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    Your Elvenar Team

Unhappy w/rebooting, harder battles? What gives?

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I enjoyed suggestions. I enjoyed debating things that make the game better for new players. I don't, at all, enjoy complaints from anyone that having made it past chapter 10, and have 400+ explored provinces (in part because they have larger squads) they can't get as much benefit from the tournaments as players who don't enjoy fighting and haven't taken optional squad techs and pretty-much-guaranteed, don't have 400+ explored provinces.

I really don't think that is a fair response at all to what I posted.
I'm sorry that looks like it's a response to you. I've said before, when I don't quote anyone, it's generally because my point isn't a direct response to anyone. I didn't quote anybody. I'm tired of the game, and I'm tired of general, incessant, whinging. Best of luck to all who still enjoy playing.
 

nightrider1

Well-Known Member
the natural urge is build and fight as fast as you can. if you can manage a slow and easy pace its much easier to play. i started this in my main world, now in elementals. my provinces are rated easy and I don't push much past 10 2nd level tourney yet i've outpaced in advancement over most of my fellows. in my other world now in fairies and never experience any great difficulty as opposed to my first endeavor
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
Same here! I didn't understand the dynamic of this. I definitely never did the math. I will still leave the math to Soggy :p I really appreciate it! Things have changed over time. Imperatives that I learned from top players when I was in a top 3 FS have definitely had some changes, like "always keep your scout busy." Now the easiest ones I have are medium difficulty. The trade off between difficulty to complete provinces and the KP I can buy daily when I do world visits is worth it to me but still glad to have clarification. I also know something changed with the research on Inno's part. I know they forced us to go back and do the research that had been optional at the time. I have no doubt about that. I remember player confusion when exclamation points Inno put on the chapter icons didn't go away after the skipped research was done. My point is that I appreciate understanding some things I did not pay much attention to. I noticed battling seems to get more difficult and now I understand 1 of the reasons relative to tournaments. I hope that my comments didn't come across as complaining since my intention was to find out if some of the "facts" I had were actually still "facts".
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
I enjoyed suggestions. I enjoyed debating things that make the game better for new players. I don't, at all, enjoy complaints from anyone that having made it past chapter 10, and have 400+ explored provinces (in part because they have larger squads) they can't get as much benefit from the tournaments as players who don't enjoy fighting and haven't taken optional squad techs and pretty-much-guaranteed, don't have 400+ explored provinces.

This is pretty opposite from my game. I chose this game because I did not want to battle. For probably 1 1/2 years I did not battle at all and catered everything. And yet I have 431 explored provinces and a few more scouted. I only started battling at all because of tournaments.

As far as new players go I can definitively say that I made one BIG mistake! When I got to the point I did not have the required space for one of the guest races I sold off some of my Ancient Wonders, primarily ones that related to troops. I had built them because I simply wanted them all as a personal goal. Finally, after Haflings, I did build all of the AW I didn't have. Needless to say I am sure that I am paying the price for the mistake of not having and upgrading them for most of the time I have played this game. I have no doubt I am paying now because of this mistake when it comes to troops & battles now that they seem necessary.
 

DeletedUser1108

Guest
"Allows you to fight with bigger armies, which will make fights easier" is what it says on the squad size upgrade. Seems to me it gets more difficult with each upgrade. I'm pretty sure I have also recently read that this is the case. Since I don't think the tournament is worth wiping out all of my troops I can produce and wiping out ridiculous amounts of goods to cater, they just don't seem worth it to me.
I believe that the statement you've quoted is meant to apply to the provinces rather than the tourneys, it seems that when your province battles get easier, the tourney battles get harder. I believe that is an intentional part of the design.
I am startled by the comments on what type of tourney is easiest/hardest...I've always found planks, steel and dust to be easiest!!
 

