Tournament Changes

[Nightguest]

Thank you so much for this thoughtful answer. I don't envy you the task of trying to honestly evaluate something while dealing with all the upset players. It would be irresponsible to promise anything, and I'm glad you chose the honest path. You have a tough job, and I for one appreciate you doing it. Thank you.

You're very welcome, in the end, both Helya and I are here for you (the community) so being appreciated, especially in tougher situations is really welcomed!

Honestly, the part that I'm most glad about right now is that you're being very understanding of the unable to promise yet section. The phrase caught between a rock and a hard place is very true here!

Now that some level of communication is open it would be nice if as a community we can be respectful to Nightguest and Helya. They are legitimately going above and beyond to create the feedback we have wanted.

Likewise, thank you, I do hope that ultimately we can both deliver something to the community. But as with all things, time will tell.

So, his model is a very good predictor, which is all you can ask from a model.

I may have not written that part correctly (my mind was getting fuzzy to the end as I wrote/re-wrote/deleted and re-wrote many parts of it). So let me make this clear, I actually appreciate Min's efforts to help the community with their tools. I know that there have been some rough patches but in the end, that Min cares enough about the community to make these in the first place is to be commended.

The issue that I wanted to bring up is that though I want to verify the accuracy of the formula, right now I cannot as there are far too many things that I need to verify for myself. Honestly speaking, it would be epic if it was right (or at least very close to being) as that would make our jobs so much easier, so while I study the intended parts, I am rooting for Min

Man... i Suppose, like Anyone- im thinking "My Case" might be worth a look...
But i May not have been Vocal Enough in the Forums for INNO to look at?? ?

I urge you to read the entirety of my post and not just get annoyed that I didn't contact you.
In fact, I'd like to point out that I did not state that I had spoken to everyone whose accounts we looked into, so how can you know that we didn't include you in the first place? I spoke to a few people personally (not all) and after that, I was practically picked by the ears and thrown at Meggi, (though I don't mind at all as she was able to explain her position beautifully and it was all easy to follow and very clear).

and- no Promises? SO... After such LONG Consideration, they may STILL like what they See?!

To be frank, yes, there are people that like the changes, there have been some in this thread that wrote their support for it (unless I've totally misunderstood them or entirely missed the sarcasm) and some that have contacted me privately to tell me that they like it - and yes that does include end-game players as well. However, more importantly, after today's impromptu meeting with the Elvenar leads, we dove into the wants, needs, and gameplay style of Elvenar players as a whole. What we found was that the US community is very much the exception to the norm when looking at how players play the game and how Fellowship leaders run their Fellowships (you lot are better, more accepting, and more helpful towards newer players - this apparently does not exist in many other servers).

Furthermore, there are markets out there that tolerate-and-even-enjoy the changes, and yes this includes end game players as well. I did not believe this at first and asked to see the reports - and well - yeah, it is true.

I am here for the US community - so I am here for you. However, you cannot assume that just because something is disliked here, it means that 'everyone else' dislikes it as well. That is not true even if we looked on just the US servers and it is not true if we look at all the other servers.

As for the rest of your message, I honestly can't make heads or tails out of it.
If you'd like me to address specfic points that you may have, I'm happy to do so, but please do try to write your questions a bit clearer.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

@Nightguest @helya Whatever you do or do not look at, and whoever you do or do not listen to, I really hope your numbers take into account what percent of the small percent of the tournament-focused players who have been complaining, actually pay money into this game. It has been my experience in other games that the most hardcore and vocal players also brag about getting that far/elite without ever paying any money at all. So that last thing I would want to see is more adjustments that will hurt the more mid-level and casual players who do put money into the game, just to make a small group of "free-for-life" players happy. And this is not calling out anyone specific here or on the Beta forum, as none of them have said which type they are, that I have seen.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Alright folks, how's it going?
Ok, I know that it's not going that well right now, I've been talking to some of you privately, have read this thread, and I do get where you're all coming from.

Truth be told, @helya and I have spent pretty much the entire day talking-somewhat-sternly (make of that what you will) to a few people in Innogames regarding this entire situation and I do have a 'sort of' update for you - but it is not a final/fixed answer just yet.

Why no solid answer you ask?
That is simply due to the complexity of this topic and all of the 'if/else if/else' modifiers that each individual player throws out when taking deeper dive into it.

