i think .. yes inno put on their asshats and came up with a terrible system to motivate players to advance, they are losing players from this and will see a loss in purchases i think due to asshatness .. it's going to be a puzzle trying to figure out how to stay motivated and continue once reaching the end game (a phrase i dislike as i was not planning on quitting even at last chapter but now who knows, i am enjoying the game less as i try to figure our how to slow down and not get to the last chapter which is a complete rethink on how to play the game lol) so instead of taking it as a personal insult that others can no longer see a name at the top of a list .. i'm more of a this is gong to wreck a game that people were really enjoying ..take off the asshats inno and get back in the game to play
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
i'm reading a lot of i don't see my name at the top of a list
I see this too. I was missing the implied "I worked for years to get to the top".

This is a valid complaint.

a giant loophole still in the tournament scoring system,

I am not seeing this. I am not seeing a bunch of under developed cities on the leaderboards. For an end game chapter 16 player to point at another end game chapter 16 player and say..."small under developed cities" is not reasonable, imo.
 

Clusseau

Active Member
Steel I can usually be in the top 5 on our server. This go around I only got to 29. Going all out as normal. Higher was possible, but not sustainable and without long term damage to future tournies.
@ElegantZara

The drop was a lot more than that. The question is, is the drop balanced.

Number 1 should still be number 1 when the dust settles. The dust has not settled yet. Not everyone has gone all out yet. Are the new "champs" repeat performers?


Honestly, im not sure what "go all out" means?
Apart from simply throwing things in the trash, it would be difficult to exhaust my current resources over a 9 week cycle.
Like Mykan, Crazywizard, Meggi- i try to keep expenses (and Effort) within sustainable ranges, for long term play.

The tally for two tournaments so far; I spent 15 troop bonuses, 3-5x as much time, and about 2x as many time instants (for troops)- and my troop inventory finished down about 3000 squads. This is about as "all out" as i'll go.
The result compared to my preceding Marble/Steel tournaments was 13K fewer points, and a lot of new names in the top 10.

@Eliphas Solomon was correct- and Understated- about Marble results.
In that tournament (it may be the ONLY ONE), due to emphasis on Heavy Melee enemies, it was often possible to entirely avoid being hit, and so tournament results (and standings) were closer to "normal-reasonable-expected".

Its no longer about winning battles.
It is no longer about being stronger, or better fighter, putting in more effort, (or going All Out).
There is a Lid on advanced players, where taking even a single minor hit to win 6KP is no longer an acceptable cost.
Taking these "minor hits" is more likely if enemy has more ranged units (of ANY KIND), or where you must use (ANY) melee units to win.

Sure, this could be a simple adjustment to the New Normal. Things have changed, get used to it. The real stink of it is that Other Players are free of this limit. And Advanced players would also be free of it, if not for their last 1-2yrs of hard work!

INNO has decided that the Herd is Running too fast, (in various ways?).
Rather than USE any of Dozens of Sensible Suggestions to Slow it Down... or to get those at the rear out of the dust....
They simply put a Cliff in the path of the herd?! (OH, and widen the field, so those in back can catch up Faster??)

I may start using "Stale Beer" as my Tagline...
Its in Garage Fridge for a long time.. now getting it out, pouring into a frosted mug... sniffing, sipping...
But There may be no Saving it (=Elvenar), -and a Dump is coming.

And, Elvenar may have already decided-
Players like me, (and Players about to "Become Me")... are already stale beer.... They want us Gone.
 
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Clusseau

Active Member

They have may have worked as hard, or harder, but they have not advanced as far.
They are (currently) able to score at-will.

It may be for them, there are Provinces not worth taking to L5... or even Battles too expensive for 6KP prize...
but not yet that a Single minor Hit puts 6kp out of reach. Those are players that i say are Free of This Limit.

