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    Your Elvenar Team

Unfair Trades

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hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
if you average the laws of convergence with the tao of trades it might go something like this .. if someone abuses the system then ignore the trades i try not to associate with stinkoes like that either .. if a member hits a bump/hump and the team wants to help them over with a set of 0 star trades because ya know we like each other and want to help / that's groovy too .. if you have a real world live in and want to just shower them with ungodly unbalanced trades nonstop .. oh yeah do it and do it good
 

BrinDarby

Active Member
I cringe when I see this thread, so let me take a different perspective and ask the following......

From a Fellowship perspective, why is it OK to dictate morality or ethics to a player,
when said actions have 0 to do with the Fellowship ??
Isn't that simmilar to fire'n someone from thier Job, because of actions by the employee
while they are NOT at work... ? ( I said simmilar, not good/bad .... yet )

Is it some worry that your FS will get a bad rep for the actions of just a few people ??
Is it an actual feeling of immorality or unethical behaviour ??

I certainly agree the world is de-evolving and that "facts" must be constant in order
for language to work...... to some ppl a bad trade is 1 that doesn't sell .... to game itself
a bad trade is anything higher than 6:1, while the game trades at 5:1...... to others,
a bad trade is anything worse than to me a swap... which is usually 1:1.
Untill we agree on the deffinition, discourse is sketchy @ best....

Now that I understand, thks to a few ppl, everyone is ltd to what is it 324 possible
trading partners, 24 of those are FS members.... I see the system itself making matters
worse, but here's a unique perspective .....

The older a player gets, the more everything has more 0s after it... and there is a hard cap.
Isn't it CH16 is the last, but lets say it is ..... This player is on the top of the food chain,
they have played for a long time and paid thier dues.... plus there's noone above them
to feed them trades.... So they have an inherant incentive, to encourage an overall mindset
where 1:1 trading is the norm..... it benefits them... and lets be honest here 1:1 is NOT a trade,
It is a SWAP..... trade, the word, has a built in inferrance to being anything but 1:1.

I think I understand what a push acct is, someone who just gives away stuff for no reason...
Yet there is a case to be made, where new players are "groomed" in ch1/2 so that when they
get to 3 and the spire opens, then they are a viable candidate for a FS..... plus some ppl
just like to have fun, and they will fund just about any trade , and I have no clue why either...lolol.

I whole heartedly agree, within a FS you swap goods, you don't trade them... if it were up to me
each FS would have a Bank, but in essence 1 person can act as a bank anyway.... if they are
trustworthy...lololol..... Because of the astronomical costs in certain ways, we all should be able
to ride the supply/demand waves and earn........ yes earn profit.... we prolly will debate, how much
profit is acceptable, and I think we are now, but thats still profit......

Why have a trade system.... lets make it a swap system... all swaps forced to 1:1.....
I'll tell you why not ....
1) a whole game feature is centered around "trade" not swaps...
2) Anyone who spends the time/trouble of acting as a "shop" and seemingly
always having what you need, up when you need it, and in an amt that you can take.
I say that person earned the right to make a profit.....
3) Because the Wholesaler has a fixed cost, that really is a benchmark for what
a "bad/unfair" trade is..... everything else is a degree of expensive-ness....
4) for thousands of years, ppl traded to get ahead, thats why you haggle......
5) Last but not least, if the system was opened up, the volume of traders would
solve this problem all by itself... IF 20 ppl are selling what you are, @ a better price
.... I'm pretty sure if you want customers you will have to bring your price down...

There are some great ideas I've seen on the forum for a better trade system,
I'm all for that.... but it really does benefit older players if the perception is....
we all should play nice and swap goods.... Lets also be real, the higher you get
I'm guessing, the more your city is set up to work 1 way... efficiency is paramount
just as space is... you get to a happy medium where you make what you need, but
not proilly, craploads more.... The laws of diminishing return are nipp'n @ ur heels..

just as there are great Fighters, there are equally great econ players.....
I'm surprised I'm not see'n any specialized accts, that only make 1 thing, yet
sell alot to others to meet thier needs... ( other than the endless scrolls debate )

Yes yes yes yes, ohhh gawd yes.... within the FS swap goods, mutually beneficial, duhhh...
I just don't see whats wrong with trade, outside a FS... and I certainly don't like to
tell others how to play thier game, when Im/the FS is not effected....

