Tournament/Spire Formula SUCKS!!

[Gladiola]

Thanks @Iyapo. I notice that relic boost also comes into play, which is not something people talk about a lot. This is significant for people who have played heavily in the tournament since early in their cities as well as those who craft relics in their MA. (Such as me.)

 

[crackie]

Relic boost is tapped out at 700 already for most people so it is less of a factor in the changing dynamics.

 

[Gladiola]

@crackie That depends on whether the relic boost from AWs is considered. Does upgrading MH and similar AWs have a dual effect because it both adds an AW level and increases the relic boost?

 

[Iyapo1]

@Gladiola The MH does not count. As @crackie said, it tops out at 700% for pretty much everyone pretty early somewhere between chapter 4 and...(depends on tournament play). I usually forget about this one entirely.

 

[The Unbeliever]

I spend troops in the tourney and negotiate Spire through Lv2. Lv3 is just a waste of resources...
Fighting is pants, since 1 bad RNG roll for terrain = auto-wipe out, and in the Spire especially, that's just too costly on the troops.
I always just punch auto-fight, since the battle engine in this game is beyond god-awful... not wasting hours at a time for a handful of fights.

Also doesn't help matters when I go 3 fething weeks without seeing a single troop boosting building in crafting. >.<


Honestly I wish they'd just remove the expansions from the equation... I can't think of any other game where growing/expanding actually makes the game harder to play!?
It's the JRPG equivalent of leveling your characters to Lv45, and then from Lv46 and on, you instead lose stats with each subsequent level vs. gaining stats. (...while the rando enemies also continue to gain stats just to make things even more infuriating!)

 

[Lelanya]

Why would you cater the high halls and then fight the lab? Most people fight the easier fights and then cater the harder ones. I'm not picking on you; I just really want to know your reasoning. It's interesting.

I have friends that do this. 2x pet food Tuesday through Wednesday, Friday through Saturday.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I can't think of any other game where growing/expanding actually makes the game harder to play!?

A lot of games use scaling, where the difficulty of the game/enemies grows with your level. For a video game that would mean an area that has level 1 enemies to fight when you were level 1 would increase as you increase. So if you go back to the same area at level 50, the enemies would now be level 50 too, rather than remaining at level 1.

And if that is what Inno meant to do, then yeah, they got it a bit off with how much the enemy grows compared to us. Done properly, it is a challenge to play, which this is when you have the extra buildings and stuff that is needed. But without those, it is definitely too hard. The problem, as others have said, is that Inno has to make it a challenge for all the players who do have the Phoenix and a bunch of the temp buildings and who power-leveled their military AWs, but that in turn makes it too hard for the players who do not have all that every week.

 

[Darielle]

I have friends that do this. 2x pet food Tuesday through Wednesday, Friday through Saturday.

Ah, I didn't even think of the timing! Makes sense now.

 

[Prickly Pete]

The formula may suck but then the higher levels of the spire are there to give higher level people something to do.

 

[Deborah M]

I just look at it this way. When I was playing PlayStation or PC games I would get to a point in those games where I had to get my son to win the battles that were too hard for me. When I thought about it in that context I figured this isn't all that different except that I have a way to avoid battles by catering/negotiating. Lucky for me since he has his own home now

 

[Gladiola]

@Prickly Pete The higher levels of spire are about the same difficulty for lower level and higher level people, from what I've seen, although the higher level people would contend it is actually harder for them and getting harder as they progress. I have some healthy skepticism about that, but I am in chapter 3 so I don't know from experience.

 

[Darielle]

The way I see it, Lab and Gateway are basically inverses of each other. It’s more efficient to fight the Lab bc catering becomes more crap shoot than skill. However, it’s “cheaper” to cater Gateway than fight it because the second half of Gateway already requests large stacks to fight. Given how easy all of Gateway is to solve catering encounters, it’s not worth the troop loss even if you can win fighting it. Same with High Halls. I can solve the catering more or less on the first try still. That saves a lot of dead soldiers.

From what I understand, the “difficulty”, as in the ratio of your troops to enemy troops, is the same for everyone at the same point in tourney and Spire. The only difference is the stack size used. Example: the ratio of your troops to enemy troops at the Frog (boss of High Halls) might be 1.5x. A chapter 3 city’s encounter might be 100 troops vs 150 enemies. A chapter 10’s Frog encounter might be 2000 troops vs 3000 enemies. The ratio is 2:3 for both, which means it’s not actually more difficult for the Chap 10 player. However, the Chap 10 city is going to feel it more when its stack of 2000 takes damage because it means more dead troops to replace. Most of us aren’t upgrading armories/barracks/wonders that frequently so the troop production rate is constant-ish. You need to be able to replenish those dead soldiers in time for next Spire or tourney. Therefore, a big part of being able to go deep in either is troop loss mitigation or conservation—knowing where you can save troops and minimize losses. So it’s not a matter of difficulty fighting or even winning, but troop conservation math. It’s a big deal bc it’s why a lot of top players left. The troop loss becomes insurmountable bc the ways to overcome it falls shorter than the increase from teching.

I like your rationale; it makes sense to me even though I do the opposite. I'll fight the easy fights and cater the top. I always cater the lab unless I have a ton of 5-day buildings out for a special push week. And while I will spend 25 diamonds on the big boss for a guaranteed win, I don't spend more than that. I think the worst I've ever done was have to withdraw after the first guess 7 times, and that's frustrating. But in the end, I get there.

