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    Your Elvenar Team

Unfair Trades

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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Can anyone explain how this is possible?
They trade the goods to their other city and just use that one for the bad trades to keep people from getting annoyed at them in their real city. Could even be an entire Fellowship using it as a bank and making profit off the people who hit them by accident.
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
They trade the goods to their other city and just use that one for the bad trades to keep people from getting annoyed at them in their real city. Could even be an entire Fellowship using it as a bank and making profit off the people who hit them by accident.
in order to trade one must first have goods to trade and a supply of them. For the amount of trades there needs to be a goodly amount being traded to him and only 2 players are in sentient goods in that FS
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
in order to trade one must first have goods to trade and a supply of them. For the amount of trades there needs to be a goodly amount being traded to him and only 2 players are in sentient goods in that FS
They only need to make one (1) batch of sentient (doesn't have to be boosted) in their Level 27 factory, then they can trade that for enough from the other city to get started. After that if all you are offering is bad trades, it's not hard to keep going.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Well-Known Member
I'm an Archmage.... I don't put any limits on trades. I don't care if my fellows post unfair trades.... no one in the fellowship has to take them. I generally take unfair trades if the poster is a new player, just because I remember how hard it was to get enough stock to really get a handle on my city. I will take unfair trades from my fellows... my fellowship is very small and I help as much as I can when I can.

I really don't understand all the vitriol about unfair trades.... Don't take them.

Edited to add..... I don't post unequal trades because they often get taken before the peeps I'm posting for can get them. So when someone has a need, I tell them to post the zero star trade and I take them.
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
@SoulsSilhouette did you see what I posted, and if members were posting trades like that day after day you wouldn't care? The issue is the player has no Sentient Mfg yet is posting trades of hundreds of thousands of sentient goods every day. the only way that works is to suck up others 3 star trades and resell as 1 star. Lets, see what do we call an organism that does that, oh yes a parasite
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
The only time I think people should post unfair trades is when they have stated in chat that they have a specific need to fill a specific quest for an event or a tourney or something special. Then the fellowship can quickly help with those trades and get them off the market in record time. Having unfair trades linger for days and days is just asking for trouble. It makes other players resent you (to the point where some of them will never take your two star trades, when you post them ... I know one person who hates another so much for their constant unfair trades that they've blackballed anything from them.) It also makes it harder to avoid an accidental click when the screen jumps.

What if Inno made it so that zero and one-star trades (truly one star, not the ones that are caused by the trader fee) can only be up for 24 hours instead of the regular time limit? That would give people enough time for their specific event need trades, but also get rid of them quickly so that it would reduce accidental clicks. I don't know; it might be a good idea.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Well-Known Member
@SoulsSilhouette did you see what I posted, and if members were posting trades like that day after day you wouldn't care? The issue is the player has no Sentient Mfg yet is posting trades of hundreds of thousands of sentient goods every day. the only way that works is to suck up others 3 star trades and resell as 1 star. Lets, see what do we call an organism that does that, oh yes a parasite
No one is forcing anyone to take those trades. Not to mention, if they are taking trades for SGoods, then they have to be at that chapter and they HAVE to have some goods to trade. You cannot trade regular goods for Sents. So like I said, DON'T TAKE THEM.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Well-Known Member
The only time I think people should post unfair trades is when they have stated in chat that they have a specific need to fill a specific quest for an event or a tourney or something special. Then the fellowship can quickly help with those trades and get them off the market in record time. Having unfair trades linger for days and days is just asking for trouble. It makes other players resent you (to the point where some of them will never take your two star trades, when you post them ... I know one person who hates another so much for their constant unfair trades that they've blackballed anything from them.) It also makes it harder to avoid an accidental click when the screen jumps.

What if Inno made it so that zero and one-star trades (truly one star, not the ones that are caused by the trader fee) can only be up for 24 hours instead of the regular time limit? That would give people enough time for their specific event need trades, but also get rid of them quickly so that it would reduce accidental clicks. I don't know; it might be a good idea.

They could add a warning that you are about to take an unfair trade... or they could add a fair trade tab, so you click it like you do for sent goods, regular goods, fellowship only, etc... I have unintentionally taken zero star trades, thank you internet laggedy lag, but at the end of the day... It's a game... some people play fair, others don't. I don't sweat the stuff I can control... aka, deciding to accept or ignore a trade....
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
I'm an Archmage.... I don't put any limits on trades. I don't care if my fellows post unfair trades.... no one in the fellowship has to take them. I generally take unfair trades if the poster is a new player, just because I remember how hard it was to get enough stock to really get a handle on my city. I will take unfair trades from my fellows... my fellowship is very small and I help as much as I can when I can.

I really don't understand all the vitriol about unfair trades.... Don't take them.

