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    Your Elvenar Team

What, exactly, is the tournament formula? It's got to be here somewhere but I cannot find it???

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
This may not matter once they ever give us the new relic distribution for tournaments that is now on Beta. You will always want to go 10 provinces, at least in your three boost weeks, since province 1 and 10 will be your boost relics.
I dont see how this relates?
 

KonTiki

Member
Also important would be your tail. You do 9×6.....do you go out for KP farther than 9 on the first star? The tail will wrap around and kill lots of troops and demolish goods stockpiles.
Thx for that caution but I don't think I have a tail problem (interesting concept ... 1st time I've heard it). I will go further than 9 provinces every few weeks (always 6* for a given province before moving to the next one) ... but only when I can get away with slouching on the spire (of course the down side is fewer spire rewards). Higher achievement on spire or tourney in a given week, but not both. ;-(

My group is gold spire and typically 4-6 bonus chests in tourney. It's a great team.

Thx again.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
This is just random curiosity....going up six stars on each province one at a time like that....does that alter the cost of the provinces compared to going out 9 tents to one star and then 9 to 2 stars etc?

I have occasionally developed a tail two stars high. Me and my wonders are still small I need the KP.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
I dont see how this relates?

Because you said stopping after 9 provinces, which is not a good thing to do when the new format gets here. And not a good thing to do now, since the 10th province is barely tougher than the 9th. It is not until the 11th province, where the enemy troops become 3*, that the fighting gets tougher.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Because you said stopping after 9 provinces, which is not a good thing to do when the new format gets here.

lol duh moment! Thx
The op said they were getting wiped out at 9ish to six stars so I bounced off that. I wasn't even thinking about the relics.
 

samidodamage

Buddy Fan Club member
Any other suggestions are also solicited.
I think what you're seeing with your troops is the issue with the Spire/tourney formula that rears its head past Ch15 and is even more noticeable after Ch16. Generally the formula will show you how your squad sizes (and thus losses) increase. Research is definitely the driving factor, but there's also the reduction of benefits of those research techs for upgrades of military bldgs that improve troop production. While there are improvements in your production, it does not keep pace with the increased squad sizes/losses like it does in earlier chapters. I don't recall the exact numbers (@SoggyShorts and/or @CrazyWizard one posted them somewhere but I can't find them). The general idea (with random numbers, I think they're close, but maybe not:oops:) is: your research techs will improve your production by 25% from the end of Ch16 to the end of Ch18. The result of doing all the mandatory techs for Ch 16-18 will increase your squad size/losses by 50%. Looks to me like that will make it extremely difficult to keep up. I'm not as far along in Chapter research as you are, so I haven't had any direct experience yet.
I decided to take one city past the end of Ch15 (I usually take a couple months break between chapters; took a year break after Ch15, lol!). I have just unlocked Ch17 in that city and I haven't yet seen a huge difference in my ability to do what I want in Spire and tourney (top of Spire weekly, 5 rounds of 20 provinces weekly). Before the formula changes, I was doing 2 rounds of 50+ provinces (for the kp) and 4-5 rounds of 15-20 provinces. I 100% fight the Spire and 90% fight the tourneys, so I don't have experience with diplomacy/catering costs. I primarily fight manually in both, so that helps reduce my losses considerably as well. I put down one of each type of expiring military boost bldg every week, so one ELR, one MMM and either a DA or UUU. I have lvl 10 Fire (1) and lvl 10 Brown Bear (1). A lvl 21 Time Warp and lvl 10 Polar Bear means I can conserve bldgs and Fire feedings and use them for both Spire and tourney (when my personal real life timing works, lol!) I rarely feed the Brown Bear since we got separate training queues for the 3 military production bldgs, but that may change as my squad sizes rise. I'm one of the luckier ones with the Pet Food RNG in crafting (otherwise I'd be sure the RNG was set up to inflict the lowest return possible for me personally;)) so I don't see an issue if I need to feed it once/week. I was on a once/week schedule before we got the separate training queues. But, as losses increase so much faster than production improves, there may not be enough pet food in all of Elvenar to keep up. Still, I'm going to finish Ch17 (I want the pretty blue dragon AW, lol!) and then reassess continuing to progress*...
*My biggest beef with the change: why in the world would you ever need to assess whether you want to continue to progress in a city building game?
 

KonTiki

Member
This is just random curiosity....going up six stars on each province one at a time like that....does that alter the cost of the provinces compared to going out 9 tents to one star and then 9 to 2 stars etc?

I have occasionally developed a tail two stars high. Me and my wonders are still small I need the KP.
I don't think the cost is altered depending on how you stage it ... but I find the troop types are consistent within a province so it's a little smoother going for me that way ... and given a similar pattern back to back I tend to lose fewer troops.
 

