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    Your Elvenar Team

Up and Down Round and Round

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
If you've been following things lately we've been given a bunch of opportunities to vote on various proposals. Which, in my mind is a good thing. However, I've noticed four things about the voting.

1) It some times comes after a little as a week of discussion.
2) The original post may not be, once the discussion is had, what the original poster is thinking in part or in detail at the end of the discussion.
3) It's usually "up or down" -- meaning it's an all or nothing vote.
4) Once the poll is posted you aren't allowed to suggest changes. (I know, because I did and "oops, shouldn't have done that.")

On the first point I do wonder if 7 days is enough. While there are a number of posters, like myself, who are pretty consistent (at least I have been lately), there are others who come only once every week or two. Thus, asking for a poll too quickly may not be getting as wide a set of opinions as you could. I would suggest 14 days or 3 days since the last comment was made or things are getting repetitious -- whichever is longer but with a maximum of some kind.

Along with that it is a great thing to vote, but if you are voting on the original post you may not be voting on what the original poster wants after the discussion. A discussion is about modifying others beliefs and having our own modified so that, one hopes, the best beliefs come to the surface. I would suggest that if we are voting on the original post we don't need the discussion because we can't really incorporate any changes that discussion has made in the mind or the original poster or anybody else. I would suggest that, before the poll is posted, the original poster is allowed to redo the original post with changes he/she wishes (or none if there are none), or design the poll so that the various aspects are voted on...see the next paragraph.

The use of the "up or down" vote leaves voters in the awkward position of rejecting the original idea if there is even one thing in it they do not like or accepting the whole thing even if it has things they don't like. Perhaps the original post should be polled as to the aspects of it, rather than completely up or down. For instance, I may, in my original post, say I'd like a building with 12 slots in it for automatically storing building while I move them. Call it a Building Warehouse. I may say it should be 6x6, cost X diamonds, need to be fed, etc... etc.... If the voter reacts to the "12 slots" with "whoa, that's way too many," he or she may vote down the idea of a "Building Warehouse" even though they love the idea. Breaking down the question to the basic idea and the various aspects of what you like/dislike would be a better poll and garner a lot more information.

Once the poll is posted you don't have the ability to suggest changes. This is an okay rule, but probably unnecessary. If you include the "final form" of the original post in the poll people would know what they were voting on even if the discussion was long and complex.

Just some more ideas.

AJ
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Since @Xelenia took over as head moderator, she set the rules for voting and she is the only one allowed to put a valid poll on a suggestion. And it was her choice to make all of them a simple yes/no vote, so you may want to take this directly up with her.
 

Steelhail

Member
I appreciate your bringing this up @ajqtrz and your ideas here.

Regarding alternatives to the "up and down" vote (if I'm rightly understanding your recommendation on breaking down the ideas): one challenge might be that with the kind of added specificity of a "line-item veto" (if you will), it might take more work for moderators to figure out to break it up into multiple poll questions (would the moderator figure out which ones were most important? Hear from the individual poster what the best polling categories were? etc.).. My understanding is that right now an OP can set up an internal poll before the final vote to get some of that feedback--though not for the final vote, obviously.

Regarding "up and down" in the final vote, I wonder if a large part of the problem is that we are voting in the categories of 1.not in favor or 2.in favor; by contrast, the development team responding to our suggestions probably thinks something along the lines of 1.no, never in a million years, 2.yes, let's do this asap, and 3.something to consider/maybe if we have the time. So voters may make different guesses about how their binary yes/no vote will fit into the designers' 1, 2, or 3 categories.

This leads to people (or at least me) thinking, "I like this idea, but not at the expense of working on other things, so do I vote yes? Do I vote no? Do I just not vote at all and hope designers gauge my lack of participation as meaning the support isn't as overwhelming as in other polls?"

So here's a suggestion on the up/down issue, and if it's better for me just to make a separate thread (I don't want to hijack yours) and there's interest, I can do that. But maybe a simple modification in final vote to create three categories, "No," "Yes/designers should consider this," and "yes/designers should prioritize this!" 1.Voters would have a better sense of what they're conveying with their vote, 2.voters would more accurately convey their information, and 3.designers would be able to make more informed decisions. After all, if designers are trying to compare/prioritize two proposals with the same number of "yes" votes, their decision might be better informed by knowing whether one got more "enthusiastic" yesses than the other did. 4.While not allowing a "line-item veto," saying you're in favor of designers "considering" something doesn't mean you're endorsing every aspect of that proposal.
 
