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    Your Elvenar Team

Unfair Trades

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AtaguS

Well-Known Member
@BrinDarby I have watched and participated as members here have tried to address your difficulties with the game by offering tried and true solutions. But it does seem the only solution you will entertain is a general consent to your desire to profit off trades and have everyone who has been playing this game one way, switch and play it another - for you. And here is where I think you are running into trouble.

but the point to trade is still trade, not swap ...... swap is what you do within a FS....
Says who?
I agree with you that a "Trade" could also be defined as a "Swap" and from the day I built mine I have viewed it as just this; a place to swap my boosted goods for my non-boosted goods.
Someone out there - either in my fs or beyond - has an abundance of boosted silk but needs scrolls,
while I have an abundance of boosted scrolls and need silk.
It is a win win.

But I disagree that the use of the word trade automatically implies some capitalistic definition where profit is king and fair is defined by someone being desperate enough in an unfair market to take an unfair trade. I see no evidence of that being what Inno meant but a ton of evidence that it isn't what Inno meant.

No one is barred by the system from using the trader to turn a profit but there will be push back from a majority of players because it runs counter to how a majority of players play, and that alone may be enough to act as a barrier to that strategy. I've heard multiple members tell you that nothing stops you from trying to play this way, but they personally wouldn't take your trades. If you are still unsuccessful with this game strategy after all this time, perhaps it is because the playing populace at large feels the same way. Not because the game is flawed.

This is a game of choosing approaches and strategies. If this one is not working for you, try another - we've all changed some strategy at one time or another as the game changes, or just as we grow. But, if you are instistant that the strategy you have chosen should work, and that the game and all its players ought to change theirs to make your strategy successful - then maybe consider this is an issue with your strategy and not the game at large.

It just feels like catch 22, Darielle ..... I can't be social there, and I can't be social here, simply cause I have
a unique personality, I post too much, and as we all do have an opinion on everything...... heh heh
Brin, unfortunately there is a pattern emerging where your posts - unintentionally though it may be - antagonize forum members. But you cry foul or claim confusion when they react to being antagonized. Much of this is in your delivery and one aspect of success in any social game or interaction is taking charge of your own delivery.

This isn't the first time someone has tried to point that out to you and this, too, is a helpful tip being offered in good faith. I have to agree this pattern is more chaos and conflict making than I'm willing to engage with in an otherwise fun forum. I do wish you the best of luck in the game and hope you find a strategy which allows you to enjoy it as much as we all do. And I hope to find interaction with you in the future of a brighter nature. So I hope you stick around.
But on the topic of trading and your resulting frustrations, I'm getting off the merry-go-round too.

[Editted for length, believe it or not]
 
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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
dbbl checked just now... I posted the following 3 offers...
500:501 , 1000:1001 , 2000:2002 ...... and yes I was wrong in that there is what .1% profit, not a better than 1:1 trade...
But....... the 1st (2) are listed as 2star and the 3rd is a 1 star trade ..... ( .1% of 1000 = 1 and .1% of 2000 = 2 )
therefore both #2 and #3 offers are the same % yet different stars ???? 2 vs 1 ??? thats halarious and WRONG .....
All 3 offers were Elixer : Dust ..... so don't say its a cross tier trade, please ........... the game is wrong.....

Next, wow I was wrong again, and look'd @ my cheat sheet to quickly ....
100 steel = 110 marble = 116 planks .... I had them backwards, oops.... sry ......
using lvl-1 bldgs and since steel is a 2x2, then 2 of each of the other... T2/3 dont have that problem.
I'll have to get you the formula I used, its not on this device but it gave all goods a raw score on the same formula.

If I was perfect, or a know-it-all, or smarter... whatever, I prolly wouldn't admit any mistakes.
Were they simple oooops's, well yeah, but still .......
Now we come to a crux. You are not perfect, but if the game programmers round trades to four significant figures for calculating if they are a better than average deal, they are "halarious (sic) and WRONG."

I imagine you could be hilarious to deal with in day-to-day life. "I know $2000 is a fair price for my used car, but I'm going to sell it for $2001 so I'll be getting a good price."
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
@Darielle
You hit on some very good points. Thank you.
Frankly, I too, am weary of this whole, pick on the new player, and everything is unfair to me, and I'm smarter than the game, and this is supposed to be a social game etc., etc.
I think I either need to stay away from the forum for a while or just this whole thread.
It is to the point I will say something I shouldn't...maybe I already have.
Thank you, Shimmerfly. You're smarter than I am, because I already went past that point. I said something I really didn't want to say. I try to be nice at all times ... when I'm not, that's when I know I should get off the thread or at least stop feeding the bottomless pit. Frustration is ambrosia to people who love to come in, guns blazing, to create chaos. I need to stop feeding it. I appreciate your comment.
 

Iyapo1

Active Member
Can anyone point to a site with a breakdown on actual value for cross tier?