Edited to add..... I don't post unequal trades because they often get taken before the peeps I'm posting for can get them. So when someone has a need, I tell them to post the zero star trade and I take them.
"Unfair" trades are not unfair if "no one in the fellowship has to take them" exactly because to be unfair you have to be forced to take them. Coercion is always unfair. BUT, on the other hand, while it probably can't happen here overall, it may happen locally, a shortage of a good because somebody or a group of somebodies are taking as many of the two or three star as they can with the intention of re-posting at a hefty profit, restricts the supply. This means they can "force" a player who is stopped in their tracks waiting for a supply of a good, to either pay for the one or no star trades or wait. That, while not strictly unethical because it's a market decision, is "unfair" in that it coerces the purchaser. It is interesting to note that the sense of the community is that it is unfair to manipulate the markets (to the degree one can). If this were not so the label "unfair" would not be attached to such trades and fellowships wouldn't have rules against it.

In addition, one can "not care" about others in the game and let them suffer or succeed, according to their own choices, but since what one does in the game impacts the overall pleasure in the game -- both for ourselves and others -- one ought to "care" I think. I care about there being a lot of happy, active players in the game and to get that I strive to reduce any unpleasantness where I can. Avoiding drama, visiting regularly, commenting pleasantly in chat and other places, and, not posting "unfair" trades so that I don't accidentally trigger a bad experience in my fellow players are small things, but they do add up. In the long run while it may be "just a game" those playing it are not "just avatars" and thus they do have feelings. Any little thing I can do to make those feelings pleasurable, I think I should do.

AJ
 
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SoulsSilhouette

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz It's not that I don't 'care' in the sense of 'it's every elf for themself' ... It's that I'm not going to impose a rule that restricts someone's play. I see zero and one star trades all the time. Like I said, if the poster is new.... and that is easily determined by a quick peek at their city... I'll take them and send a 'welcome to my 'hood' message. I know my 'hood. I know who posts trades... with a few clicks you can tell whether or not they are legit players or using a push account to get goods to trade with their other nick or fellowship.
'
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
@SoulsSilhouette Wouldn't it just be easier than having to do all that work to figure out who is a "push" and who is not, to just have a general rule? It would make it easier on the other players in your area who may not have the time to look everybody up or haven't been there long enough to "know" their neighborhood. You can't restrict your neighborhood but you can your fellowship and that should contribute to making the push accounts more obvious and easier to ignore.

I think it's admirable you send them a message to new players. Does it include information about the general view of low star trades? Hopefully it does, or at least a link to some discussion of the matter. After all, most players want to live in a "socially acceptable" manner and will voluntarily support the general consensus because it's what sustains their own reputation as a "good" player. I'm not saying it's the right or wrong policy but that one does have to think about one's reputation, or at least most people find it pretty important. I doubt that posting a few low star trades is going to hurt that reputation much ....unless it's constant. I have several people in my area who do so and I refuse to trade with them even if they offer high star trades. Too many low star trades (I don't worry about the occasional ones as they are usually a mistake or for a purpose), and your trading will probably suffer. At least it will if you are in my neighborhood.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing that some of the people who don't understand the thread aren't aware that until it got resurrected last month, the rest of it came before changes to the trader sorting, at a time when all of one good was lumped together and sorted by quantity, with T3 at the top, then T2, then T1, instead of sorted by trade value, with the one and zero start trades being sorted out at the bottom. So you might have an offer of 10,000 gems at two star, followed by an offer of 10,000 gems at zero star, followed by an offer of 9000 gems at three star. At the time it was about 10 times easier to get a zero star trade by accident.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz I will start to include a statement about unfair trades... I will also add a link to the forums and to elvengems as well. Since I'm typing anyway, it won't be too onerous to add a few more statements.

I should also add that I have a pretty good memory. I have no idea why, but I remember who my neighbors are and who is active in the trader and who isn't... so when a newb shows up.... I just know.

It's really a rather bothersome thing because I have no trouble accessing inconsequential things like this, but other things.... my mind dumps deep and I have to really concentrate on accessing it.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
@SoulsSilhouette I visit my neighbors every day....at least the ones in fellowships and the 5 or so that are not but I know are active as I see them posting trades and such. The "trick" is, visiting every day makes you remember who your neighbors are and that, I would suggest, is probably why you remember who is active and who is not. Most players, unfortunately or now, can't or won't visit every day so most players will have only the vaguest idea of who is active around them and who is not. At least that's been my experience in talking with people.

Frankly, I wish you were in my fs/neighborhood as you are probably one of those players we'd all love to have around us.