Adding another L16 AW... or a few expansions... some simple progress, will slam their head against this ceiling.
= stale beer
 
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Deleted User - 3932582

Guest
How are other players free of this limit?
There are actions in this game that you either cannot undo (unlocking research, placing expansions), or it is extremely expensive to do so (tearing down developed AWs). Newer players can adjust to the new environment by taking actions that are effective and efficient on a going forward basis, to get to the new optimal equilibrium. Unfortunately, outside of starting a new city from scratch, highly optimized cities for the old regime are mechanically unable to reach this new equilibrium because of the above.
 

Clusseau

Active Member
There are actions in this game that you either cannot undo (unlocking research, placing expansions), or it is extremely expensive to do so (tearing down developed AWs). Newer players can adjust to the new environment by taking actions that are effective and efficient on a going forward basis, to get to the new optimal equilibrium. Unfortunately, outside of starting a new city from scratch, highly optimized cities for the old regime are mechanically unable to reach this new equilibrium because of the above.

Yes, that is perhaps a tighter focus on the point. .

Building a City, directed at Tournament Success, is no longer viable.
Using Tournament Success as a tool to Build your City is no longer viable.
Using Tournament Success as a tool to measure your success against others is no longer viable.

=welcome to Farmville.

=stale beer
 

DeletedUser19418

Guest
Yes, that is perhaps a tighter focus on the point. .

Building a City, directed at Tournament Success, is no longer viable.
Using Tournament Success as a tool to Build your City is no longer viable.
Using Tournament Success as a tool to measure your success against others is no longer viable.

=welcome to Farmville.

=stale beer
That is the rub...
Why do tournaments now? You get KPs, but unless you plan to drop your KPs into AWs, assuming you're done with research, you will only make the ongoing tournaments less fun and less profitable. This is such a short-sighted strategy to garner more interest from casual/newer players. Not to mention keeping this secret until they invest hundreds of dollars (some have spent thousands of dollars) into the game.

Financial Malpractice?
 

Nightguest

Ex-Team Member
Alright folks, how's it going?
Ok, I know that it's not going that well right now, I've been talking to some of you privately, have read this thread, and I do get where you're all coming from.

Truth be told, @helya and I have spent pretty much the entire day talking-somewhat-sternly (make of that what you will) to a few people in Innogames regarding this entire situation and I do have a 'sort of' update for you - but it is not a final/fixed answer just yet.

Why no solid answer you ask?
That is simply due to the complexity of this topic and all of the 'if/else if/else' modifiers that each individual player throws out when taking deeper dive into it.

Here's an example for you (this happened today):

Reading through this thread I'd say that the majority of points (pro and con) that have been brought up are valid. That said, valid and factually correct are not the same. Take the perceived role of the AW levels in the tournament as an example. For the majority of players, the role of the AW level has been greatly exaggerated and is not the controlling factor of the tournament state. However, I used the word majority and not 'all' as we (Helya, myself, and the leads for Elvenar at Inno) have been looking at the accounts of some of the more vocal people involved in this thread on a case by case basis.

The results of this were quite interesting and it essentially showed the Inno team that they do need to look into the tournament performance on a more individual basis (player by player) instead of an average of the server(s) - and that is what they are doing now. What's more, I have been looking at the various formulas that have been made by the community for the tournament system and cannot verify that they are entirely accurate. That said, I'm not saying that they are definitely wrong, what I mean is that the entire thing is rather complex and I will give you some answer only when I am certain of being correct (the last thing I want to do is look like an idj-stick getting facts wrong).

The certainty aspect is the other reason why I do not have a solid answer yet. I have been looking into what the actual Innogames design is for the tournament and let's say that within 10 min of reading the first page, my head started to spin even though I was on the peak effectiveness of my prescribed Concerta pills I felt my brain itch. Wtf do I mean by that? It means that I'm going to bury myself into the design docs tonight/tomorrow/however long to understand it by heart, then get the team to verify that I got it right, and only then get back to you regarding where (if at all) the main mistakes have been made in regards to the formula for tournaments.