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Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Regarding the actual "yes/no" vote, my understanding is that the idea is supposed to be so specific that just a yes or no is all that is needed, not a "yes but" or a "no but". Suggestions are supposed to be single, simple things, not complex ideas, or if they do not start out that way, they are supposed to be streamlined to that point during the discussion before a poll and voting are added to the suggestion.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
by contrast, the development team responding to our suggestions probably thinks something along the lines of 1.no, never in a million years, 2.yes, let's do this asap, and 3.something to consider/maybe if we have the time.

I tend to vote positively in any situation where the game mechanics are simplified/streamlined in a way that makes it easier for the developers to introduce new features. For example, take a suggestion allows the world map on browser to be given a quick visit interface. The more uniformly the system operates the more ideas the developers can put into action (for instance in this case, perhaps a hidden reward somewhere in your world map visits). Whether the developer ideas are positive or negative is unknown, but the more freedom the developers have with a system that behaves more uniformly, the more complexity can be added later.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
During the discussions, the OP can/should update or incorporate items from the discussion that they agree with, as I and others have done. However, once the OP has asked for a poll and it has been added, that top post is what is being voted on, not any of the following discussion. Only that first post is passed to the developers as I understand it. Xelenia has said in a few cases she has fixed the wording or put it in more the form expressed by the forum guild. Any comments after the vote have started are fine, but they are not what is being explicitly voted on. If they would change the concept or be another one, that needs to be a separate thread for discussion.

If the idea is a new game concept, it should not be too inflexible or specific. After all, it's a concept, not an implementation. Interface changes on the other hand typically are more specific, but leave certain details to the developers.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
2) The original post may not be, once the discussion is had, what the original poster is thinking in part or in detail at the end of the discussion.
The original poster goes into their original message and edits it to make sure it reflects all the changes they've made based on the discussion.
Along with that it is a great thing to vote, but if you are voting on the original post you may not be voting on what the original poster wants after the discussion.
For instance, I may, in my original post, say I'd like a building with 12 slots in it for automatically storing building while I move them. Call it a Building Warehouse. I may say it should be 6x6, cost X diamonds, need to be fed, etc... etc.... If the voter reacts to the "12 slots" with "whoa, that's way too many," he or she may vote down the idea of a "Building Warehouse" even though they love the idea.
In your example, if you failed to go into the original message and edit it with the changes you agreed would make it more likely to be seen as a favorable suggestion prior to signalling it was edited and ready for a poll...I don't know what to tell you.

Xelenia is the first forum mod (please remember they are volunteers, not paid staff) to even attempt to create a formal pathway to the devs for player ideas/suggestions from any forum other than beta. I cringe every time I see a post in this section that is just a complaint disguised as a suggestion or is a suggestion that has been laid out in the Forum Guide for Ideas/Suggestions as one that will not be entertained by the devs at all. That's just one more thing for her to weed out to get to any relevant posts that have carefully followed the guidelines. I would really hate to lose this opportunity, but if folks continue to try to make it more complicated and time consuming, that is exactly what I fear will happen.
 

Steelhail

Member
(As a side-point: Even though this thread is about voting, I don’t think it’s meant to be categorized as “voting” (which is the call for an actual vote) but as “forum” (which is described as “forum-related ideas”).)

Xelenia is the first forum mod (please remember they are volunteers, not paid staff) to even attempt to create a formal pathway to the devs for player ideas/suggestions from any forum other than beta. I cringe every time I see a post in this section that is just a complaint disguised as a suggestion ... I would really hate to lose this opportunity, but if folks continue to try to make it more complicated and time consuming, that is exactly what I fear will happen.

This is an excellent point—I am grateful not simply to have a clear structure for a proposal to be heard by designers, but then having that same clarity when I’m voting on someone else’s proposal, and Xelenia wholly deserves that shout-out. Though I didn't take aj’s post as criticizing the proposal structure/outline but instead questioning how best posters can finalize their proposal and optimize the voting procedure. Maybe a helpful process can become even better, without making things tougher on moderators?

On the first point I do wonder if 7 days is enough.... While there are a number of posters, like myself, who are pretty consistent (at least I have been lately), there are others who come only once every week or two...I would suggest 14 days or 3 days since the last comment was made or things are getting repetitious -- whichever is longer but with a maximum of some kind.