I actually would prefer not to screw over my team.
 

LionWheel

New Member
I'm a rather new player and would LIKE to make sure my trades are fair, but I don't have a lot of inventory to play with and encounters (all at "very hard") are eating up my resources, so I can't afford a 1000/1500 trade. Folks on my world Elycsandir sp?) . Most trades on my world are for gems and scrolls and such., and very few for steel/marble/planks. Also it seems that the majority of cities I've discovered are working all three manufactures. I do NOT have access to diamonds (way to broke to buy any) and so my city space is highly limited.

I'm told joining a fellowship is a good tactic, but none want me thus far, and frankly though I am all for giving neighorly help, I am getting nowhere so far. Suggestions?
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Oh holy wow! I might need to....reconsider. I did not realize the trader was that far off.
That's purely on the basis of how many supplies it takes to produce a unit of goods. That was how the trader was set originally, and we asked them to adjust, taking into account that it doesn't require 16 times as much space as T1, and doesn't require 16 times as much population as T1 and doesn't require 16 times as much culture as T1.

It was the (very) rough equivalent of saying a cell phones should be worth .00034 the value of a motorcycle, because it only needs .00034 as much metal and plastic. So if the average price of a smart phone is $800.00 I guess motorcycles should be worth around two and quarter million dollars each.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Can anyone point to a site with a breakdown on actual value for cross tier?
There was substantial discussion for more than a year on Beta, and the values as listed in the trader are about as accurate as we could reach taking all inputs into account. The trader values as they are now are very close what Soggy and a few others thought they should be.
 

Iyapo1

Active Member
I'm a rather new player and would LIKE to make sure my trades are fair, but I don't have a lot of inventory to play with and encounters (all at "very hard") are eating up my resources, so I can't afford a 1000/1500 trade. Folks on my world Elycsandir sp?) . Most trades on my world are for gems and scrolls and such., and very few for steel/marble/planks. Also it seems that the majority of cities I've discovered are working all three manufactures. I do NOT have access to diamonds (way to broke to buy any) and so my city space is highly limited.

I'm told joining a fellowship is a good tactic, but none want me thus far, and frankly though I am all for giving neighorly help, I am getting nowhere so far. Suggestions?
Post your trades. Anything you need post a trade. Dont try to accept trades just post post post. Posting here should get you FS offers. Posting specifically in the members seeking section of this forum will definitely get you Fellowship invites.
 

Iyapo1

Active Member
There was substantial discussion for more than a year on Beta, and the values as listed in the trader are about as accurate as we could reach taking all inputs into account. The trader values as they are now are very close what Soggy and a few others thought they should be.
Thank you!
 

Sandstorm173

Active Member
I'm a rather new player and would LIKE to make sure my trades are fair, but I don't have a lot of inventory to play with and encounters (all at "very hard") are eating up my resources, so I can't afford a 1000/1500 trade. Folks on my world Elycsandir sp?) . Most trades on my world are for gems and scrolls and such., and very few for steel/marble/planks. Also it seems that the majority of cities I've discovered are working all three manufactures. I do NOT have access to diamonds (way to broke to buy any) and so my city space is highly limited.

I'm told joining a fellowship is a good tactic, but none want me thus far, and frankly though I am all for giving neighorly help, I am getting nowhere so far. Suggestions?
LOL beach on Elcysandir is looking for active members.
 

Iyapo1

Active Member
Also @LionWheel

Ashrem's reply to me:

There was substantial discussion for more than a year on Beta, and the values as listed in the trader are about as accurate as we could reach taking all inputs into account. The trader values as they are now are very close what Soggy and a few others thought they should be.
Means that a two star, as auto filled by the ingame trader, is close to fair.
 
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T6583

Well-Known Member
@LionWheel post your trades. Don't look wait for what you need to show up in the trader. Also don't be afraid to reach out to larger cities that are near you on the map until you can find an FS to join. Send them an ingame message asking if they would be willing to help you out with a few 1 or 0 star trades for goods you need. Most players are more than happy to help out new players.
FYI the first 3 1/2 pages of this thread are from 4 years ago when the system was different than it is today. It was resurrected in June by a new player who didn't realize this thread was started in 2016
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Means that a two star, as auto filled by the ingame trader, is close to fair.
This is true. You'll also find that many players still avoid taking cross-tier trades. Partly, that's a holdover from the old system. Partly, when you've already balanced your own production taking a lot of cross-tier trades can mess that up. Many people still see them as "in a pinch" trades and not the norm. Many people also expect cross-tier to be offered at a healthy 3 stars.

Just an FYI about player dynamics, because it's fairly common for people to post 2-star, fair, cross-tier trades and wonder why they aren't picked up quickly.

