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    Your Elvenar Team

Tournament Score Display

Add FS members that have 0 points to FS Tournament score list

  • In Favor

    Votes: 53 77.9%
  • Not in Favor

    Votes: 15 22.1%

  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .

Kekune

Well-Known Member
if you are playing the game and minding you own beeswax and now you are a zero every week, week after week after week for the rest of the time you play .. seems a bit harsh
I'd be really, really surprised to learn that someone who logs 0 points week after week after week until the end of time is even looking at the tournament scores. Seems more likely they wouldn't even see that 0 by their name.

Out of curiosity, would the folks who don't like this proposal be ok with having the names listed if there was no zero but just a blank space where the score would otherwise be?
 

Genefer

Member
There are far more yes votes, and that's unfortunate, because the unmentioned consideration is of how exposing non-contributing tournament players will affect the Fellowship as a whole. It is reality that United States American's do not like when non-contributors reap the benefits of our efforts. There is a high probability that exposing tournament non-contributors will cause hostility and resentment within the FS. The negative feelings will likely result in members leaving the FS and possibly the game itself.

If the FS has a committed AM they will set expectations and eject players who fail to perform. An attentive AM actively removes players that disrupt harmony and do not help foster the growth and enjoyment of all players in the Fellowship. Also, an AM that truly leads a fellowship will have very little strife to deal with at all. In other words the AM are not shy of pushing the eject button.

I can't understand how this exposure of non-contributing members is not motivated to promote drama within the Fellowship.
 

OIM20

Well-Known Member
It is reality that United States American's do not like when non-contributors reap the benefits of our efforts. There is a high probability that exposing tournament non-contributors will cause hostility and resentment within the FS.
But non-contributors don't reap any of the benefits. You have to play at least one star during the tournament to get any of the rewards.

I actually think that may be why the names aren't included with a zero score now, since you've mentioned it: to keep anyone from being confused as to who got rewards. If 'player A' hasn't been showing on that list and they suddenly do, I expect there will be questions as to whether they got rewards. And probably both from other members of the FS and from 'A' themselves (when they didn't get them).

As to the number of votes, well, it's simply a matter of exposing the thread to more people. If your FS members also feel like this is something that would disrupt the game rather than contribute to it, they can create forum accounts and cast a vote. They don't have to post in the thread. And I don't think @helya turned on the feature that shows who voted how (someone asked for it in a thread and I think I remember her saying it already existed?), so they don't have to worry about anyone knowing how they cast their ballot.

The chat box doesn't allow click-throughs just yet, but the update 1.138 thread says that messages should allow it, so you can send a message on mobile to your FS with the thread link. (I tested the chat box; I have not tested the messages as yet.)

Edited to add: They can cast in favor of the measure as well. I didn't mean to make that sound like they could only vote if they didn't like it.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
There are far more yes votes, and that's unfortunate, because the unmentioned consideration is of how exposing non-contributing tournament players will affect the Fellowship as a whole. It is reality that United States American's do not like when non-contributors reap the benefits of our efforts. There is a high probability that exposing tournament non-contributors will cause hostility and resentment within the FS. The negative feelings will likely result in members leaving the FS and possibly the game itself.
Genefer, Can you explain to me how members with zero tournament score stay hidden if this proposal was never introduced?
Would I be wrong if I deduced that currently if a members is not listed with a score, then the score is zero?
If this proposal were implemented, and when looking at the report, you would only see the first 5 people with highest score. If you were in a fs where participation is required, then some would look further. I assure you that is done now mostly by manually comparing the roaster against the tournament scores. Nothing is hidden.

For you to state that "There are far more yes votes, and that is unfortunate" is very disturbing to me.
I get it, you are against this proposal. That is fine, and I respect that you have an opinion. You justified your vote because you believe it would cause hostility within the fellowship and people would leave the fellowship. I don't know how you can know that, but you blow me away by then arguing that it would be better to have an attentive AM expel the member with zero scores if participation were required.