When I get the second star on the frogs, I may try your way. But for now catering works for me because I have more factories than most people, I think. (6 t1 6 t2 4t3).

 

[Darielle]

I just look at it this way. When I was playing PlayStation or PC games I would get to a point in those games where I had to get my son to win the battles that were too hard for me. When I thought about it in that context I figured this isn't all that different except that I have a way to avoid battles by catering/negotiating. Lucky for me since he has his own home now

Oh gosh, you've brought back memories. When we had the old C-64, I would play Legacy of the Ancients. Loved that game, except for the "training" sessions in the armory or weapon training. Every time I wanted to buff my guy with extra training, I would call one of my boys to come and do the fight for me. They had lightning reflexes, and they could get me up to at least level seven when on my own, I could only do a four. Oh boy, the good old days, lol.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

A lot of games use scaling, where the difficulty of the game/enemies grows with your level. For a video game that would mean an area that has level 1 enemies to fight when you were level 1 would increase as you increase. So if you go back to the same area at level 50, the enemies would now be level 50 too, rather than remaining at level 1.

And if that is what Inno meant to do, then yeah, they got it a bit off with how much the enemy grows compared to us. Done properly, it is a challenge to play, which this is when you have the extra buildings and stuff that is needed. But without those, it is definitely too hard. The problem, as others have said, is that Inno has to make it a challenge for all the players who do have the Phoenix and a bunch of the temp buildings and who power-leveled their military AWs, but that in turn makes it too hard for the players who do not have all that every week.

This is exactly right! I think these encounters ought to be winnable without boosters. And by winnable I don't mean easy or a given but, with strategy, you can get through a battle. People are talking about the spire squad size but I also take exception at the fact that my enemy is often higher ranked than any of the troops available to me. How fair is it to face a 3 star enemy when that tech isn't even available to me?

Boosters should only ever offer reduced losses so they act as a perk but for me they're an essential. I could not fight my way up the spire without a full set of temp buildings, min Level 10 NoT & MM, and a fully evolved & fed fire chook. With the exception of AWs, all other battle boosters have no guaranteed availability which means I'd have to cater instead of fighting. My city is not built for catering as I only have 4 T1, 2 T2 &1 T3 and I've heard it said many times before that you can have a fighting city or a catering city but not both.

 

[Iyapo1]

Also doesn't help matters when I go 3 fething weeks without seeing a single troop boosting building in crafting. >.<

Oh yeah, that makes everything harder. I hope RNG hell lets you out soon.

I've heard it said many times before that you can have a fighting city or a catering city but not both.

I actually think this is totally false. I think most players run a hybrid.

 

[Kekune]

I've heard it said many times before that you can have a fighting city or a catering city but not both.

Really? This is new to me. I've heard a lot of people discourage a full catering build (at least for efficiency's sake) but haven't really heard people discouraging a blend. I would actually have said blended is ideal, especially in the new tourney system. My blend leans more heavily towards fighting, especially in tourneys, but I've always liked catering in the spire. Sometimes I've fully catered there, sometimes I've fought a lot, but I've never* done the spire without catering.

*Well... maybe this one time when I had a billion buffs placed and my troops were basically demigods.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

....but I've never* done the spire without catering.

*Well... maybe this one time when I had a billion buffs placed and my troops were basically demigods.

It can be done, and without a ton of boosts. I fully fight the Spire every week in my chapter 17 city. No military AW is over level 16, most are only level 11. A fed level 10 Fire Phoenix, and one each of the temp boost buildings, or two of the HP ones, if I am out of Dwarven Armorers. And I fight every tournament encounter each week, except for the rare, very weird mix of enemy troops, which I will cater. And I do that for 5k points. And all these are won using auto-fight. Over the past several months, I have come to realize that my city must be in the sweet spot for this. I am not so underpowered that fighting is hard. And I am not so overpowered that the squad size grows more quickly that I can keep[ up with.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

I actually think this is totally false. I think most players run a hybrid.

You and @Kekune need to just let me be right for once. It gets super demoralising being wrong all the time y'know.

Can it be done? I really don't know. I fight the entire spire every week and the first 10 provinces of the tourney. If I'm doing a push week I'll cater 10-20 but I can only do that once every 6 weeks or so. I would dearly love to not have to set 3x3hr plus 1 x 9hr productions every day and just do 2 x 9hr but I don't think that's sustainable.

@Kekune I hate hate hate catering the spire! I resent it so much. I do it when the fights are practically suicidal but I am a scowling potty-mouthed elf the whole time!

There was one time when I accidentally put down two sets of booster buildings and once I got over kicking myself in the butt for my stupidity I had fun on the spire throwing my most useless troops at the enemy and laughing when they won.

 

[Kekune]

It can be done, and without a ton of boosts.

I didn't mean to imply that it couldn't be done. I've auto-fought most of it on a set (1 each UUU, ELR, and MMM) of buff buildings plus a fire phoenix. But I don't really want to fight it all, so I don't. I was just pointing out that a hybrid approach can be successful.

 

[Kekune]

And I do that for 5k points.

And fwiw, I'm doing 50% more tourney points than you in a given week, which we know is way more than 50% added costs in this system. So while a pure- fighting build is working for you, I think I'd run out of troops.