DeletedUser1108

Guest
@Ashrem Thanks, I hadn't looked at it like that.
For me, the world map is much less costly to fight than the tournaments. I'm doing okay in tourneys; primarily fighting through the 4th round. Sometimes there will be some I lose in 4, but not often. The 5th rounds are a crap shoot, lol! But, I haven't neglected my goods, so catering is always an option. I've not taken optional SS techs starting in Dwarves, now in early Woodelves and the most it's done for map provinces is make some go from very easy to easy. That may be related more to my obsession on exploring exactly the number of provinces for the next chapter and no more. I tend to leave the last 8-9 scouted and not completed until after finishing the AW tech at the end of the chapter. I get annoyed if I have to even scout an extra one (for an event quest or such) before the next advanced scout is activated. So, yeah, obsessive. I'm sure that's why I hadn't noticed there was a trade off of any significance.
Just one more example of the different roads available...I've never skipped anything, doesn't even occur to me. I am 159 provinces beyond the 'sweet spot' yet I still win more than 60% of the battles in every province, 80% of tourney battles (I always finish 6 rounds of 8 to 10 provs) and I don't mind the catering costs when necessary because what else is the stuff for if it isn't to spend it? I still manage to stay between 700k and a million on every type of goods, but I am not at all shy about spending my stuff when I want something.
 

MirandaZink

Active Member
The logic with fighting needs a review - it's pretty clear to most people that have been playing this game for > a year that something isn't right. Unfortunately I feel that the developers have bigger problems to contend with like broken chat, server response time (rebooting - game freezing), FS Adventures from Hell . . .just to name a few.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Have you offset this by the increased production ability you gained from other techs in that chapter?
There is no barracks upgrade in chapter 12:(
Just promotions for banshee, orc warrior, and vallorian guards.
The one production upgrade is unlocking training grounds for levels 17-20.
Good point about the wonders though, the FA, SSS, DB are all based on SS, so those will increase production.
Not that I expect you to calc this
Nonsense. We both knew as soon as you asked that I would calc this, or at least break it down a little:D
Trainings grounds from level 16 to 20 gets me 50% faster training on dogs, so I'll get a boost for those 2 tournaments, but at a cost of 50% more supplies too.
  • All provinces:22.8% more troops needed
  • Marble&Gems--22.8% more mages from Flying Academy, so I'll still make ~126 squads per 9 weeks with it, which is ~50% of what I use
  • Steel--22.8% more archers from SSS, so I'll still make ~126 squads per 9 weeks with it, which is ~50% of what I use
  • Planks&Elixir-- A little boost from Vallorian guards upgrade, not sure how much better a 2 star VG is
  • Crystal&Silk--No boost here unless the Orc Warrior 2 star unit is better than pally/treant?
  • Scrolls&Dust--The 50% faster training grounds is easily the best military thing to happen in the chapter
3 provinces with about an 11% drop
4 provinces with about a 20% drop
2 provinces with about a 22% gain
-------------
Overall a 13% drop
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
I also know something changed with the research on Inno's part. I know they forced us to go back and do the research that had been optional at the time. I have no doubt about that. I remember player confusion when exclamation points Inno put on the chapter icons didn't go away after the skipped research was done.

You are partially correct, the biggest issue was poor communication from inno. From memory there was only 1 tech that was optional that became compulsory which was a squad size tech, no clue why they did that. They did make 1 compulsory one optional though which only helped if you hadn't got to it yet.

The majority of the other techs that were optional that later required research were part of the change to the combat system and were new technologes like banshee for example. Inno had mentioned the techs had to be done this way. It was the same for the wonders, due to the tech tree having pre-requisites for research it was easier to put in a tech as optional and make sure it was working well before making it compulsory. Had they made it compulsory first and found a major bug that needed them to pull the tech out it would have been a serious problem. So the approach was known from around the time of wonders that this is what would happen but inno didn't have the communication options then that they do now. Thankfully they have made some improvements in that space.

I believe that is an intentional part of the design.
I am startled by the comments on what type of tourney is easiest/hardest...I've always found planks, steel and dust to be easiest!!