To me.... a bad trade is 1 that never sells ..... the degree of expensive is secondary..
BrinD
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Trade in a system where you are forced to trade is different from trade in a system where trade is voluntary. It's not economically viable to avoid trade in Elvenar. While there is a theoretical upper limit on trading partners, there is no minimum level. If you are in a quiet area, and the only trading partner of note knows it and only offers expensive trades, you can't just not trade, or move to another neighbourhood.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Why have a trade system.... lets make it a swap system... all swaps forced to 1:1.....
I'll tell you why not ....
1) a whole game feature is centered around "trade" not swaps...
2) Anyone who spends the time/trouble of acting as a "shop" and seemingly
always having what you need, up when you need it, and in an amt that you can take.
I say that person earned the right to make a profit.....
3) Because the Wholesaler has a fixed cost, that really is a benchmark for what
a "bad/unfair" trade is..... everything else is a degree of expensive-ness....
4) for thousands of years, ppl traded to get ahead, thats why you haggle......
5) Last but not least, if the system was opened up, the volume of traders would
solve this problem all by itself... IF 20 ppl are selling what you are, @ a better price
.... I'm pretty sure if you want customers you will have to bring your price down.
1) what system, and who decided it?
2) Elvenar is not the real world, trade is not voluntary, and players can not pick up and move if things are expensive where they are.
3) the wholesaler was introduced to give players a way to dump coins and supplies. It is a backstop, not a benchmark. Elvenar is a social game, and diamond sales are driven by relationships. Trade forces relationships.
4) Elvenar is not the real world, trade is not voluntary, and players can not pick up and move if things are expensive where they are.
5) If the system was opened up, pushing would be infinitely easier as you wouldn't even have to share a FS with your push accounts.
 

BrinDarby

Active Member
The game offers players to move.... So I think they can ...
Unless 1 person has 2 accts , its not a traditional Push Acct, most games
eliminate these accts.... 1 person giving to another, ohh well .... and
if some ppl cant do simple math.... ohh well.....

You say Elvenar is a social game, and so far its been anything but... if it was social
I could always have ppl to talk to from around the world 24/7/365..... I log for hours
and noone says a thing, and even a FS that was chatty, you're capp'd @ 25 ppl to talk to.

Trade is voluntary, but if everyone had to produce some of everything, it'd be a very
long/slow game for sure..... in comparison, most games have a in-game economy that
supplements revenue to the developers, that doesn't exsist here...

Please explain how diamond sales are driven by relationships... heck I don't even
know what to spend diamonds on, other than maybee a MA upgrade or two....
BrinD
 

Venar El

Well-Known Member
It certainly can be a social game, but ofc it being social relies heavily on your fellowship, and the amount of people you actually correspond with via messages. i have sometimes log in after a 5hour break to 100+ messages in chat. or chatted myself with someone for hours. Also the forum i would say is somewhat a part of the game, and being here makes the whole thing more social i think.

Other than that i believe you simply have alot of different opinions, i can see the merrits in both calling the tradesystem forced and voluntary. i think its a matter of perspective.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
The game offers players to move.... So I think they can ...
The option is whether or not you want htem to move you when they feel like it, Players have no control over when, where, or if, it happens

Unless 1 person has 2 accts , its not a traditional Push Acct, most games
eliminate these accts.... 1 person giving to another, ohh well .... and
if some ppl cant do simple math.... ohh well.....
They do have two accounts. some of them have many, even dozens. Currently they can't pass alrge amounts of goods without at leasat petting themselves in the same FS. No trade limits makes it easier to hide

You say Elvenar is a social game, and so far its been anything but... if it was social
I could always have ppl to talk to from around the world 24/7/365..... I log for hours
and noone says a thing, and even a FS that was chatty, you're capp'd @ 25 ppl to talk to.
Some groups don't use chat,. We use discord servers and other communication tools, and there are Facebook groups with thousands of members.