Here's an example for you (this happened today):

Reading through this thread I'd say that the majority of points (pro and con) that have been brought up are valid. That said, valid and factually correct are not the same. Take the perceived role of the AW levels in the tournament as an example. For the majority of players, the role of the AW level has been greatly exaggerated and is not the controlling factor of the tournament state. However, I used the word majority and not 'all' as we (Helya, myself, and the leads for Elvenar at Inno) have been looking at the accounts of some of the more vocal people involved in this thread on a case by case basis.

The results of this were quite interesting and it essentially showed the Inno team that they do need to look into the tournament performance on a more individual basis (player by player) instead of an average of the server(s) - and that is what they are doing now. What's more, I have been looking at the various formulas that have been made by the community for the tournament system and cannot verify that they are entirely accurate. That said, I'm not saying that they are definitely wrong, what I mean is that the entire thing is rather complex and I will give you some answer only when I am certain of being correct (the last thing I want to do is look like an idj-stick getting facts wrong).

The certainty aspect is the other reason why I do not have a solid answer yet. I have been looking into what the actual Innogames design is for the tournament and let's say that within 10 min of reading the first page, my head started to spin even though I was on the peak effectiveness of my prescribed Concerta pills I felt my brain itch. Wtf do I mean by that? It means that I'm going to bury myself into the design docs tonight/tomorrow/however long to understand it by heart, then get the team to verify that I got it right, and only then get back to you regarding where (if at all) the main mistakes have been made in regards to the formula for tournaments.

Now I need to be entirely clear, this DOES NOT MEAN that I am promising a change, nor do I even want to give the impression that the scales are tipped either way - what it means is that the scales are being looked at as new evidence has been brought to light. Until today that was not the case.

I really need you all to understand the importance of me saying that this is not a promise/hint/commitment as if rumors start that I am promising something it will spiral out of control extremely fast and I will be told to stfu until a final decision is made which will simply be far worse for the community. I am writing this to you 'now' as I do not feel that it is right to wait for a decision to be made and that you all deserve to know what is going on behind the scenes.

What's more, in the interest of some transparency, I do want to make clear that this is not going to be a quick decision either. The team looking into this have stated that as the tournament system is now open to far more players than before (and from what we've found looking at a select few individuals) they need to now expand the 'individual account research' and compare it to the previous assumptions, estimations, and calculated predictions.

Ok, I've rambled on a bit too long here - but I hope that you can follow what we (Helya and I) have been doing with Inno - and know that we are doing our best to shed some light on this all - and more. We only ask that you be patient with us this was never going to be a quick fix.

I will make a commitment to you all to be much more active on these forums and really engage with you to get to the heart of your thoughts and concerns, so I encourage anyone/everyone to point their own feelings (pro/con) of the new tournament system - if they have not done so already.

I'll see what more I can do for you to improve communications over the next few days as well.

tyvm for your response, unfortunalty after months this feels more like containing the fire then an actual honest response.
We are very wel aware that the formula's arent 100% identical. but as Yogi Dave said close enough and in the past even 100% accurate in it's prediction.

For months we have given examples even individual ones, numbers could have been simply added to there own formula and be seen.
The best response we got from an inhouse employee of the elvenar team was:

Uncertainty if Ancient Wonders make the Tournaments significantly more difficult. - From our point of view, they do not. Therefore, it should not be necessary to remove any Ancient Wonder nor to cease upgrading any existing ones further. While they are part of the costs calculations, the increase of costs caused by more or higher-leveled Ancient Wonders pales in comparison with the benefits the Ancient Wonders give. And because of that, the nett result is still a (very) positive one.

From our point of vieuw, thats the same as "my gut said", it shows how much they are willing to ignore math and common sense over reality.
if they were certain they would have said, data shows as a fact that... and not "my gut feeling shows".

While some people just do not like the fact they got less KP (which should have been communicted as one of the desgn goals instead of running around the truth in circles) many have pointed out direct flaws.
These flaws have long term consequences for the game, yes (premium)expansions have a benefit on your city (untill city grows byond a certain strength size) and similar for wonders and even research. btw this issue was already adressed at the introduction of chapter 16, and became only worse.
people like non-mandatory SS, will report this to other players, and can stave the facts by math, just like in the old situation.
How many players did skip non mandatory SS?, this now will happen with wonders and premium(expansions)

I like to point out that for most people the changes are a net benefit, at least on the surfuce, they main people who are victems of these changes are the most active part of the playerbase. the hardcore players. with the biggest (premium) towns.

