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    Your Elvenar Team

Useful Ancient Wonders

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
I am sure this has come up several times over the years, but with more Wonders now, I will ask it again. :)

I am curious if there is a general consensus on what AWs every city should build, maybe on a chapter by chapter breakdown, no matter the focus of the city, since I know some choices will vary whether there is a military, or non-military, or a balanced focus.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
ToS if you are in chapters 1-5 (and then keep it until your scouts take more than 3 days)
EE always (unless you have 100% magic workshops)
PT if you can collect 3x or more per day
GA after chapter 4 or 5 (whenever it gives more pop per square than a house)
MtH if you have a 2:2:2 build or more then it's a must-have.

The rest depend on variables.
 
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mucksterme

Oh Wise One
I build them all
it's a disease
can't stop

but

Some to consider that Soggy won't mention because he is annoyingly non violent
Needles, Monastery, Forge and Abby - they all give various fighter buffs
And I also like the Portal Buff you get from the Bumble Bee

the fun thing about AWs
once you find one that is really useful, you need to devote a lot of time and resources to make it as high a level as possible
that way the devs can then come in with no notice and nerf the **** out of it
 

DeletedUser2207

Guest
EE depends on playstyle a bit, I think - if you have magic workshops and run PoP spells on them all the time, EE isn't going to be as useful. But compared to standard workshops not running PoP spells all the time, even a level 1 EE will save space because it doesn't have any population or culture tied up in it

Besides Soggy's list, I would add Martial Monastary / Sanctuary if you do any fighting at all
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Really depends on your playing style. I could not possibly disagree more with "EE always." If I was starting over, I wouldn't build that one EVER...
I don't know if I would call having 100% magic buildings a "playstyle" I mean by that reckoning you could say you never need any wonders, just buy everything with diamonds. I'll edit the post though
Some to consider that Soggy won't mention because he is annoyingly non violent
The original post asked specifically for no military, and only wonders that suit every playstyle.

For military, the MM, Needles, and SSS are all must-haves. Most of the rest are good too, and realistically you should get all military wonders at some point.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
The Tome is one I have been wondering about. I still have mine and my scouts are now hitting the 50-hour mark. And I am almost never desperate for the KP from it anymore.
Just do a quick check, at 50h scouts you can still send every 3 days without setting an alarm, and compare the supplies from that vs your workshop production.
So ToS supplies /54 = supplies per square per day
((Workshop 3h production *x) + (workshop 9h production *y)) /50 = supplies per day
x is how many 3h runs you do
y is how many 9 h runs you do

If they are close, then the ToS wins because it doesn't factor in the KP at all.
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
I find it easier to say what not to build.
I skip Watchtower Ruins. Its nice, but culture isn't that hard to come by, and its not really "enough" culture (especially later in the game). Plus, it can't be buffed with neighborly help. So not a bad use of space, and I'll probably build one at some point when my other AWs are level 10 plus. But not now.

Thrones of the High Men is trash. Unless someone is a diamond player with max expansions, or unless they're a top 100 player in the last few chapters, I think less of anyone I see with this in their city. Harsh I know, but its a really terrible wonder.

Enar's Embassy seems nice, but its sooo inefficient. Broken shards aren't that hard to come by (especially 1 per week!!), and the initial mana per scout is chump change. Plus, that assumes I'm timing my scout timers for when I need mana. No chance that's happening. So a good bit of the mana is likely to decay. For 28 squares, I expect a lot more. This one I hear the most arguments for stuff like "well when you get it to level 11 its actually great!" Well that's true of all the AWs (except Thrones), and it cost you 3K KP (guesstimate) to get there...

'Meh' wonders:
Maze and Sunset Towers I lump together. I don't need the decay benefit, due to my own city layout, but I can see how you can build a city that utilizes these benefits.
Lighthouse of Good Neighbors. Again, I can see this being powerful, but it doesn't match my playstyle. I don't rely on EEs much, and I don't want to put a burden on my FS-mates to bless the correct mana/culture building. As someone who does visits via mobile, I don't want to expect anything out of a stranger that I wouldn't expect out of someone else.