Please explain how diamond sales are driven by relationships... heck I don't even
know what to spend diamonds on, other than maybee a MA upgrade or two....
Lots of people spend money on tournaments, the Spire, and Fellowship adventures. Those are primarily driven by improving your FS's position.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
Sadly, the whole concept of "fairness" is fraught with problems. And in this game there are two definitions at play.

First, "Fairness" can be measured by satisfaction with the trade. I trade X for Y and if my trading partner and I are both happy with the trade, the trade, to us, is fair. This is "transaction fairness." It is a hallmark of "free markets."

On the other hand, if the trade results in some kind of market imbalance that effects the general market negatively, then the trade is "unfair" to the marketplace in general and specifically to those outside the transaction. This is "market fairness.' It is the hallmark of "regulated markets."

In this game there are two bodies regulating the markets. The developers determine the maximum and minimum trades ratios and the players further restrict those ratios through social pressure and fellowship enforcement.

Individual player though, often act as if the markets were "free markets" and post trades which, from their perspective, are "fair." An individual posting a 1 star trade believes the trade is beneficial to them and, that if somebody takes the 1 star trade then the taker must believe it is beneficial to them as well, right? In other words, since there is no coercion involved, and both sides are satisfied, the trade is "fair."

In the end while the player base can do whatever they wish, no matter what they do, they will be unfair to somebody as they favor "market fairness" over "transaction fairness." I've gone on record as thinking there is too much regulation -- from the devs at least -- and would like to see them move to a broader and more free style. But that is a discussion for another thread.

AJ
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
For me, the concept of 'free market' has very little to do with this game. In my largest city, I make it a point to only post trades with a 10% or higher discount to the player who accepts them. I have a huge inventory of goods there and will also offer to take very lopsided 1 or 0 star trades in favor of other FS members or neighbors I've gotten to know, when they have a need. I ignore all trades posted less than 2 star where I don't have a relationship/communication with the player posting those trades. Those relationships took time to develop, they didn't happen just because I showed up one day, lol!
I see this as a cooperative game, not a competitive one. There is no 'beating' other players, there is no 'winning' the game, there is just playing. While I can set myself some competitive goals (get my tourney avg over 4K, complete the Spire weekly, etc) and those could apply to my ranking score if I chose (thus setting up some competition between myself and other players), the game can be played and enjoyed without ever concerning oneself with any of that.
There are plenty of other games out there that provide competition between players and against the game itself, but I don't see Elvenar as that type of game. I would think that players who prefer that type of competitive environment would not be likely to enjoy this game.
My question for you @BrinDarby :
Is there anything about the structure of this game you do like?
 

BrinDarby

Active Member
@samidodamage ,
It seems pretty much like your standard watch the paint dry game, without the risk of attack like I've heard FoE is, or the last game of this type I played for 5+ years..... I like the logic aspect of the Spire, yet its too easy to me once I got the hang of it.... I like and have played games with hex fighting, and its fun learning each char's adv's and using them in battle, but I'm guessing @ a certain point if it stays the same too long over time it becomes stale, and the game would revert to more of a social game, but without ingame global chat thats impossible really for many ppl. I have never been a fan of eye-candy graphics, I'd rather have depth of game, and trade some visual overkill.... Its also specifically tailored to $$$ at almost every turn, even tho there are obvious avenues of new revenue that are being ignored.

You seem to have the opinion that i just keep dumping on the game, this premise is False..... without chat in game I am trying to be social here on the forum. @ the same time I feel its every players responcibility to help advance the game, in any way possible... no 1 team can think of everything, so it takes a village, have'n the playerbase brainstorm and give feedback shouldn't be seen as bad.