One of the worst "trough the grapevine" comment I heared, "we should not cater the game completely towards hardcore players even if, they were a mayor source of income"
It seems that this was a similar response from the dev team to the situation, I cannot believe that anyone in the dev team with half a working brain cell did not understand the situation when it was clearly explained and could be verified with a simple calculation internally.

I like to respond to the comment as follows:
"There is a difference between catering towards "hardcore players" and throwing them under a bus.

Since I just cannot believe that no one within the dev team, did not verify any claim made over the past many months, as again even half a brain cell would be enough to verify it.
I unfortunalty can only conclude that your post is nothing more than an attempt to quench the fire (even if it's a genuine attempt)

Unless we see some movement that proves I am wrong, and if that happens I'll be the first and happily be the one to admit I was wrong.
But to be frank I and many have given that one up now.

 

[Nightguest]

One of the worst "trough the grapevine" comment I heared, "we should not cater the game completely towards hardcore players even if, they were a mayor source of income"
It seems that this was a similar response from the dev team to the situation, I cannot believe that anyone in the dev team with half a working brain cell did not understand the situation when it was clearly explained and could be verified with a simple calculation internally.

That is totally incorrect. I'd like to use some other words here however I don't want to break my own rules...

Funnily enough, this was something that came up in our meeting today (Helya and I addressed it) and the response was a round of facepalming with a mixture of bemused horror. No one is sure where or how this rumor started, but it is just that, a rumor and utterly incorrect. For all I know, someone at Innogames may have used slightly bad English to explain something and a player misinterpreted it and spread it like wildfire, but that doesn't make things true.

I strongly urge everyone to only work with facts that they can verify. Going with 'he said that she said that he said' helps no one.

Uncertainty if Ancient Wonders make the Tournaments significantly more difficult. - From our point of view, they do not. Therefore, it should not be necessary to remove any Ancient Wonder nor to cease upgrading any existing ones further. While they are part of the costs calculations, the increase of costs caused by more or higher-leveled Ancient Wonders pales in comparison with the benefits the Ancient Wonders give. And because of that, the nett result is still a (very) positive one.

From our point of vieuw, thats the same as "my gut said", it shows how much they are willing to ignore math and common sense over reality.
if they were certain they would have said, data shows as a fact that... and not "my gut feeling shows".

That sounds like German-English to me.
[Background, I was born in London, UK, however, I moved to Germany when I was 23 and lived there for 5 years]
I have no idea who posted that, so if you could pass me a link I'd love to verify it. However, in my time living and working in the gaming industry in Germany when someone from the team says "from our point of view" they mean that "from what we can see from the formulas that we have coded into the game".

So, if you can send me a link to where that post was made I can then check who wrote that and verify the meaning directly.

I unfortunalty can only conclude that your post is nothing more than an attempt to quench the fire (even if it's a genuine attempt)

It's both?
The alternative would be to let the fire burn but that is not what anyone wants to see.

So yes, I am being genuine here. I do care about the community and the players. I know that I've not been the best at engaging with you as a whole, so skepticism is perfectly valid and I won't do anything but work to prove otherwise through my actions.

However, at the same time, this is an act of quenching a fire as no matter how you look at it, this update has polarised the community and caused a fire. The fire started the moment beta was updated, but until now it was out of my reach and I was unable to effectively throw water on it.

 

[GlamDoll]

However, at the same time, this is an act of quenching a fire as no matter how you look at it, this update has polarised the community and caused a fire. The fire started the moment beta was updated, but until now it was out of my reach and I was unable to effectively throw water on it.

Thank you so much. I hope it gets quenched & that we can get back to playing & enjoying the game.

 

[AtaguS]

It's both?
The alternative would be to let the fire burn but that is not what anyone wants to see.
So yes, I am being genuine here. I do care about the community and the players.

I am grateful for the fire quenching and the genuine concern which shows through all your interactions on this forum. I am not sure how hopeful I am...but it does speak highly of this game (to me) that there is a some sort of forum voice and that is often felt through your willingness to listen. Whether Inno listens in the end is a fate we'll all have to wait to find out, lol. We don't always get what we want around here, but I do tend to walk away from this forum thinking there is still a game worth playing. Anyway, thanks.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Now I need to be entirely clear [something something TL;DR]

I didn't finish reading, but I just wanted to say thank you for promising unequivocally to fix everything and make everyone happy.
For my puppy, I'll take a chocolate lab, please.