The military AWs I consider to be mandatory, but I also can't fathom playing 'no fighting.' But there's solid debate (which I'm happy to have) about which ones should be prioritized/levelled.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
Since AWs are chapter-locked, a lot of AWs end up having their usefulness kinda marginalized by just how much you have to put into playing the game before you're even allowed to build them. For this reason, IMO the only truly good AWs are the earliest ones you have access to - AW benefits in general are fairly strong, even moreso when your city is small/rapidly growing and you can really put these effects to use. AWs also tend to get larger as you move up through chapters, which again offsets the usefulness of their bonuses. For example, despite the fact that Needles of the Tempest and Victory Towers both provide a military unit boost along with a speed increase for one of the training buildings (both of which increase at the same rate per level on each AW), the Victory Towers come far later in gameplay, and is additionally more than 50% larger, which also means it's more expensive to level up. I still think both are worth having; like @Tedious above I consider all military-boosting AWs to be extremely important, but this is a shining example of how AWs kinda get less efficient as the unlock chapter for them increases.

That long rambling aside, I personally build every wonder. The ones I feel provide me the least benefit as a player at the end of the research tree are, in order of unlock:

The Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse - The goods just aren't a very significant amount compared to what my normal manufactories are putting out.
Thrones of the High Men - This one is definitely just a showpiece for those who prioritize ranking, the culture it provides is far too inefficient to actually be useful.
Enar's Embassy - While I have made use of the mana bonus from scouting, putting normal mana production in this large footprint is much easier to work around and rely on.
Maze of the Dark Matter - Similar to Enar's Embassy, normal mana buildings are probably going to be a lot more useful for just about everybody. However, this building does effectively raise your mana 'cap' which may in some very niche cases be necessary over simply increasing production (like the very expensive Main Hall upgrades)
Elvenar Trade Center - I don't know how it is for others, but the seed production is junk for me. I'm also not a heavy trader/caterer, so I don't gather much benefit from the MM increase either - I spend most of my Academy hours running PoP spells because supplies are my biggest need
Sunset Towers - similar to the Bell Spire/Lighthouse, there just isn't enough of an effect for me. I collect so many seeds just from my Trader every day that my stockpile far outstrips any cost that arises (my seed cap is right around 130k).
Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood.- the effects are nice on paper, but it just doesn't really work in practice. If the mana bonus was either passive or applied at all times when EE was active on a building instead of requiring both EE and NH, it'd be worlds better. But as it is, you have to put your EE spells on buildings that are less efficient for culture in the hopes that visitors break their conditioning of aiding only the highest-culture buildings and go for mana producers instead. Too hit or miss for me.

I consider all other AWs to be worth their cost and space.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
@qaccy I agree with your whole post except maybe the Elvenar Trade center. You have 171 AW levels, but many players in Elementals have far fewer, some as low as 50, and if you haven't scouted an extra 100 or so provinces your seeds production really doesn't keep up with chapter 12 demands.
When I built and rushed my ETC to level 6 I almost doubled my seeds production, and it made all the difference in chapter 12.
That said, chapter 13 was a joke and almost required no seeds, and events gave me great seed buildings so the ETC dropped in value quite drastically.
I'm really on the fence about that wonder. It's probably best to score powerful event seed buildings in halflings and keep them through elementals than to build the ETC, but that requires some luck.
 

DeletedUser9601

Guest
@qaccy I agree with your whole post except maybe the Elvenar Trade center. You have 171 AW levels, but many players in Elementals have far fewer, some as low as 50, and if you haven't scouted an extra 100 or so provinces your seeds production really doesn't keep up with chapter 12 demands.
When I built and rushed my ETC to level 6 I almost doubled my seeds production, and it made all the difference in chapter 12.
That said, chapter 13 was a joke and almost required no seeds, and events gave me great seed buildings so the ETC dropped in value quite drastically.
I'm really on the fence about that wonder. It's probably best to score powerful event seed buildings in halflings and keep them through elementals than to build the ETC, but that requires some luck.
One benefit to ETC that makes me actually want to level it is that MM is seriously awesome for Elementals and Amuni. For Elementals, I ran 1 T4 factory with MM non-stop; for Amuni 1 T5 with MM. And it meant that I was never waiting for sentient goods (and could even have enough left over to either toss up 3-star trades for quick exchanges, or help push FS members along). Having a slightly stronger MM is nice icing on the cake.

