Weird Battles

[Moho]

I've always wanted to launch a thread about weird battles. I haven't put my plan into effect because, although I use a lot of fighting when I solve encounters, my military knowledge in this game is nothing but superficial. I can't invest time and effort to acquire certain skills that will only be useful in a game. And if I really had to do this (because say my life depended on it) I would choose a game like Go, or chess.

Anyway, back to the topic, since I fight my way to the top of the Spire in three different cities on a weekly basis I guess I'm bound to at least once in a while come across some weird situations, especially in multi-wave encounters - either because the encounters are designed to be difficult or because of my poor abilities. This week everything was pretty "normal," except the two-wave encounter below where... well, I don't know. My troops were nearly wiped out. One can see I used the Twilight Phoenix, so the number of troops still standing at the end of the fight must have been infinitesimal.

I am relieved and amused. I don't understand why I almost lost, and I didn't understand why I won.

 

[crackie]

Probably obstacles. You have all melee units selected.

 

[Moho]

Probably obstacles.

If there were obstacles that prevented my troops from doing their job properly (because when I assessed the enemy it seemed my units were going to win easily), then I wonder if they were the same obstacles as in the first wave battle. At the end of the first wave battle, there were very few injuries on my side. Only one of the Axe Barbarians seemed to be affected and I used a Vitality Surge instant to refresh the guy again.

And then everyone was almost dead at the end of the second wave battle. It really came out of nowhere, or at least that was my impression.

 

[Gkyr]

Don't wonder. In multi-wave Spire battles, the obstacles are always the same for each wave.
Also, a complete post-mortem of the battle would require knowing more about your battle AWs, expiring buildings and crackie is right, you were all melee against all ranged. You might have won because your troop health was very good, comparatively.

 

[Moho]

ou might have won because your troop health was very good, comparatively.

I wish I knew what the enemy lineup was in the first wave battle, when my troops fared so well.

Anyway, the mystery seems to be solved. There were obstacles, but the Sanctuary, Dwarven Armorer, and UUU conferred my troops enough vitality to survive the vicisitudes of the bad terrain.

There are other types of weird battles too. We'll see if I come across one of those next week.

 

[Gkyr]

There are other types of weird battles too. We'll see if I come across one of those next week.

It will be interesting to see what you share but details such as the health and attack values of both all of your troops and the oppo troops and the battle ratio displayed at the beginning of the fight, not to mention the types of squads involved all help review the carnage.

I can't invest time and effort to acquire certain skills that will only be useful in a game. And if I really had to do this (because say my life depended on it) I would choose a game like Go, or chess.

Some of us parse this game quite closely and I cannot claim to be one of the thorough ones.

 

[crackie]

Axe Barbarians and their counterpart Sword Dancers are not great vs. mages in practice, even though on paper they look like it. Their movement is really low and as melee, they need to be right next to someone to swing at them. Short distance mages have very high mobility to run away and then it’s hard to chase them down (unless the mage is actually attacking your LM). Long distance mages stay in the back so you have to chase them down. It will take at least two turns to reach them. Since most people don’t have an infinite supply of the limited LM buff, it also takes more than one swing to kill a mage with a LM unit, even with a fed Fire Phoenix.

 

[Moho]

It will be interesting to see what you share but details such as the health and attack values of both all of your troops and the oppo troops and the battle ratio displayed at the beginning of the fight, not to mention the types of squads involved all help review the carnage.

True. And I usually know it's a weird battle to begin with. That's the kind of situation I have been planning to share, with all the necessary details.

This one, where my men (all but one in a thousand probably) suffered from sudden death, came out of nowhere. And it was kind of funny.

But that I think about it, some of the most serious casualties occur when I am supposed to send into battle a Light Melee and Heavy Melee combo. It may that the terrain always prevents them from performing as expected. I will think about it.

 

[Moho]

Axe Barbarians and their counterpart Sword Dancers are not great vs. mages in practice

I use them because they're cheap and so am I when I use my troops - I want to save as much as possible. I want to come up with the cheapest effective way to deal with the situation.

 

[BrinDarby]

I use them because they're cheap

I see you went with both training grounds and barracks troops.
I would've reversed what you sent.... ie- HM(barracks) & LM(TG)
The dogs can quicker attack the mages, and I can still train both
types simultainously. ( so they're cheap to me )

 

[crackie]

Send them to their deaths in the map provinces or early tourney. Multiple wave fights are not where you want to skimp, or you’ll just blow a stash of Vitality Surges anyway.

 

[Moho]

I see you went with both training grounds and barracks troops.

My human cities are chapter 6. My Valorian Guards come from the Triumph of the Tides and the Axe Barbarians come from the Dwarven Bulwark. They're (relatively) free resources which I am willing to sacrifice.

Before Axe Barbarians were offered for free by the Dwarven Bulwark I used to include only Cerberuses in my lineups. I am satisfied with the way my Axe Barbarians behave. I rarely lose any battle. And the problem is that from my experience Cerberuses die in great numbers. To such a large extent that most of the time my Training Grounds were busy training Cerberuses.