AJ
 

neeronie

Well-Known Member
Are there just a bunch of horrible, selfish people who play this game, or am I just missing something? It is a rare thing to find a two-star rated trade. I try to make sure mine are at least two stars. Am I just stupid or what? I am pretty new to this, and I don't understand.
Are you in a fellowship? It is hard to get started without one. If you are new, you may also not have noticed that each player has a boosted good in each tier. Check the lower left and right corners of your city on the map and above your city. This will show you which are your boosted goods. It does not pay to build the other because you have a trading advantage when trading your boosted for the others in the same tier.
 

BrinDarby

Active Member
The most unfair trade is the trade not completed due to a trader fee.....
Yes, I've been told trade is ltd to 250-300 ppl, I shall assume concentric
hex circles, and I have heard thru forum upper players will usually have
more than the cap.

Not only is the current system so horribly skew'd to older players, It prolly
is 1 of the top 3 reasons new ppl quit so soon......

I'm CH3 and I have 52 neighbors, of those 3 trade regularly, and 4 more outside
my free trade zone also trade regularly.... thats 7 of 250 ?????
Ch1-2 players have far fewer than I ....

Take that CH1 player with 10-15 neighbors, they might have 1-2 ppl to trade with
and then they better hope those 2 ppl have opposite boosts.....
Even a CH2 player with 20-25 neighbors will have the same problem...
Not only that small players do trades in the 10-100 range, not the 1k-10k that
older players usually trade..... and usually won't see any trades small enuff
for them to even take......

Take for example..... person A and person B.......
Person A is 3 hex's too far away and pays a 50% fee to player B.
Player B has discovered player A and therefore has NO trader fee....
Both put up a 1:1 trade..... but to player A, its 1:1.5 whereas to
player B who still has a 1:1 to look @ ....

That comparative adv, ruins the whole system for the newer players.

Next thing everyone will say is : Just let the game move you to a better location...
That is NOT a guarentee that a new area will be better.....

The biggest evil here is that players CANNOT scout in 1 direction to go "discover"
that person who does trade, again because of concentric Hex's. 1 ring might be
170k, but next hex is 290k, and so on and so on.... so even 3 missing hex's away
might take someone 2-3 months.... just cause that person id 3 hex's away......

If a player's scouting simply increased on a linear scale, then someone could scout
in 1 direction for 4-5 hex's to "discover" that person, and each scout increased evenly...
no matter what "ring" they are in...... Yes I know, but thats not how elvenar is setup...

Yes , and that setup is what is A) dumb and B) counterproductive to RETENTION of
newer players...... The biggest revenue source is NEW PLAYERS.... yet the game itself
@ almost every turn favors long time players...... Players don't stay long enuff, and
even myself.... no-trade or a silly trade system is a dealbreaker really.....

Putting aside the 1:1 issue, or the trader fee issue..... a functioning economy is one
where there are 3 main types of player........ Old, middle, new ...

The Middle player usually trades both ways up/down... whereas the old player usually
trades with mid players and old players, but not mainly new players..... conversely,
the new player mostly trades with the mid player and other smaller players , because
thier trade amts really have no good use for old players... just too small....

Constantly in my part of the Map, T1 goods are the most in demand, yet the players
that produce the most T1 goods are not there, they are new players that have quit,
gone inactive, or otherwise don't really play........ So a constant shortage of T1 goods
exsist every week like clockwork.....

When the game itself is slanted to making just boosted goods and trading for the others,
you can't then make a trade system that gives players such a small pool of trading partners!!
CH1-2 players don't have the Spire, and lvl-1 seems to always drain T1 goods the most, so.....
those CH1-2 players shud be supply'n, thru trade, mid-upper players with those T1 goods,
and building up thier T2/3 goods in the process to make moving up is easier.....

if so many ppl seem to be anal about "unfair trades", then why aren't more ppl
speaking out for the newer players that keep the whole economy running ?????
3% of my capp'd 250 trading partners is ludicrious thats with a fee.... "without", that
drops to around 1%.........or 2-3 ppl..... :mad:
BrinD
 

Sandstorm173

Active Member
Not only that small players do trades in the 10-100 range, not the 1k-10k that
older players usually trade..... and usually won't see any trades small enuff
for them to even take.....
That's why it is suggested to post trades instead of searching for one's you can accept, especially when you are a new player. Many advanced players will help with trades, you just need to post them.

Take for example..... person A and person B.......
Person A is 3 hex's too far away and pays a 50% fee to player B.
Player B has discovered player A and therefore has NO trader fee....
Both put up a 1:1 trade..... but to player A, its 1:1.5 whereas to
player B who still has a 1:1 to look @ ....

That comparative adv, ruins the whole system for the newer players.
Then player A could post trades and player B could accept them. Player A could join a fellowship and trade without a fee.