YMMV depending on your trading partners.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
This is true. You'll also find that many players still avoid taking cross-tier trades. Partly, that's a holdover from the old system. Partly, when you've already balanced your own production taking a lot of cross-tier trades can mess that up. Many people still see them as "in a pinch" trades and not the norm. Many people also expect cross-tier to be offered at a healthy 3 stars.

Just an FYI about player dynamics, because it's fairly common for people to post 2-star, fair, cross-tier trades and wonder why they aren't picked up quickly.

YMMV depending on your trading partners.
I do cross tier when I'm in a big bind for the tourneys, but I'll always give better than my normal discount on those. 5000 dust for 9000 steel is a good deal and better than a 5 percent discount. I usually have those picked up the same day, and then can manage my tourneys without a hitch. I only have 4 dust factories (I only do boosts) but for some reason I always have more than enough of that. When I had 3 I used to run short. Funny how just one extra one gives me an excess.

Thanks for letting me know how others see those trades.
 

BrinDarby

Active Member
But the game has to, in the end, cater to the majority. The majority of current forum participants like the fair-trade-by-star system.
When Inno nerf'd AWs, was that the majority view..... prolly not... if Inno chgs the tournaments , will that be from the majority... no cause it will as you said, piss off older players...... this view of "unfair" is really just an attempt of those same older players, trying to hang on to something that really does need to chg....... I'll agree cheap or expensive, but unfair ??? Unfair is 1 adjective that really has no place here @ all..... when determining an average rate to use for Trade ...... whereas its completely "unfair" to slant the game to..... boost only goods then trade from there, when trade is non-exsistant to so many players.....

Your words , the quote , perfectly frames... the haves vs the have nots ... same as a senior vs a freshmen in HS.... or even world government.... those in power try to stay in power thru rules.... or bully'n..... The majority doesn't rule around, here Inno-Games does......

and not using any of it,
exactly... hording it by default, but not actively .....

I dont wanna hurt the game @ your expense, but you are benefitting @ my expense... and thats not right.
How is it the right of anyone to tell others how to play the game ???? including FSs...... I can see , within a FS,
only trading 1:1 , thats the FS discount, but to have a FS tell anyone how to play outside the FS is a form of
repression, domination, bully'n, and downright wrong.....

By me saying.... "this or that" is "good or bad" thats not making it personal with the person I'm talking to,
I get it, the old players want the status-quo, no chgs ever again, and anyone who might have good ideas,
ohh just beat them down into submission till they comply............ no thk you !!

As for "real values of goods" yes I only used # tiles & # pop, and the only way to compare apples to apples is using all lvl-1 bldgs with no boost applied. Also since we all have to live with 1 : 1.5 between tiers, you have to evaluate each tier seperately, then apply the 1:1.5 to that....
In reality, its everything need'd to build/keep a factory producing... like whats the actual cost of the pop in terms of other bldgs and thier associated costs... the forumla I used gave me a "raw" score for producing goods......

Planks 111.4, Marble 101.25, Steel 96.2, Crystal 107.3, Silk 98, Scrolls 85.8, Elixer 82.1, Dust 76.4, and Gems 67.3...
this perfectly illustrates that as you move tiers, the manufacturing gets more efficient...... Things like the Moonstone Library set ( to scrolls ) does effect in some ways supply/demand, or ANY bldg/set that gives goods... If planned correctly I bet alotta ppl could run a decent city with 0 production, and just bonus goods.....

You mentioned my FS, and that has nothing to do with MY discussion on value of goods....

in the end Ashram, Elvenar is a buisness..... and if there's more $$$ in newer players, then you're a die'n breed... they've already milked you for what they can, now its time to milk the new players... this isn't good for me or you, duhhhhh but you cannot spend 1-2$ in aquisition costs for players, then ignore the retention side of things.... otherwise that 1-2$ was wasted.....

Since you and everyone else, it seems want me gone, go get Xelina and have me banned, otherwise quit bully'n me and picking apart in minute detail every aspect of every post I make...
BrinD
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
I do cross tier when I'm in a big bind for the tourneys, but I'll always give better than my normal discount on those. 5000 dust for 9000 steel is a good deal and better than a 5 percent discount. I usually have those picked up the same day, and then can manage my tourneys without a hitch. I only have 4 dust factories (I only do boosts) but for some reason I always have more than enough of that. When I had 3 I used to run short. Funny how just one extra one gives me an excess.

Thanks for letting me know how others see those trades.
I've definitely picked up more cross tier trades since the change in the trader, and seen a lot more as well. I guess that goes hand in hand, lol.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
I've definitely picked up more cross tier trades since the change in the trader, and seen a lot more as well. I guess that goes hand in hand, lol.
I've seen less, I think. But more that go from low to high, instead of constantly t3 for everything else. I've been more willing to pick them up, too. I still get annoyed at people who seem to offer mostly cross-tier, but occasional rebalancing across tiers seems very reasonable, especially when it's offered at a discount.
 
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