Now I need to be entirely clear, this DOES NOT MEAN that I am promising a change, nor do I even want to give the impression that the scales are tipped either way - what it means is that the scales are being looked at as new evidence has been brought to light. Until today that was not the case.

I really need you all to understand the importance of me saying that this is not a promise/hint/commitment as if rumors start that I am promising something it will spiral out of control extremely fast and I will be told to stfu until a final decision is made which will simply be far worse for the community. I am writing this to you 'now' as I do not feel that it is right to wait for a decision to be made and that you all deserve to know what is going on behind the scenes.

What's more, in the interest of some transparency, I do want to make clear that this is not going to be a quick decision either. The team looking into this have stated that as the tournament system is now open to far more players than before (and from what we've found looking at a select few individuals) they need to now expand the 'individual account research' and compare it to the previous assumptions, estimations, and calculated predictions.

Ok, I've rambled on a bit too long here - but I hope that you can follow what we (Helya and I) have been doing with Inno - and know that we are doing our best to shed some light on this all - and more. We only ask that you be patient with us this was never going to be a quick fix.

I will make a commitment to you all to be much more active on these forums and really engage with you to get to the heart of your thoughts and concerns, so I encourage anyone/everyone to point their own feelings (pro/con) of the new tournament system - if they have not done so already.

I'll see what more I can do for you to improve communications over the next few days as well.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Alright folks, how's it going?
Ok, I know that it's not going that well right now, I've been talking to some of you privately, have read this thread, and I do get where you're all coming from.

Truth be told, @helya and I have spent pretty much the entire day talking-somewhat-sternly (make of that what you will) to a few people in Innogames regarding this entire situation and I do have a 'sort of' update for you - but it is not a final/fixed answer just yet.

Why no solid answer you ask?
That is simply due to the complexity of this topic and all of the 'if/else if/else' modifiers that each individual player throws out when taking deeper dive into it.

Here's an example for you (this happened today):

Reading through this thread I'd say that the majority of points (pro and con) that have been brought up are valid. That said, valid and factually correct are not the same. Take the perceived role of the AW levels in the tournament as an example. For the majority of players, the role of the AW level has been greatly exaggerated and is not the controlling factor of the tournament state. However, I used the word majority and not 'all' as we (Helya, myself, and the leads for Elvenar at Inno) have been looking at the accounts of some of the more vocal people involved in this thread on a case by case basis.

The results of this were quite interesting and it essentially showed the Inno team that they do need to look into the tournament performance on a more individual basis (player by player) instead of an average of the server(s) - and that is what they are doing now. What's more, I have been looking at the various formulas that have been made by the community for the tournament system and cannot verify that they are entirely accurate. That said, I'm not saying that they are definitely wrong, what I mean is that the entire thing is rather complex and I will give you some answer only when I am certain of being correct (the last thing I want to do is look like an idj-stick getting facts wrong).

The certainty aspect is the other reason why I do not have a solid answer yet. I have been looking into what the actual Innogames design is for the tournament and let's say that within 10 min of reading the first page, my head started to spin even though I was on the peak effectiveness of my prescribed Concerta pills I felt my brain itch. Wtf do I mean by that? It means that I'm going to bury myself into the design docs tonight/tomorrow/however long to understand it by heart, then get the team to verify that I got it right, and only then get back to you regarding where (if at all) the main mistakes have been made in regards to the formula for tournaments.

Now I need to be entirely clear, this DOES NOT MEAN that I am promising a change, nor do I even want to give the impression that the scales are tipped either way - what it means is that the scales are being looked at as new evidence has been brought to light. Until today that was not the case.

I really need you all to understand the importance of me saying that this is not a promise/hint/commitment as if rumors start that I am promising something it will spiral out of control extremely fast and I will be told to stfu until a final decision is made which will simply be far worse for the community. I am writing this to you 'now' as I do not feel that it is right to wait for a decision to be made and that you all deserve to know what is going on behind the scenes.