If you’re trying to avoid future situations like the late responses to the “send in commanders” thread, I don’t think this would address it. The last post before the vote was May 24th; Xelenia opened up a poll to vote on June 18th, and then people later submitted concerns. I don’t think a longer window for responses would have helped; more recent posts displace older posts, so if a lot of people submit ideas, and someone only checks once a week, they can miss those ideas lower on the list. Or voters ignore it at the time and suddenly see, “Oops, this thing came to a vote, I better read this thing!” It’s a shame that happened for that thread, but I’m not sure what would have helped.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I think for any suggestion to have a chance of succeeding it needs to be simple and clear cut which basically can't come down to anything but yes or no. (And this is coming from someone who created a entire new mechanic for events and got 27:1 in favor on beta, only to have it vanish, as well as a new guest race, which had broad support on both US and then beta servers, but the beta forum mod refused to even put a poll on it because they felt it wasn't a direction the designer would be interested in going.

Complex ideas are death. the more complex they are, the more someone isn't going to like some aspect, and the more chance the developers will misunderstand or be unable to implement even if it reaches them.

I pretty much always ask at least two or three times if anyone sees any flaws, including in a separate thread in the general forum, to try to drum up pros and cons.

As things stand, I won't ask for a poll until at least 10 people have commented, and most of them positively (preferably at least 10 positive comments, since an idea needs to have 10 more yes votes than no votes to satisfy the criteria for forwarding. I've let ideas die fora while, rather than put them to a vote I didn't think was solid.

I think it might be worth asking Xelenia, or whoever, to include a third option "Could use more work" which lets people sit on the fence if they don't think it's bad enough to reject, but don't think it's good enough to submit yet.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
I think it might be worth asking Xelenia, or whoever, to include a third option "Could use more work" which lets people sit on the fence if they don't think it's bad enough to reject, but don't think it's good enough to submit yet.
This would be the only alternative option I could see working.

The point of the discussion leading up to a poll is the get all these variables and alternative ideas & opinions out so that the orginal suggestion can be finalized for a poll. Otherwise it does seem that Xelenia's work to get a clear path to devs would become muddy. If a poll goes up with all these alternative options...I'd be inclined to think it hadn't finished with the discussion part yet and perhaps the original poster would like to take the poll down and keep working the idea some more. In any case...any developer reading the forwarded proposal could take just a fragment of the idea and run with it....there is nothing in this process which promises the suggestion gets implemented as suggested, or implemented at all. Only that it gets through. So I'd rather see things kept as simple as possible.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
If you’re trying to avoid future situations like the late responses to the “send in commanders” thread, I don’t think this would address it. The last post before the vote was May 24th; Xelenia opened up a poll to vote on June 18th, and then people later submitted concerns. I don’t think a longer window for responses would have helped; more recent posts displace older posts, so if a lot of people submit ideas, and someone only checks once a week, they can miss those ideas lower on the list. Or voters ignore it at the time and suddenly see, “Oops, this thing came to a vote, I better read this thing!” It’s a shame that happened for that thread, but I’m not sure what would have helped.

Yep, you are right. However, my mistake MAY be understandable. The previous was, indeed, May 24th. Her post was "Thursday" at some time. I took it to mean the Thursday after the 24th of May. I know that was sort of ....uh.....dumb?, but that's what I did. Sorry.

And the "needs more work" idea is a great and simple alternative to my original, probably too complex, option.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
We could also (as in either additional-to, or instead of) some of these ideas, ask the mods to consider modifying their process, so that instead of opening a poll on the discussion thread, when the OP says ready. they duplicate the OP into a locked thread, so the voting happens there, with a link to the discussion thread. It allows the conversation to continue more freely, while clarifying what's being voted on.
 

Xelenia

Ex-Team Member
include a third option "Could use more work" which lets people sit on the fence if they don't think it's bad enough to reject, but don't think it's good enough to submit yet.

I think, adding this as an option will not be too bad. I was hoping to see more discussion, but it seems the OP is not entertaining this much :p
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
@ajqtrz
Would you be opposed to changing the original post to just suggest the 'could use more work' option for voting? If you are opposed, I'd be willing start a new thread just recommending that. (Since it's unlikely @Ashrem wants to take charge of any idea/suggestion:p)
 

michmarc

Well-Known Member
Although since this is an idea that affects now Xelenia runs the forum (rather than something that gets sent to developers), she may decide a vote on voting isn't needed and will just go with it.