Right now I want to fill my Barracks and Training Grounds with units to the brim, which is why I use mainly units obtained from other sources like the Triumph of the Tides, Azure Stables, or Creepy Clinics.

 

[Gkyr]

But that I think about it, some of the most serious casualties occur when I am supposed to send into battle a Light Melee and Heavy Melee combo. It may that the terrain always prevents them from performing as expected. I will think about it.

As far as 'supposed' mandates: I think your paradigm that balances squad expense and squad effectiveness needs reconfiguring. How you do it is up to you. As you know as well as anyone, there is more than one way to game. The reveal of your quandary is your use of HM. Very few people use HM; I use them maybe once or twice every other Tourney. There are two exceptions to this. First, most gamers consider Mages the best way to take out HR: fight range with range..., but when getting low on Mages then Vallorian Guards will do; at least they have a range. It is only 1 hex but it is enough to breach an obstruction or blocking squad. Secondly, there is a point in the midgame where Vallorian Guards get trained. I have seen gamers rely on these heavily to get up the Spire.
I second the use of buildings like Vallorian Valor, Creepy Clinics, Training Dojos, Grounds of the Orc Strategists if you have enough of them. I don't think Tides, Azure Stables, or Solar Training grounds make enough units per tile to be worth the space, especially Azures when your frogs wont be of much help until they get their second star, and better yet their third.

 

[Moho]

The reveal of your quandary is your use of HM.

I may not be a Spire master but my sole quanday is whether I should start a Beta city or not, nothing else. Although I fight my way to the top of the Spire every week, the number of the troops in my camp is constantly rising.

 

[Moho]

The dogs can quicker attack the mages,

Cerberuses tend to suffer substantial injuries too. Here's an example:

Wave 1:

Wave 2:

 

[Moho]

I don't think Tides, Azure Stables, or Solar Training grounds make enough units per tile to be worth the space, especially Azures when your frogs wont be of much help until they get their second star, and better yet their third.

I for one am impressed by the high number of troops I harvest everyday without putting almost any effort into it.

And they seem to be quite effective. Here are two examples that occur in the last third of the Spire, Laboratory:

First, Faineant Frogs at work. Wave 1:

Wave 2:

And in the next battle, we can see a Faineant Frog and Vallorian Guard combo. Wave 1:

Wave 2:

Not bad for some relatively free one star units.

 

[Moho]

Axe Barbarians and their counterpart Sword Dancers are not great vs. mages in practice

But it seems I can still use them effectively when I need them.

Here's a two wave fight, right before the Spire's last boss. Wave 1:

Wave 2:

Looking at what a great job these guys can do, I think they're adorable.

And here's a Priest and Axe Barbarian combo, in the top third level of the Spire, Laboratory. No Vitality Surge instants are involved (I only use them sparingly, i.e. when I want to make sure I won't lose the second, or third wave. After all, they are free units from the AW, Voices of the Prophet, etc.).

Wave 1:

Wave 2:

 

[Moho]

Very few people use HM; I use them maybe once or twice every other Tourney.

Then I must be one of those few people. Here are some examples why:

Example 1. Wave 1:

Wave 2:

Example 2. Wave 1:

Wave 2:

And here's a last example, with units trained in the barracks. Wave 1:

Wave 2:

 

[Gkyr]

Although I fight my way to the top of the Spire every week, the number of the troops in my camp is constantly rising.

Yes, according to your camp graphic, you will not be running out of troops soon.
You fit one of the HM exceptions: you are at a place where the usefulness of Vallorian Guards outpaces the power of your other units at this point in the chapters.
I have very little experience with human troops - I dropped that city because I did not like fighting with them.
When Drone Riders die off too quickly (every opposing squad seems to prefer to go after them) you might consider getting some Grounds of the Orc Strategist and working with those. They may not yet outpower the Drones at your stage in the tech tree.

 

[Smooper]

I have my opinion on Cerberus. I have a human city. Light melee is hot garbage even when free unless it is all you use. If you use other troops in conjunction with light melee you will lose more of those troops than normal because of the uselessness of light melee. People say "cerberus are good". No they aren't. They cost you supplies to make and clog up your training grounds when you could make dryads or orc strategists instead. They also are the dumbest troop as they will rush far ahead of support troops and will just get surrounded and eliminated before light range or mages can assist.

When playing humans the best troop is a priest, with paladins, crossbowmen and mortars as good compliments on appropriate enemies. Axemen can be used with other troops if you don't mind high losses and in my opinion you should never pay to make them.

My city is going to be mostly priests as soon as the Dragon Abbey and Flying Academy are in the teens for level. Best troop of all the Barrack troops for both human or elves. I will mix in mercenary camp or training grounds troops as they hit 3rd level but no point in using them when my barrack troops are better.

Disclaimer - this is just my opinion, so as you like with your own city.