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Trading Mindsets (or, Tips to Alleviate Frustration and Achieve Success in the Trader)

Nerwa

Well-Known Member
N.B.: This is a work-in-process and will be edited & added to as time allows.

Dear Player,

It is my observation that at any given point someone is expressing their frustration to the Forum with regards to the Trader. "Unfair!" some bemoan. "Unbalanced!" is the complaint from others. "Something Must Be Done!!" is the chorus.

Never fear - something CAN be done! Whether or not it IS done - is up to each individual player. The secret lies in one's mindset when approaching the Trader: Are you entering as a Shopper, a Petitioner, a Helper, or a Seller?

  • With a Shopper's Mind, one enters the Trader hoping to find needed goods, ideally as 2- or 3-star trades. Many (not all) Shoppers additionally hope for same-tier trades or other restrictions (e.g., size of the trade). A Seller rarely posts trades, or only does so without taking into account trends within their local market.
  • The Petitioner's Mind is common among early players with few resources. They may ask for help from more advanced players (neighbors and/or FS team-mates) or post frequent small-quantity trades. A player advancing through the research tree should outgrow the Petitioner's Mind quickly, except for rare occasions (e.g., an especially difficult Spire). In those unfortunate circumstances where a player does not outgrow Petitioning, they may be viewed as a chronic Beggar, always asking others to fulfill needs and playing from a state of constant scarcity.
  • Entering with the intent to fulfill trades from one's FS and/or small neighbors, with limited regard to one's own needs, is the hallmark of a Helper's Mind. A Helper might enter spontaneously or by arrangement. An example of the latter is an out-of-pocket player asking a fellow FS member for a 0- or 1-star stock-ups during Spire. Mutually beneficial exchanges of boosted goods can also be Helpful.
  • A player with a Seller's Mind approaches the Trader with plans to post trades, which may range from charitable and affordable 3-star trades to profitable 1-star trades. (0-star trades are rarely effective for Selling; those should most be viewed as Petitions.)

Most players will use each mindset at various times, frequently in combination. However, it is my experience that Maximally Effective players will primarily operate as Sellers and/or Helpers. These two mindsets enable a player to both adapt to and exert influence on their local market. For example, if the local market is not ideal for their existing circumstances, a Shopper or Helper may add or subtract factories to reflect current trends.

In contrast, Shoppers and Petitioners are dependent not only upon *what* others are posting but also upon: When posts listed; the quantity of goods; which goods are requested in trade; and how active other shoppers. If the current market does not provide needed goods, Shoppers and Petitioners are left frustrated.

Added 28 June: At this point, I shall focus primarily on Selling, as I find it to be the most beneficial and interesting of the mindsets.

As a Seller, my typical Trading session goes as follows:
  1. Beginning on the 3rd tab ("Your Offers"), I hope to find that list empty. Trades lingering more than 12 hours or so, is a signal that I have failed to meet market demand and are normally deleted. (There are exceptions, such as especially large Offers.)
  2. Next I move to the 2nd tab ("Place Offers") to study my on-hand quantities and decide what trades I am interested in placing. Before entering the trades, I move on to the 1st tab - the Marketplace.
  3. In the Marketplace I scan available Offers. To be clear - this is not a Shopping trip as such; it is an evaluation. (E.g., Are there certain goods which are Offered widely, such as Gems? Are the offers large or small? Same-tier or cross-tier? How long have those trades been posted?) If an existing Offer counters my needs, I accept that Offer. Perhaps I will Help an FS team-mate or a small neighbor in passing. Otherwise it is time to reverse course.
  4. Once back in the 2nd tab I place my planned Offers (adjusting as needed based on the Marketplace visit) and review the 3rd tab for errors. All told, my Trading session is usually complete within 2-3 minutes.
Of course, Selling does not begin nor end in the Trader; one's own Manufactories are the heart of the Selling process. The Marketplace evaluation is essential in determining production priorities as well as which Manufactories are worthwhile at any given point. A Maximally Effective Seller should be prepared to adapt to the Marketplace; therein lies Great Success and Satisfaction.


Forthcoming: Maxims to Maximize Effectiveness; edits for clarity & cleverness
 
Last edited:

Traser

Member
Very interesting reading. I am presently in a situation where my FS is loaded with goods I do not need which makes trading very hard. I am wondering what to do next. Should I move to another FS or stay and wait for things to change.
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Again, the more important question is what happens when you list your own trades versus window shopping? As long as people are taking your trades either within FS or the neighbors, the unbalance is less of an issue. I take unboosted trades all the time from my FS members because I have a large enough inventory that it won’t change my stacks much, esp for the smaller cities below me. For the FS where I am AM, we are very short on silk and gem players but it hasn’t been a problem when I asked if people are having a hard time getting those goods. I also stockpile extra in those categories just in case bc I am the AM.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
N.B.: This is a work-in-process and will be edited & added to as time allows.

Dear Player,

It is my observation that at any given point someone is expressing their frustration to the Forum with regards to the Trader. "Unfair!" some bemoan. "Unbalanced!" is the complaint from others. "Something. Must. Be. Done!!" is the chorus.

Never fear - some CAN be done! Whether or not it IS done - is up to each individual player. The secret lies in one's mindset when approaching the Trader: Are you entering as a Shopper, a Petitioner, a Helper, or a Seller?