What's more, in the interest of some transparency, I do want to make clear that this is not going to be a quick decision either. The team looking into this have stated that as the tournament system is now open to far more players than before (and from what we've found looking at a select few individuals) they need to now expand the 'individual account research' and compare it to the previous assumptions, estimations, and calculated predictions.

Ok, I've rambled on a bit too long here - but I hope that you can follow what we (Helya and I) have been doing with Inno - and know that we are doing our best to shed some light on this all - and more. We only ask that you be patient with us this was never going to be a quick fix.

I will make a commitment to you all to be much more active on these forums and really engage with you to get to the heart of your thoughts and concerns, so I encourage anyone/everyone to point their own feelings (pro/con) of the new tournament system - if they have not done so already.

I'll see what more I can do for you to improve communications over the next few days as well.
Thank you so much for this thoughtful answer. I don't envy you the task of trying to honestly evaluate something while dealing with all the upset players. It would be irresponsible to promise anything, and I'm glad you chose the honest path. You have a tough job, and I for one appreciate you doing it. Thank you.
 

helya

Beloved Ex-Team Member
Now that some level of communication is open it would be nice if as a community we can be respectful to Nightguest and Helya.

We know there is a lot of frustration right now, and no disrespect has been taken. Even though it can sometimes feel like we don't care, or are not listening, please know that we have read every single post here, and we spent a good amount of time trying to both voice your frustrations and also get a bit of clarification on the things that are actually affecting the difficulty for players.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I'll see what more I can do for you to improve communications over the next few days as well.
Thank you.
What's more, I have been looking at the various formulas that have been made by the community for the tournament system and cannot verify that they are entirely accurate.
I'm sure the equations developed by the community aren't the way the program actually computes the base squad size. The equation is just a model which seem to have a high degree of accuracy with reality due to people providing a lot of data about their city and the base tourney squad size. Using @MinMax Gamer's spreadsheet, my expected tourney size differed from the actual by 0.2% last week and by 0.1% this week. So, his model is a very good predictor, which is all you can ask from a model.
 

Clusseau

Active Member
I used the word majority and not 'all' as we (Helya, myself, and the leads for Elvenar at Inno) have been looking at the accounts of some of the more vocal people involved in this thread on a case by case basis.

Now I need to be entirely clear, this DOES NOT MEAN that I am promising a change, nor do I even want to give the impression that the scales are tipped either way - what it means is that the scales are being looked at as new evidence has been brought to light. Until today that was not the case.

I really need you all to understand the importance of me saying that this is not a promise/hint/commitment as if rumors start that I am promising something it will spiral out of control extremely fast and I will be told to stfu until a final decision is made which will simply be far worse for the community. I am writing this to you 'now' as I do not feel that it is right to wait for a decision to be made and that you all deserve to know what is going on behind the scenes.


What's more, in the interest of some transparency, I do want to make clear that this is not going to be a quick decision either. The team looking into this have stated that as the tournament system is now open to far more players than before (and from what we've found looking at a select few individuals) they need to now expand the 'individual account research' and compare it to the previous assumptions, estimations, and calculated predictions.

Man... i Suppose, like Anyone- im thinking "My Case" might be worth a look...
But i May not have been Vocal Enough in the Forums for INNO to look at?? ?

Inno is Just Now ... -(EN has tournament for 7 weeks, Beta for 9?)- ... Just Now looking at what it DOES to People??
AYFKM???

and- no Promises? SO... After such LONG Consideration, they may STILL like what they See?!
... or, at least consider me (and Folks Like Me) to be simple collateral damage??

(="oops, Sorry, you're screwed.... but Everyone else is happy.. sort of....for now...
...and Im sure your lower-ranked guildies will appreciate a Goods Dump before you leave")...

I truly wasnt expecting promises of any kind Today, Or even confirmation of progress.
But --also not expecting to hear that INNO is So Far Behind the curve on this....

(=stale beer)
 
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