Genefer, I believe if the proposal were implemented, more members would participate in tournaments, and the AM's job would be easier.
I respect that you expressed your opinion and voted "NO"
I hope you no longer feel it is unfortunate that I expressed my opinion and that more people voted "YES"
 
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hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
changes can always be made till they start the actual code but not really a thing for now ) if this hits beta you guys can add an opt out box then, but i get that this vote specific is straight line yes or no on getting zeros handed out lol


as an add on @Kekune i asked a couple of people about just listing name without a zero (nothing sciency or large scale) but that seems fine by them vs a zero .. if it hits beta for tweeks, it seems that may be a time saver for support with complaint tickets live
 
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able99

Well-Known Member
as an add on @Kekune i asked a couple of people about just listing name without a zero (nothing sciency or large scale) but that seems fine by them vs a zero ..

I am not sure how listing every name with either a score or blank, vs every name with a score or 0 is any different. It is just a different format for representing the zero score. You are just splitting hairs, but if that would make you happy I have no problem with it. so long as the name is listed.
 

Genefer

Member
Would I be wrong if I deduced that currently if a members is not listed with a score, then the score is zero?
No, you're not wrong, if a member does not contribute they are not listed. If I read the purposed feature correctly, than the player will be exposed for every member to see the 0 right next to their name on the tournament score sheet.

If this proposal were implemented, and when looking at the report, you would only see the first 5 people with highest score. If you were in a fs where participation is required, then some would look further. I assure you that is done now mostly by manually comparing the roaster against the tournament scores. Nothing is hidden.

You assume players do not look beyond the first 5 scores, how do you know this? I said I believe, while you are asserting this as truth, but the fact is you do not know if this is true. I look through all scores, but not to see who hasn't participated, but to determine if for some reason we might come up short in achieving all 10 chests - to know if I need to contribute more points. Some players might not be able to play as often in a given week, they might be short on resources due to building, or we might not at the time have a full Fellowship.... It is important to know how we are progressing to avoid failing to meet the Fellowship's goals

I do not track the participants, because it is the job of the AM - not mine.

but you blow me away by then arguing that it would be better to have an attentive AM expel the member with zero scores if participation were required.

Why does it "blow you away" that I feel that an AM who requires participation in the tournament should enforce this requirement? Do you think members who join a Fellowship knowing they will be required to contribute a minimum number of points are going to be happy if the AM retains a member whose consistent lack of participation in the tournament results in a continuous failure to achieve the 10th chest? If a player doesn't want to participate they should join a FS that does not require its members to participate. So, yes I think an attentive AM should be diligent in ejecting members that do not meet expectations to ensure a healthy happy Fellowship. Some people, such as yourself, will think my opinion and expectation of my AM is harsh, never-the-less that's how I both feel and what I expect.

But non-contributors don't reap any of the benefits. You have to play at least one star during the tournament to get any of the rewards.

What I would like to know is why there is a need to expose the non-participant if it does not matter? If the purpose is not to encourage participation, remind the player of their obligation that they knowingly agreed to when they joined the Fellowship, or eject the player when they fail to meet the expectation, than why is this feature necessary at all?

But non-contributors don't reap any of the benefits. You have to play at least one star during the tournament to get any of the rewards.

I concede :)
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
I am not sure how listing every name with either a score or blank, vs every name with a score or 0 is any different. It is just a different format for representing the zero score. You are just splitting hairs, but if that would make you happy I have no problem with it. so long as the name is listed.
I used to know a guy who got PISSED (in all caps, lol) if you edited or commented on his work with a red pen. He said it made him feel like a child failing a school lesson. If you did the exact same edit using a blue pen, or purple, or whatever, he was totally fine with it.

People have emotional reactions that aren't grounded in logic. Seems like some folks have an emotional reaction to being labeled with a 0.
I feel that an AM who requires participation in the tournament should enforce this requirement
I'm an active, attentive AM in a group that has (a lot of) tournament expectations. If you want active, attentive AMs who enforce rules, it really helps to give them the tools they need to keep an eye on things. Just this morning, I spent a few minutes scrolling up and down on my little mobile display that shows only 3 names at a time, trying to figure out which of our 25 players hadn't started tourney yet. I finally did, but it would have been really nice to just scroll to the bottom and see it.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
I do not track the participants, because it is the job of the AM - not mine.
I think this is what @able99 is pointing to. You want both worlds, to not shame players and also have AM enforce things, but that same AM has to waste 10 mins of his/her life figuring out who didn't contribute yet because he has to flip between the roster and the tourney score to process things manually as things currently stand. It's not your job so you haven't had to do it and possibly don't know how tedious it is to cross-match 25 people on a weekly basis.