.....

if so many ppl seem to be anal about "unfair trades", then why aren't more ppl
speaking out for the newer players that keep the whole economy running ???
They don't really "keep the economy running" until they can produce enough goods to make a dent in the required amount of goods for advanced players. And I wouldn't say that one group keeps the economy running, different people trading and growing and helping each other does. If there were only new players to trade goods to advanced players to help with stuff, no one would get anywhere.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
The Middle player usually trades both ways up/down... whereas the old player usually
trades with mid players and old players, but not mainly new players
..... conversely,
the new player mostly trades with the mid player and other smaller players , because
thier trade amts really have no good use for old players... just too small....
My experience is that older players, like myself, actually tend to take ALL the small (lower player) trades as a matter of course. The trades seldom impact the flow of goods and, more importantly, they help the smaller players grow. The "trick" is to encourage the smaller players to go ahead and post some small trades. Posting is preferred since it means you are getting whatever you want without searching/waiting for it to be posted by somebody else. It is true that I seldom post trades below 10k unless their sentient goods, but I always pick up my fs and neighborhood trades at or below 1000. And I know a lot of larger players who do the same. I guess what I'm saying is that while the trade system isn't perfect the habit of many larger players to pick up the smaller trades as a matter of course is probably helping retain more members than you think. And while the trade system could use an overhaul, it's probably not the reason players are leaving.

Overall I agree that the trading system here could use some work. I'd like to see it more "free market" without the set ratios for "fair" and "unfair" trades. But that's my opinion and not everybody's cup of tea.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
That comparative adv, ruins the whole system for the newer players.
Yet somehow there are older players.
The most unfair trade is the trade not completed due to a trader fee.....
Yes, I've been told trade is ltd to 250-300 ppl, I shall assume concentric
hex circles, and I have heard thru forum upper players will usually have
more than the cap.

Not only is the current system so horribly skew'd to older players, It prolly
is 1 of the top 3 reasons new ppl quit so soon......
That seems very unlikely, since the vast majority of new players who quit do so before they get far enough to build a trader, so have no idea what the trader looks like.
The biggest evil here
I think you don't understand "evil." The word you are looking for might be "inconvenience" or "frustration" or "reason to buy diamonds."
The biggest evil here is that players CANNOT scout in 1 direction to go "discover"
that person who does trade, again because of concentric Hex's. 1 ring might be
170k, but next hex is 290k, and so on and so on.... so even 3 missing hex's away
might take someone 2-3 months.... just cause that person id 3 hex's away......

If a player's scouting simply increased on a linear scale, then someone could scout
in 1 direction for 4-5 hex's to "discover" that person, and each scout increased evenly...
And then what would the game be like for new players who had no fair trades at all, because all the larger cities ignored them and only explored in straight lines to other big cities, so had no reason to take new, little, players trades or bother exploring to them?

And what shall the developers do to make you happy if, having gone in a straight line 12 hexes over to a good trading partner, they move the next day and are replaced with a large city that's in a good fellowship and ignores your trades because they haven't found you because you aren't big enough for them to care about so they start scouting in a straight line the other way to a large trading partner?

Trade is two way. best to consider how what you want for yourself will be used by other players as well.
The Middle player usually trades both ways up/down... whereas the old player usually
trades with mid players and old players, but not mainly new players..... conversely,
the new player mostly trades with the mid player and other smaller players , because
thier trade amts really have no good use for old players... just too small....
Says who? Have you done any controlled research to backup that claim of fact? I take every single fair, non-cross-tier, trade of less than 50,000 units in my neighbourhood at least once a day, usually more often. I know others do the same. It's not worth my putting up dozens of small trades because they will wipe out my notifications and I won't know who visited. It's not because I don't want to trade with small cities.
When the game itself is slanted to making just boosted goods and trading for the others,
you can't then make a trade system that gives players such a small pool of trading partners!!
And yet, somehow, despite the fact you can't do it, the game trudges on....

if so many ppl seem to be anal about "unfair trades", then why aren't more ppl
speaking out for the newer players that keep the whole economy running ?????
3% of my capp'd 250 trading partners is ludicrious thats with a fee.... "without", that
drops to around 1%.........or 2-3 ppl..... :mad:
BrinD

if so many ppl seem to be anal about "unfair trades",
You mean all eight who have complained in this thread over the last 4 years? So many players it's like a tsunami of complaints.

speaking out for the newer players that keep the whole economy running ?????
3% of my capp'd 250 trading partners is ludicrious thats with a fee.... "without", that
drops to around 1%.........or 2-3 ppl..... :mad:
Again, most new players who quit have never placed the trader and don't know how many trading partners they don't have. The majority of those who do get that far have already learned that the game is one of patience. We get a 700% boost to our production, which means anyone who isn't offering at least a 20% margin (and probably 100%) to others to accept their trades probably has no legitimate cause to complain about not enough trading partners.
 
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