KonTiki

Member
I think what you're seeing with your troops is the issue with the Spire/tourney formula that rears its head past Ch15 and is even more noticeable after Ch16. Generally the formula will show you how your squad sizes (and thus losses) increase. Research is definitely the driving factor, but there's also the reduction of benefits of those research techs for upgrades of military bldgs that improve troop production. While there are improvements in your production, it does not keep pace with the increased squad sizes/losses like it does in earlier chapters. I don't recall the exact numbers (@SoggyShorts and/or @CrazyWizard one posted them somewhere but I can't find them). The general idea (with random numbers, I think they're close, but maybe not:oops:) is: your research techs will improve your production by 25% from the end of Ch16 to the end of Ch18. The result of doing all the mandatory techs for Ch 16-18 will increase your squad size/losses by 50%. Looks to me like that will make it extremely difficult to keep up. I'm not as far along in Chapter research as you are, so I haven't had any direct experience yet.
I decided to take one city past the end of Ch15 (I usually take a couple months break between chapters; took a year break after Ch15, lol!). I have just unlocked Ch17 in that city and I haven't yet seen a huge difference in my ability to do what I want in Spire and tourney (top of Spire weekly, 5 rounds of 20 provinces weekly). Before the formula changes, I was doing 2 rounds of 50+ provinces (for the kp) and 4-5 rounds of 15-20 provinces. I 100% fight the Spire and 90% fight the tourneys, so I don't have experience with diplomacy/catering costs. I primarily fight manually in both, so that helps reduce my losses considerably as well. I put down one of each type of expiring military boost bldg every week, so one ELR, one MMM and either a DA or UUU. I have lvl 10 Fire (1) and lvl 10 Brown Bear (1). A lvl 21 Time Warp and lvl 10 Polar Bear means I can conserve bldgs and Fire feedings and use them for both Spire and tourney (when my personal real life timing works, lol!) I rarely feed the Brown Bear since we got separate training queues for the 3 military production bldgs, but that may change as my squad sizes rise. I'm one of the luckier ones with the Pet Food RNG in crafting (otherwise I'd be sure the RNG was set up to inflict the lowest return possible for me personally;)) so I don't see an issue if I need to feed it once/week. I was on a once/week schedule before we got the separate training queues. But, as losses increase so much faster than production improves, there may not be enough pet food in all of Elvenar to keep up. Still, I'm going to finish Ch17 (I want the pretty blue dragon AW, lol!) and then reassess continuing to progress*...
*My biggest beef with the change: why in the world would you ever need to assess whether you want to continue to progress in a city building game?
There's a lot here ... I really can't comment on much of it because I've been deliberately going slow on chapter research since the tourney change. When it changed I was either just starting 17 or finishing 16. So, about a year just trying to figure out the best mix of support buildings to gain some equilibrium between building troops and maximal progress in spire and tourney without research progress. I'm just now starting to move thru 17 and about 1/3rd the way. I'll find out in the next month or so if this is making a difference.
 

Gkyr

Chef
You are experiencing what we all are - a contraction of our Tourney accomplishment due to the reorganization of the basic Tourney and Spire algorithms setting enemy costs/sizes and a reconfiguring of the buff/debuff algorithm involved in squad-to-squad fighting.

Now that I know that you are in chapter 17 I would guess that your major cost determinants are pretty well set - in terms of expansions and tech progress, both of which cannot be altered.

If you would like to see an improvement in your Tourney outcomes you have only one recourse, as I see it. If you switch to manual fighting only you can save up to 25% of your troops once you get the hang of it. This means an approximate whole extra army once for each round of six encounters in a province.*

*I find your province-approach to polishing off the Tourney fascinating. I would like to try it but I lack the time warp and polar bear at present. What I used to do before the buff/debuff algoritm change, after I made my way to my maximum province by fighting or negotiation, I would wait until the maximum province cool-down opened up before proceeding and then I would fight may way back down from the 20s down to province 1. I usually progressed faster than I used up troops, so I rarely had to replenish my army since the squad size naturally got smaller on the way down the queue.
 

KonTiki

Member
*I find your province-approach to polishing off the Tourney fascinating. I would like to try it but I lack the time warp and polar bear at present. What I used to do before the buff/debuff algoritm change, after I made my way to my maximum province by fighting or negotiation, I would wait until the maximum province cool-down opened up before proceeding and then I would fight may way back down from the 20s down to province 1. I usually progressed faster than I used up troops, so I rarely had to replenish my army since the squad size naturally got smaller on the way down the queue.

I used to do this as well back in the old days and before my timewarp matured ... whether it was real or not, I imagined I was getting better as the provinces ticked off because fewer and fewer troops were being lost in a given round. Psychological thrill for me.

As I see your and others feedback, there are 2 things to do, one involving fighting method and the other involving
AWs. Regarding fighting, your suggestion to manually fight is reasonable and well taken; I will start working on it this week. Regarding AWs, I see 2 tasks. First, I can delete a few more AWs that do not directly or indirectly support my troop building efforts. (I had not fully comprehended the importance of this until looking at the formula ... I have 310 AW levels according to elvenstats/elvenarchitect.) Second, I also need to need to consider what are optimal levels to develop the remaining AWs in order to gain maximum benefit in troop growth/strength while minimizing the effect on the "formula". I wonder if there has been any modeling to determine this? I imagine the optimal level may vary somewhat by AW. Well, that's a problem for another day.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to talk with me about this. It is greatly appreciated and I'm always open to additional suggestions.
 