Look at that, common ground in this thread you guys! :D
 

Genefer

Member
It's not your job so you haven't had to do it and possibly don't know how tedious it is to cross-match 25 people on a weekly basis.

That's true I haven't. Perhaps sending a report to the AM exclusively is more productive and helpful. It would prevent the AM from having to keep track of the zeros from week to week, not embarrass anyone, and avoid unhappy members.
 

able99

Well-Known Member
The intent of the proposal is not to disclose any privileged information or embarrass anyone. Its simply a tool to make it easier to view the information that is already there. I Believe it will also have the effect of encouraging more people to play in the tournament.
 

DeletedUser29768

Guest
You want both worlds, to not shame players and also have AM enforce things, but that same AM has to waste 10 mins of his/her life figuring out who didn't contribute yet because he has to flip between the roster and the tourney score to process things manually as things currently stand. It's not your job so you haven't had to do it and possibly don't know how tedious it is to cross-match 25 people on a weekly basis.
Hmm, now this makes me wonder if it would be better to only display the zero scores to the AM. Would that make everyone happy?

(And yes, I know that's not what we're voting on.)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Hmm, now this makes me wonder if it would be better to only display the zero scores to the AM. Would that make everyone happy?
The whole "players might feel bad" is a total red herring.
I mean think about it:
Are players with a zero score even checking the tournament tab? Why? What kinda weirdo keeps checking the scoreboard while not helping? So if they don't see the zero, how does it hurt their feelings? How is it better that they are currently not even listed? Totally ignored by the Tournament page!

But yeah, to soothe the make-believe feelings of the non-existent victims, hide the zero from anyone below mage rank :rolleyes:
 

DeletedUser29768

Guest
Are players with a zero score even checking the tournament tab? Why? What kinda weirdo keeps checking the scoreboard while not helping? So if they don't see the zero, how does it hurt their feelings? How is it better that they are currently not even listed? Totally ignored by the Tournament page!
Yeah, I really don't understand what the big deal is with a zero in the first place, especially for non-tourney participators. However, clearly some people are uncomfortable with the idea, so it may be worth modifying the idea to something everyone (or at least more people) can agree on.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
As a FS member, I can already see who is and is not participating. The only thing this suggestion would change is how many seconds/minutes it would take me to narrow it down.

Are there a lot of people that get zero points in tourney that would feel bad about getting zero points if they knew I could see, instantly, that they got zero points?
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Are there a lot of people that get zero points in tourney that would feel bad about getting zero points of they knew I could see, instantly, that they got zero points?
I very much doubt it. Far more likely is that the dozen "no" votes have come from the same fellowship.

It's much the same as when I proposed that they display the AW reward chests before any KP has been donated. A fair bit of "Oh no the snipers will get it!" and some "Just look it up on elvengems" and such. Since implemented though, zero issues and no complaints. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
I guess my old brain just works way different than some folks.
No one has the ability to embarrass me or shame me, not even irl! The only thing that can embarrass me is my own behavior - so I'm in control and can change said behavior if I find it embarrassing or shameful. I have no control over what anyone else does or says, so no, I don't find it shaming or embarrassing.
As far as the game and this issue goes? You can put a zero next to my name; for all I care you can put an icon of a turd next to my name...
Means nothing to me. Unless I failed to notify my FS of a planned absence (and that would be my own behavior I was embarrassed of, not the turd next to my name, for crying out loud) said turd would just make it easier on my AM to immediately know 'something's up with Sami...' if I didn't show points in the Spire or tourney.
Since I believe any FS requirements that are not tracked are merely suggestions posing as a requirement, I know how much AM's have to keep track of as well as the lack of management tools provided by the game for this purpose. Anything that makes that a bit less time consuming for them, I'm all for!
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
It would be good to hear from people that contribute zero points.

Do you feel shame for contributing zero points? :D *in my best Cap'n Barbossa accent.
 
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