  • With a Shopper's Mind, one enters the Trader hoping to find needed goods, ideally as 2- or 3-star trades. Many (not all) Shoppers additionally hope for same-tier trades or other restrictions (e.g., size of the trade). A Seller rarely posts trades, or only does so without taking into account trends within their local market.
  • The Petitioner's Mind is common among early players with few resources. They may ask for help from more advanced players (Neighbors and/or FS team-mates) or simply post their needs online in frequent small-quantity trades. As a player advance through the research tree they should outgrow the Petitioner's Mind quickly, except for rare occasions (e.g., following an especially difficult Spire). In those unfortunate circumstances when a player does not outgrow Petitioning, they may be viewed as a chronic Beggar, always asking others to fulfill needs and playing from a state of constant scarcity.
  • Entering with the intent to fulfill trades from one's FS and/or small neighbors, with limited regard to one's own needs, is the hallmark of a Helper's Mind. A Helper might enter spontaneously or by arrangement. An example of the latter is an out-of-pocket player asking a fellow FS member for a 0- or 1-star stock-ups during Spire. Mutually beneficial exchanges of boosted goods can also be Helpful.
  • A player with a Seller's Mind approaches the Trader with plans to post trades, which may range from charitable and affordable 3-star trades to profitable 1-star trades. (0-star trades are rarely effective for Selling; those should most be viewed as Petitions.)

Most players will use each mindset at various times, frequently in combination. However, it is my experience that Maximally Effective players will primarily operate as Sellers and/or Helpers. These two mindsets enable a player to both adapt to and exert influence on their local market. For example, if the local market is not ideal for their existing circumstances, a Shopper or Helper may add or subtract factories to reflect current trends.

In contrast, Shoppers and Petitioners are dependent not only upon *what* others are posting but also upon: When posts listed; the quantity of goods; which goods are requested in trade; and how active other shoppers. If the current market does not provide needed goods, Shoppers and Petitioners are left frustrated.

Forthcoming: additional observations; Maxims to Maximize Effectiveness; edits for clarity & cleverness

Great post, and pretty accurate, in my mind. If there is a problem it's that the goals of each type are just different so they use the trader differently, as you point out. And any time you have people using something differently than others, some of the others will be horrified, upset, etc. Sometimes because they just don't think the thing ought to be used in the manner it is being used, sometimes because the way it's used seems so unrealistic, strange etc, that they have a hard time envisioning it being used "that way." But, ultimately, they don't like it because it causes dissonance in them, and dissonance is the chief way we tell that we need to focus on something...usually because it may be a threat to our own well being.

The first response to dissonance of any kind is to recognize it respond to it in some manner. Usually we take the first thing that pops up as an explanation and then respond to remove the dissonance. For instance, I sneeze. My first reaction isn't to rush out to the emergency room, but to note and, probably ignore it because my experience tells me sneezing is generally just something I've breathed in and reacted to. A one off sort of thing. But if I sneeze again, what do I do? I throw out my first "solution" and perhaps put a little more effort/thought into it. I look around, perhaps, for some source of an irritant in the air. I am mildly allergic to pollen so I would look around and see if somebody put flowers in the room. If discovered I'd probably move away from them or move them to another room if I could. Again, simplest, quickest and least involved solution. And after that? If I sneezed again? More escalation. Maybe an allergy pill taken. Or a "pre-cold" treatment as I might wonder if I'm "coming down with something." The point is, we generally pick the quickest and easiest remedy and sometimes that means our analysis is seldom of much thought.

So when we see trades that cause us dissonance we usually go right to "blaming" the other guy -- the one who is using the trader differently than we use it -- in a way that disturbs our equilibrium -- and the simplest solution is for us to get that guy to change his behaviors. The more difficult thing is to change our attitudes. In the manner of life in general we usually try to adjust our environment to ourselves instead of ourselves to our environment. So because our view/perspective had been successful for a long, long time and others encourage it/reinforce it, etc, we usually want the other person to change his/her ways.

So, your comments are very helpful in lowering the condemnation that sometimes occurs when somebody uses the trader in a manner that makes us uncomfortable. Here's a good example of how one might apply the ideas you present.

Personally I'm very much a Helper and even wonder if that's not a problem itself. You see, in my area of the world I consistently finding trades listing gems for scrolls. I usually take them at 2 stars because I want to help out the little guy, and assume the trader is smaller (I've checked, and this has held in almost all cases). Because of this I have 16+ million gems at this time compared to about 2-3 million of everything else. Since scrolls are in short supply, to keep enough scrolls on hand to be the "helper" I have to deeply discount my gems -- selling gems for scrolls too -- and that means I lose "on paper" about 30% value of gems (this is not quite accurate as I will explain in a bit). But it also encourages others to ignore the actual relative "on paper" supply/demand value of both gems and scrolls. In other words, since the 2 star trades between gems and scrolls do not reflect the supply/demand "on paper" value and taking trades at that level encourages players to assume the 2 star value is equitable or balanced. In the long run only helps the imbalance continue with "helpers" usually absorbing the costs.

Finally, I take the 2-star gems for scrolls trades. I do so because the value to me of the trade includes the actual enjoyment I get from being a helper. The trade, therefore, in my mind is "fair" because I consider the intangibles part of the "deal." At some point, probably when I have 20 million gems, if I'm still picking up 2-star gems for scrolls trades, I'll change my mind and the 2-star gems for scrolls trades will be left in the trader. And once every "helper" does that, players posting those kinds of trades will slowly raise the trades to 3-star trades or somehow switch their production to something besides gems.

I do hope this helps people to understand the dynamics at work in the trader more. Your post certainly helps a lot. Thanks for it.

AJ
 

Nerwa

Well-Known Member
If there is a problem it's that the goals of each type are just different so they use the trader differently, as you point out. And any time you have people using something differently than others, some of the others will be horrified, upset, etc.
Yup. Plus, there's the bubble-effect of different trading standards within different Fellowships. A player based in a 2- and 3-star-only FS is likely to view a mild 1-star trade as hugely predatory. Someone from a same-tier-only FS might be appalled at cross-tiers offers. And a player accustomed to open trading can get deeply frustrated and defensive about unnecessary/arbitrary restrictions.
 
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