[But I think a "needs more work" option would be a good thing. I would have voted that way, instead of "no", on the "send in the commander" topic, for example.]
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
Does anything ever really happen because of a vote? Not in reality and it is very likely that unless there is something in it for Inno (aka diamond purchases) it won't here either. Money drives the world of gaming just like it does in our real lives, so as much as I have voted on proposals, I don't see any real response. As I have been told in the past, and not very nicely, unless Inno says it, thinks it and can exploit it, it will not happen. Of course, that is my rephrase of some of the vitriol that has been directed at me. And, even when they make an appeasement through the forum mods, it isn't official.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
@ajqtrz
Would you be opposed to changing the original post to just suggest the 'could use more work' option for voting? If you are opposed, I'd be willing start a new thread just recommending that. (Since it's unlikely @Ashrem wants to take charge of any idea/suggestion:p)

Nope. I'm okay with the general direction of these suggestions. A new post with a more focused idea would be fine. Go for it.

AJ
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I think it might be worth asking Xelenia, or whoever, to include a third option "Could use more work" which lets people sit on the fence if they don't think it's bad enough to reject, but don't think it's good enough to submit yet.
… and Xelenia's response to it:
I think, adding this as an option will not be too bad.
I concur.

This post isn't about the polls or voting, but it's about the Ideas and Suggestions Forum Guide, so this seems like a good place to put it. The guide contains:
3. Include why your idea would be beneficial. What problem(s) would it resolve, if any?
4. Include why your idea may negatively affect the game. What is a workaround, if any?
These have turned into Pros and Cons or Benefits and Downsides. I'd like to see a third added: Considerations. Everything doesn't neatly fit into those two categories.

I've also thought presenting those 5 items in more of a template of how the idea should be presented might be a better, not that it'd have to be followed explicitly, but it might help the OP organize their presentation in a better form, hopefully allowing them to be clearer from the beginning. This pretty much follows your list, but I think shows it in more of an organizational format.
-----------------
If you want to share an idea, please follow the following suggestions, this allows others to better understand your idea and helps them to have a better discussion about your ideas. Therefore, it is strongly suggested using this format when presenting your idea:
  • Thread Title: Short and snappy description with the appropriate prefix. This is your chance to draw people to the topic.
  • Summary: Short summary of the idea. It should only be a few lines.
  • Details: Explain more fully what the idea is and how it would work. If possible, use visual aids to help clarify the idea. Try to keep this as short and precise as possible. Include new interfaces which will be needed to implement it. If there are questions you have about the idea you wish others to help with, consider putting them in a post right after this initial one to help stimulate discussion in a desired and constructive direction. Also, give personal antidotes there. Don't clutter the idea here. Remember this is what goes to the developers. Keep in mind you are talking to them, not the people who will be discussing it in this thread.
  • Benefits or Pros: List of why this idea helps game play, what it will resolve, etc.
  • Downsides or Cons: List of any negative affects to the game or players with possible workarounds, effort of implementation if beyond what seems to be trivial, etc.
  • Considerations: Things that aren't truly a benefit or downside, but may help the developers see affects of the idea that may or may not be a direction they wish to take the game.
Not all ideas will conform exactly to the pattern given here, but please follow it where you can. A consistent presentation format to the developers is desired.
 

Xelenia

Ex-Team Member
it might help the OP organize their presentation in a better form, hopefully allowing them to be clearer from the beginning.

Done :)



To some extent :p

If you want to share an idea, please follow the following suggestions, this allows others to better understand your idea and helps them to have a better discussion about your ideas. Therefore, it is strongly suggested to use this format when presenting your idea :

  • Thread Title: Make it short, clear, and descriptive with the appropriate prefix
  • Summary: Give a short summary of your idea (you can go into more detail after).
  • Details:
    • Explain more fully what the idea is and how it would work.
    • Consider adding visual aids, which can help in understanding what exactly you mean.
    • Do not clutter the idea. Remember this is what goes to the developers and it is important to keep in mind you are talking to them and not the people who will be discussing the idea and concept within your thread.
  • Benefits / Pros: Include why your idea would be beneficial. How will your idea help the gameplay for everyone, and not just you? What problem(s) would it resolve, if any?
  • Downsides / Cons: Include why your idea may negatively affect the game or the players. Will it require extreme implementation effort? What is a workaround, if any?
  • Miscellaneous: If there are questions you have about the idea that you wish others to help with, consider putting them in a post right after the initial post to help stimulate discussion in a desired and constructive direction.
Not all ideas will conform exactly to the pattern given here, but please follow it where you can. A consistent presentation format to the developers is desired.
 
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