Gkyr

Chef
It has been impressed upon me that the AW levels are a pale determinant. In total, your 310 levels are a factor* but one assumes that you are not going to get rid of enough of them to make a difference. Still, if you have what most people consider 'useless' AWs (ToS at your chapter level, THM) there would be multiple reasons to rid yourself of them. For me, I have limited myself to 6 of them and 2 are nonmilitary.

I agree with your first resolve to manual fight but your second resolve should be my second resolve, IMHO, this is, to upgrade, upgrade, upgrade in lieu of expanding anymore. Sure, perhaps losing one AW might help in this regard.

*As I recall, 300 AW levels are equivalent to one nonpremium expansion. <-- This was incorrect information circulating around the forum. It has now been illustrated to me that about 5 AW levels are similar to one nonpremium expansion. See Iyapo1's note, below...
 
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Gkyr

Chef
When it comes to manual fighting, strategic retreats are a very powerful tactic. The battle algorithm does not do this and therefore will not do this for you in auto-fights.
 

Gath Of Baal

Well-Known Member
Manual fighting is the way to go especially if you want to have sustained success every week in the tournament. Yes it is extremely time consuming my last tournament I cleared 58 provinces to 6 star and it took me around 3 hours each round to fight it out, but the end results are worth it to me.

I have noticed no increase in tournament difficulty like others in different threads have posted about and if anything the tournament seems to have gotten easier for me for some reason

There are several things you can do to improve your success via manual fighting here are a few of the ones I live by

1) Always preview the battlefield then exit the battle and pick and line your units up accordingly
2) If your first strike units do not get the result you want on the first turn (like outright killing an enemy unit) leave the battle before the enemy gets their turn and start it all over again
3) use a unit to "kite" the enemy around the map while the rest of your units blast them
4) Sometimes it is better on your first turn to stay still, move up down or backwards and let the enemy come to you
5) If you are going to strike first, check what enemy units are going to be able to hit you back and judge if its worth it that turn (your archer might be able to hit and kill the priest first turn but if the 2 orcs standing next to the priest can destroy your unit on their move is it worth it?)
6) Concentrate on killing the most dangerous units first


The amount of troops you will save manual fighting over auto fight is amazing and will leave you with more troops for the next tournament

My 2 cents
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
It has been impressed upon me that the AW levels are a pale determinant. ......

*As I recall, 300 AW levels are equivalent to one nonpremium expansion.
I remember when this was said in this forum. It is not accurate. They were singling out variables in the formula and treating them as independent. The math looked good, it wasnt.

1 wonder level is a pale determinant. Here are a few examples plugged and pulled directly from the spreadsheet:
1st line 120 expansions/200 wonder levels
2nd line 120 expansions/230 wonder levels
3rd line 126 expansions/ 200 wonder levels

30 Wonder levels will increase difficulty more than 6 expansions.

CityRaceDateChapterExpansionsNext Premium CostChapter ProgressTotal AW LevelsT1 Boost%T2 Boost%T3 Boost%maxBMAPVCALForecastSForecastTSSSoTSSoSErrSErr, %TErrTErr, %
17/120E2021-05-15171204,0001200700%700%700%700%409200111096182.43585.8716.53769.0753.2-183.2-4.86%-36.6-4.86%
17/120E2021-05-15171204,0001230700%700%700%700%409230111096530.13787.5756.83769.0753.218.50.49%3.70.49%
17/120E2021-05-15171264,0001200700%700%700%700%409200111156514.23778.2755.03769.0753.29.20.25%1.80.25%
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
@Gkyr
Please dont take that as encouragement to place expansions....you can delete wonders expansions are forever and Inno could change the formula tomorrow.

Also for fighting cities....it is not like you can put down another barracks/training hall/merc camp....and without wonders adding more armories has a limited utility beyond a certain point.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Oh Wise One
Yep, what she showed above. When I was helping figure out the formula, while I was still in chapter 13 and 14, I was getting an AW level increasing squad size by about 7 and an expansion increasing it by about 15-20, depending on type of expansion. Those numbers would obviously vary some from player to player, depending on actual number of each already owned, and which chapter a player is in.
 

Gkyr

Chef
@Gath Of Baal , thank you for the manual fighting overview. Everything you mentioned is what has helped me in the past.
In addition, if facing 2 or three identical opponents (such as light melee, especially), move to the top or bottom of the field and use all of your forces on one enemy, then move again for the second, and the third. I am sure that you do this already.
2) If your first strike units do not get the result you want on the first turn (like outright killing an enemy unit) leave the battle before the enemy gets their turn and start it all over again
With respect to starting all over again, I often revise my lineup, only to find a weakness that I did not see the first time around. Then I re-revise it. I have sometimes done this 3 or 4 times. But...after getting a 'free' shot off against a foe and then restarting, I always find that repeating the free shot does less damage to the enemy squad than the first shot. I do not know if this is intentional on the part of the algorithm or if I am being mislead by chance.
 
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