 

[Meggi]

You're very welcome, in the end, both Helya and I are here for you (the community) so being appreciated, especially in tougher situations is really welcomed!

Honestly, the part that I'm most glad about right now is that you're being very understanding of the unable to promise yet section. The phrase caught between a rock and a hard place is very true here!


Likewise, thank you, I do hope that ultimately we can both deliver something to the community. But as with all things, time will tell.


I may have not written that part correctly (my mind was getting fuzzy to the end as I wrote/re-wrote/deleted and re-wrote many parts of it). So let me make this clear, I actually appreciate Min's efforts to help the community with their tools. I know that there have been some rough patches but in the end, that Min cares enough about the community to make these in the first place is to be commended.

The issue that I wanted to bring up is that though I want to verify the accuracy of the formula, right now I cannot as there are far too many things that I need to verify for myself. Honestly speaking, it would be epic if it was right (or at least very close to being) as that would make our jobs so much easier, so while I study the intended parts, I am rooting for Min


I urge you to read the entirety of my post and not just get annoyed that I didn't contact you.
In fact, I'd like to point out that I did not state that I had spoken to everyone whose accounts we looked into, so how can you know that we didn't include you in the first place? I spoke to a few people personally (not all) and after that, I was practically picked by the ears and thrown at Meggi, (though I don't mind at all as she was able to explain her position beautifully and it was all easy to follow and very clear).


To be frank, yes, there are people that like the changes, there have been some in this thread that wrote their support for it (unless I've totally misunderstood them or entirely missed the sarcasm) and some that have contacted me privately to tell me that they like it - and yes that does include end-game players as well. However, more importantly, after today's impromptu meeting with the Elvenar leads, we dove into the wants, needs, and gameplay style of Elvenar players as a whole. What we found was that the US community is very much the exception to the norm when looking at how players play the game and how Fellowship leaders run their Fellowships (you lot are better, more accepting, and more helpful towards newer players - this apparently does not exist in many other servers).

Furthermore, there are markets out there that tolerate-and-even-enjoy the changes, and yes this includes end game players as well. I did not believe this at first and asked to see the reports - and well - yeah, it is true.

I am here for the US community - so I am here for you. However, you cannot assume that just because something is disliked here, it means that 'everyone else' dislikes it as well. That is not true even if we looked on just the US servers and it is not true if we look at all the other servers.

As for the rest of your message, I honestly can't make heads or tails out of it.
If you'd like me to address specfic points that you may have, I'm happy to do so, but please do try to write your questions a bit clearer.

Hi Nightguest,
thank you so much for listening and actually looking into it, as I've already said, no one is against the change, but change across the aisle equally, I will sit tight and look into what INNO decides after they have compared everything,I thank both ,You and Helya , for actually listening to us, and more importantly, responding to this thread. This is the first time that I am actually seeing reaction to all of our complaining.So i will sit tight and look into where the World of INNO is leading us. I love this game!!Please don't spoil it for us.
Thanks

 

[Meggi]

I didn't finish reading, but I just wanted to say thank you for promising unequivocally to fix everything and make everyone happy.
For my puppy, I'll take a chocolate lab, please.

Lol Soggy, very funny

 

[Darielle]

That sounds like German-English to me.
[Background, I was born in London, UK, however, I moved to Germany when I was 23 and lived there for 5 years]
I have no idea who posted that, so if you could pass me a link I'd love to verify it. However, in my time living and working in the gaming industry in Germany when someone from the team says "from our point of view" they mean that "from what we can see from the formulas that we have coded into the game".

So, if you can send me a link to where that post was made I can then check who wrote that and verify the meaning directly.

I can attest to the difficulty in translation. When I lived in Germany, I stuck my foot in my mouth more times than I can count when I didn't "quite" say what I meant to say in German. My German inlaws were constantly having to make excuses for their new American family member, lol. I remember once when I said, "My husband always told me I'd hate Germany, but he was just pulling my leg." I translated it word for word, and they didn't have that saying in German, so they looked at me as if I'd just spoken Klingon, lol.