Always fighting the AI, will get tedious... I do like games where player on player interaction is possible, even if thats in a tournament setting only...

I like the fact this site has a real forum, not 1 thats a joke and is run by idiots like I have seen elsewhere... As any normal person, the TV adverts made this game sound very social and sound like there was an economy to access.....

Not competetive ??? don't FSs get all anal about being the best here, even to the point of trying to pull the best 1 person from 24 other FSs ???? They won't let in talent unless they have rediculious proven track record..... if ppl are so nice around here, why do so many players who get say above CH 5-6 ... forget new players need trade too.... very rarely do I see any offer below 1000, unless its mine....

I'm not trying to compete with anyone here, and I also like the fact we can have a debate/conversation without it becomming an argument or staff all over us and delete'n posts....

I have a computer background and game design theory, and I still have my trusty Apple IIe that works fine....

So you tell me something Sami ..... Where is the challange in an event such as AirTraders, when the task list is known ahead of time ? FSs don't even have to cooperate to help members along by sharing the tasks as they are encountered...... no, go get the list from gems, play 18 hrs a day, and you too can finish almost any event and get all the rewards..... tell me Sami, where is the challange in that ????
BrinD
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
I am quite certain BrinDarby likes me. Everybody likes me, right? (Please do not answer that question...LOL!).

In any case:

see this as a cooperative game, not a competitive one. There is no 'beating' other players, there is no 'winning' the game, there is just playing. While I can set myself some competitive goals (get my tourney avg over 4K, complete the Spire weekly, etc) and those could apply to my ranking score if I chose (thus setting up some competition between myself and other players), the game can be played and enjoyed without ever concerning oneself with any of that.
The question of competitive vs cooperative game is probably more of a red herring since, as you say, there are aspects of both in most games. After all, except for the first person shooter lone wolf type games most games have teams of some some sort and that's cooperation. Sometimes limited, sometimes not. In this game the competition, as noted, is generally on the fs level and if it wasn't competitive why would we have rankings? That we rank both fs's and individuals lays the groundwork for competition. On Khelonaar the same person wins the tourhament every week and has done so for months. Why would anybody want to do that unless they had a spirit of competitiveness? (For the first time in ages I see this week she's in 2nd place....wonder if she'll pour it on and reclaim her title? If she does, that's competition.). It's not the level of competition but the choice of how much that makes this game different. You don't have to fend off hoards of war kiddies in this game, and so the level of competitiveness is what you choose it to be. And that makes it appear more cooperative than others.

AJ
 

Venar El

Well-Known Member
@BrinDarby you seem really invested in this forum thing. You have a way of stating all sorts of things as a fact, and then your argument is .... thats not really an argument in my book, and also you seem to want to change the whole game in one go. I can naturally only talk for myself, but i dont have time to read, asses and answer your 20 or something points you make with each comment. Maybe keep it shorter and more to the point what you mean in each comment. with some sound arguments to why you mean that...

Ohh and @ajqtrz i like you, sort of, well i dont dislike you... haha ;) (kidding youre good)
 

Evening Star Selene

Active Member
You say Elvenar is a social game, and so far its been anything but... if it was social
I could always have ppl to talk to from around the world 24/7/365..... I log for hours
and noone says a thing, and even a FS that was chatty, you're capp'd @ 25 ppl to talk to.

BrinD
This all depends on the FS you are in. My FS is always on and chatting, we don't even necessarily talk about game stuff, just stuff that is going on in our lives. I never notice this 25 people cap, because these are my friends, and I want to hear from them. I don't care about quantity of people I talk to, rather quality in the chats that I have.

Another point, in order to be in, and stay in a good FS, you have to be willing to sacrifice a little bit. You help others out, and they'll help you. Show a stingy attitude, and you won't get much help when you need it. I don't think about how many times I've helped someone versus them helping me. I was shown tremendous kindness when I joined my FS as a small player, and now that I've grown, I am looking for ways to return that generosity. Just saying...
 
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