I know it is intentional now due to a comment relayed from the dev team. However I have never got the impression this was intended from the start and has only become that way after the fact. Either way we will never know unless they decide to tell us. They have made it clear we need to make a choice and that what seems like the best choice now may not be the best choice in the future. I never took that comment to mean they would change the system but simply that things in the game change from time to time. Like over scouting was good, then bad, now reasonable, and a bunch of other things that have changed over time.

Planks and dust are commonly called hard as they are the light melee key unit weeks and the losses are higher than normal. If you manage not to get as many losses I would be interested to hear what you do. I have never seen anyone say steel is hard although I am sure someone has at some point just like some say the mage weeks (gems and marble) are hard. I think these are more a function of a players approach, unit choices, position in tech tree and wonders (least impact). Race also has a slight impact but it balances out in my opinion and not that major an impact.
 

Deborah M

Oh Wise One
Mycan you are right. Thank you for jogging my memory :) It was when the battles were changed. The other one I think people had to go back on was the Magic Academy. It hadn't occurred to me that research could be skipped in the beginning so I only had to go back on 1 squad size and the Banshee which was the one that the exclamation point didn't go away. I know that there was a lot of consternation over the battle changes so I think some saw going back to skipped ones like pouring salt in an open wound. Since I didn't battle then it didn't make much difference to me. I personally think the battle change that you can hover over the troops to see who is good against whom was a huge improvement. Since I wasn't into battling and still am not a fan of battling I am sure that improvement saves me a whole lot of troops!
 

DeletedUser1108

Guest
Planks and dust are commonly called hard as they are the light melee key unit weeks and the losses are higher than normal. If you manage not to get as many losses I would be interested to hear what you do. I have never seen anyone say steel is hard although I am sure someone has at some point just like some say the mage weeks (gems and marble) are hard. I think these are more a function of a players approach, unit choices, position in tech tree and wonders (least impact). Race also has a slight impact but it balances out in my opinion and not that major an impact.
Dust in particular is mostly about the dogs and what I call the Bee Babes, secondary is golums and blossom mages, I only auto-fight the first two rounds, after that I do it myself unless it is an easy automatic, but I enjoy manual fighting and don't begrudge the time involved...then again I only keep 2 cities alive these days and my Eworld city only functions in temp duty...I visit a fs for a week or two, bang the tourneys and trade, then go back into hibernation...Felyndral is my only full time city. When you have only one place to worry about, manual fighting to minimize losses is no big deal; I function on the 'one less face' theory, 1 dead guy is better than 3 damaged - I focus on the dangerous folks exclusively in the beginning, pick off the annoyances in the endgame.
 
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Mykan

Oh Wise One
I personally think the battle change that you can hover over the troops to see who is good against whom was a huge improvement.

Sure was, I believe it was from player feedback which is why our feedback is so important. I know the help on battles in-game came directly from a player suggestion. The biggest issue I have with combat now is chapters 2-4 which might take years yet to get any change :( my only other issue is the equalising of tournaments based on squad sizes but I can't see that changing based on player feedback, only in-house metrics I think will influence it.

I only auto-fight the first two rounds, after that I do it myself unless it is an easy automatic, but I enjoy manual fighting and don't begrudge the time involved.

This might be the reason. I haven't checked but I expect losses in the first 2 rounds would be pretty even across the board or small enough not to notice.These are the rounds you either have an advantage or are equal (ignoring wonder benefits). I think the differences become far more apparent when the enemy has the advantage. I auto-fight to round 6 on all provinces, one of my fellowships tracks tournament participation and I can see a dip in my scores every time in dust and scroll provinces. I fight my rounds based on my armies, so more losses means I do less rounds and thus less points. I am very keen for the new elemental wonder to see how it effects these tournaments, it however is a long way away for most players.
 

DeletedUser1108

Guest
Sure was, I believe it was from player feedback which is why our feedback is so important. I know the help on battles in-game came directly from a player suggestion. The biggest issue I have with combat now is chapters 2-4 which might take years yet to get any change :( my only other issue is the equalising of tournaments based on squad sizes but I can't see that changing based on player feedback, only in-house metrics I think will influence it.