 

[Xelenia]

Now now, let us stay civil

Xelie

 

[StarLoad]

they looked at me as if I'd just spoken Klingon

nIswI' HIq ngoQ

Couldn't resist

 

[Yogi Dave]

… but he was just pulling my leg

LOL Idioms sure don't translate well, but easy to fall into using one.

 

[Swankey Bob]

@Nightguest
Can you say if there has been any conversation about increasing rewards in ratio to the increased cost/difficulty for the tournaments? I suspect that if rewards were simply increased in such a way nobody would take issue with the changes.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

@Nightguest
Can you say if there has been any conversation about increasing rewards in ratio to the increased cost/difficulty for the tournaments? I suspect that if rewards were simply increased in such a way nobody would take issue with the changes.

That was the design goal,

Improve rewards for the little contenders by m,ake it easier for them to do more.
Keep the same rewards for middle contenders
Decrease the rewards for strong contenders (they see 5000+ points as a hardcore tournament player)

 

[Heymrdiedier]

However, at the same time, this is an act of quenching a fire as no matter how you look at it, this update has polarised the community and caused a fire. The fire started the moment beta was updated, but until now it was out of my reach and I was unable to effectively throw water on it.

Thank you for attempting to do this, but for me personally it feels 3 months too late. I think for your attempt, you should be awarded the CM specialist function (if you want it). You know what they say: In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

We can warn you all about a fire thats coming your way, but if you don't listen to those warning signs, and then afterwards admit theres a fire, then its too late already and we are already in the mindset of 'i told you so'.

We can be very harsh when something we love is being destroeyd, but we can and have been very constructive on how to fix the obvious issues as well. there are pages of suggestions you can read in all the feedback threads, I don't know what you now still expect from us to tell you.

few examples:
* scale the rewards (including tournament points) with the difficulty. (would also tackle some pushing issues this game has)
* make sure spending diamonds makes you more competitive and not give you a handicap.
* make sure the tournament remains fun and isnt a endless clicking thing/time sink (and i can definetly confirm you as end player i use a lot more time and clicking)

As it is now, you are forcing hardcore tournament players to either start over again and breach pushingrules (giving goods from big account to new small account), or to stop doing tournament and no longer be competitive (and eventually the game out of boredom)

 

[Deleted User - 1528929]

"As it is now, you are forcing hardcore tournament players to either start over again and breach pushingrules (giving goods from big account to new small account), or to stop doing tournament and no longer be competitive (and eventually the game out of boredom)"

My fellowship has already had a top level (chapter 16 completed, 5K tourney points per week) player quit, stating that the game is just not fun any more. With the changes, the game hass become scrabbling for time instants, supply instants, pet food, everything you need to maximize troop production to allow a person to keep the same or close to the same KP production per tourney as before we end game players were penalized out of the benefits of working hard to build a top performing city.

During this tourney, in the first round, in about province 20, I've lost 75K troops, and 4 of 5 stacks of troops in another fight. This is ludicrous. At this rate I'll be unable to even get 5k points and nowhere near the KP as previously. I feel I've been crapped upon by the devs who don't care a whit about the people who've financially supported this game for years.

Tourney play was my favorite part of the game, that's no longer true. Now, there is no favorite part of the game, knowing everything I do to improve the city will end up harming me in the tourneys.

Thanks, Devs, for souring a long term player on your game, and running off already one who I considered a friend.

 

[Ashrem]

As it is now, you are forcing

Let's be honest, there's no forcing involved. Some of us have accepted that the game changed and moved on with our lives.

 

[LordVorKon]

You know, it seems to me (YMMV, etc) that the players who are screaming the loudest about the new tournament are the ones who were playing mostly to farm KP by the hundreds, and I have to wonder: Maybe that's the point? I fully agree that if that was in fact a design goal (never mind a major design goal) that should've been communicated up front. It wasn't; nobody can do anything about that omission now, although -- again, if -- my speculation is correct, admitting it might go a bit toward alleviating some of the hurt feelings?

 

[Knight of Mystra]

Thanks helya for helping me set up my account. The only problem I have with the changes is that they seems to punish me for progressing in the game. At this point I don't see any reason to continue to spend money on the game. Believe me I have spend an obscene amount in the past couple of years.

At the moment I have about 70 K diamond and when that is finish if there is no improvement in my opinion I will just continue to play it as a free to play game. Hopefully those that benefit can pick up the slack.