I think if I didn't have MM running, I would have either had a lot more downtime, or probably needed another sentient factory.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I did note that the ETC was just not really useful for me personally. The Trader/AW levels more than carry all of my seed needs, and primarily fighting through tournaments diminishes my want for goods as well. Even regarding sentient goods; I went through Amuni pretty darn slow (I only just finished it a couple weeks ago), and ultimately that was because I was lazy with getting the Temple complex built to get the production buildings upgraded. Sentient goods weren't the bottleneck this time around, even with only one manufactory and no MM usage!
 

mucksterme

Oh Wise One
Enar's Embassy - While I have made use of the mana bonus from scouting, putting normal mana production in this large footprint is much easier to work around and rely on.
Maze of the Dark Matter - Similar to Enar's Embassy, normal mana buildings are probably going to be a lot more useful for just about everybody. However, this building does effectively raise your mana 'cap' which may in some very niche cases be necessary over simply increasing production (like the very expensive Main Hall upgrades)

A recommendation on the Embassy
If you are one of those strange people who do not collect every AW ( inconceivable )
And
You have Enar for the mana bonus
Once you get the chance replace it with the Dragon Abbey
By the time you get the Abbey you'll probably have hundreds of spells you'll never use
So if you get in a Mana crunch all you have to do is apply a bunch of PoP or Goods spells.
My Abbey is level 4 and gives 3520 Mana per spell.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
@mucksterme That's exactly how I paid almost all of the mana costs for both Elementals and Amuni. The effectiveness of this does depend a lot on what level your Academy's at, though - someone who rushes through tech but doesn't have the advantage of regularly making it to the end of the tech tree ahead of new chapters may not be able to stockpile enough spells without an upgraded Academy. Still would be a great bonus though! Especially for those MH upgrades.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
I am one of those who generally collects them all, or would like to. Sadly, certain ones make it hard to justify and the prime offender is thrones of high men. I have a higher than normal number of AW's and I still can't justify this wonder in my town. It was a while since I ran the maths but I think I needed 250+ wonder levels and like a much higher than lvl 1 thrones to even start considering it. Then each chapter it needs more attention as culture per square buildings improve faster than I can keep this one effective. At this stage I would need some spare space to feel I could waste, which I don't thanks to crafting. :)

Wonders on the whole are specific to your style and Soggy's first post is a great summary of some that cross over most styles of play. I disagree with ToS but I am a fan of it for my style and the GA might take even until dwarves before it is any good for population (depends on your town).

Lots of goods posts and points above. I will just highlight some different ways of considering a couple wonders.
Watchtower Ruins. Its nice, but culture isn't that hard to come by, and its not really "enough" culture (especially later in the game). Plus, it can't be buffed with neighborly help.
This along with the sanctuary/monastery (both have 1 benefit in common) can provide significant culture boost despite not getting a buff. I forge the exact % but I am getting close to 50% of my culture from this AW benefit. So much that I am able to reconsider my approach to my culture and event buildings. I also need a whole lot less buildings for culture. This means I can build event culture buildings with other effects like mana huts, valorian valors, grounds of orc strategist etc. for their non-culture benefits and still cover my culture needs.

The Great Bell Spire/Crystal Lighthouse - The goods just aren't a very significant amount compared to what my normal manufactories are putting out.
To me the main benefit of this building is the longer culture buff, the goods are just a bonus if you happen to do browser visits. Again this building can allow you to alter your strategy in respect to culture. It is a very scenario specific building in that respect, more than most wonders. The longer visits can be good if you have few visitors so the buffs hold longer allowing more buildings to be buffed. Or in the case of high visits can ensure a greater spread to smaller culture buildings so things like the lighthouse of good neighbourhood can be more effective.

Pay attention to the wonders that you have/want as there are groupings of wonders that can work really well together. Military wonders are obvious in their grouped benefits. The culture wonders have an increasing group and crossover between them. Then there is the heroes forge/pyramid of purification wonder, fantastic combination that works together.

Level 6 wonders are relatively cheap. With rare exception wonders at level 6+ are just going to shine. So pick the ones that suit your style and just heed the couple exceptions.
 

DeletedUser12171

Guest
Thrones of High Men

If you max this
And many other AWs

You get a ton of culture for it. Like 5x torrins or something
 
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