This might be the reason. I haven't checked but I expect losses in the first 2 rounds would be pretty even across the board or small enough not to notice.These are the rounds you either have an advantage or are equal (ignoring wonder benefits). I think the differences become far more apparent when the enemy has the advantage. I auto-fight to round 6 on all provinces, one of my fellowships tracks tournament participation and I can see a dip in my scores every time in dust and scroll provinces. I fight my rounds based on my armies, so more losses means I do less rounds and thus less points. I am very keen for the new elemental wonder to see how it effects these tournaments, it however is a long way away for most players.
I'm pretty stubborn about battles, too many times I've actually lost an auto fight then gone back and had a minimal loss fighting them myself. It isn't always true, but often enuff.
 

DeletedUser12171

Guest
I'm tired of the game, and I'm tired of general, incessant, whinging. Best of luck to all who still enjoy playing.

Lol I'm glad somebody came out to say this. Constructive feedback notwithstanding, incessant whinging is what a lot of the "feedback" looks like on these boards. As someone (i can't remember who) mentioned in discussing the last FA, the happy ones are not on these boards, they are playing the game. I'm glad I'm happily playing the game most of the time!
 

The Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
@Mykan: Well, to be fair, the marble & gems tournaments are pretty damn hard for Elf players, since you don't actually get a usable mage unit until you unlock the Merc Camp & Blossom Mage in Fairies! ;)

Thanks so much Inno for nerf-nuking the Sorceress to the point you may as well just delete her as a playable unit!:rolleyes:
 

Thistleknot

Well-Known Member
I must be an unusual case. I research everything that I can. I have currently conquered 430 provinces. I continuously scout, but did slow down once I completed ring 14. I use auto-fight and catering as necessary, with the occasional manual fight. I tend to be fairly successful with fighting in the tournaments as well as in the world. I'm not worried about the cost of troops since I tend to have my supplies maxed out. I'm not worried about catering if I have the urge since my lowest goods at the 2 million mark. I try keep a steady production of goods and trades flowing. I admit that I have used too much space in my city for Ancient Wonders. I currently have 17 of 20 available AWs, mainly cause I'm an AW junkie. I would love to have more space, but I enjoy the challenge of trying to fit everything in my city. I have never spent diamonds on expansions and have no plans to do so in the future.

The biggest complaints in my fellowship tend to be that people have a hard time researching, upgrading, and doing tournaments. We usually just tell them to back off the tournaments if it becomes too much. Contributing less may mean we only open up four chests instead of five, but the individuals are in a better position which will strengthen the fellowship in the long run.

I understand that people may be upset about some of the mechanics of the game or some of the decisions the developers have made. I have things that I question as well. The current conditions of the tournament and province battles are just a culmination of changes that have been made in the past. Some of it is good and some of it is bad. The issue with chat dropping out seems to be resolved, but I do wish it would work for me while I'm on my work computer. Not sure what the complaint is about for rebooting. I haven't experienced this issue. Overall I do not see a reason that people would be leaving in droves currently.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
@Mykan: Well, to be fair, the marble & gems tournaments are pretty damn hard for Elf players, since you don't actually get a usable mage unit until you unlock the Merc Camp & Blossom Mage in Fairies! ;)

She is a very good fighter and I have no issues with her on my elven towns. In fact I have lost fights using the specialist units that the sorceress did easily and other fights where including her also turned a loss into an easy win. Do I lose more units than humans in matble and gem fights, yes, do I suffer less losses than a human in a planks and elixir (Heavy melee) tournament, yes. Are the losses large in comparison to humans or a light melee fight, no.

Personally I think people are too hung up on what the sorceress was rather than what she is. While I occasionally see people talk about the cannoneer compared to a golem you don't see anywhere near the complaints about them like you do the sorceress. Both are good units in the right context (like any other unit).
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
She is a very good fighter and I have no issues with her on my elven towns.
Amen. There are some fights where any mage unit is going to suffer an attack in the opening round. At least the Sorc has some HP to absorb the damage. Way too much hate on the Sorc (and not enough on the Banshee :) )
 
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